Bike stored over winter, very weak spark, won't start

[twistit]

I put the bike under a cover outside my apartment for winter and 8 months later it won't start.  I checked the plugs and the spark is very weak on the left cylinder and barely detectable on the right cylinder.  I'm not sure where to be checking for corroded contacts or connections, the wiring diagram doesn't show the on bike location of the various bits in the ignition circuit.  I have some electronics contact cleaner that I can spritz into the key switch and the kill switch.  Where else might there be a bad connection?

[Janx101]

Battery terminals? 

[jdoorn14]

To add to Janx's reply, what's the voltage across the battery terminals? How & where did you store the battery for the winter?

(Someone has to ask the stupid questions.)


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[Funderb]

replace the spark plugs too. they're cheap.

[Janx101]

To add to Janx's reply, what's the voltage across the battery terminals? How & where did you store the battery for the winter?

(Someone has to ask the stupid questions.)


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.... i was kinda hoping he would look at the battery terminals to see if they were corroded.... then wonder 'hmmmm is that thing charged?, got enough fluid? etc etc' ... learning experience! 

[jdoorn14]

To add to Janx's reply, what's the voltage across the battery terminals? How & where did you store the battery for the winter?

(Someone has to ask the stupid questions.)


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.... i was kinda hoping he would look at the battery terminals to see if they were corroded.... then wonder 'hmmmm is that thing charged?, got enough fluid? etc etc' ... learning experience! 

I guess we have different teaching styles. You give a vague clue. I ask leading questions. Both should get them to the same knowledge level in approximately the same time period.


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[twistit]

replace the spark plugs too. they're cheap.

New plugs, a set of regular and a set of iridiums.  Both show weak spark.  Battery is strong.  Was taken out of the bike, kept in the apartment on a charger.

[Funderb]

hmmm, damn...
you got the manual to check the coils and signal generator for resistance? I can cut you out the page and post it if ya want.

[robfriedenberger]

Battery is strong ? I've never see any on any meter? Check voltage before and during cranking. Even a battery on the charger all winter can be dead


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[Janx101]

I guess we have different teaching styles. You give a vague clue. I ask leading questions. Both should get them to the same knowledge level in approximately the same time period.

teaching styles?... ok yeah i get the point ... and granted im often either vague or offtrack ...

.. and lately im a tad grumpy too...

and NOT at twistit ... but 'people in general' ... one of - if not THE first thing/s i check when a vehicle of any type is hard to start or has seeming electrical issues... is the battery! ... fluid levels, confirm voltage with a meter etc .. ive been 'lucky?' over the years and ran into heaps of battery/spark/coil/distributor minor issues... so i tend to check there first ... then fuel age and levels .. then obvious breaks in cables or wires or connections... if cant see a fault then collect as much info as i can .. THEN ask someone...

(old man type rant starting  ) .. whats with folks these days? ... the steering feels funny - flat tyre? .. there is a slapping noise in the front bit - no oil or busted vbelt? .. i can hear a clangy scraping noise in the back - your exhaust is hanging on the ground! 

there should deffo be a basic 'sandbox level' maintenance/checklist course that gets included with every licence test/training!!   

(puff pant wheeeeeeeze - enough rant for now) ...

so we dont know twistit's level of knowledge/experience .. thats cool ... twistit asks for help .. also cool! ... so.... something that kinda sticks out at me... and echoing robfriedenberger too... battery ON charger ALL winter!?!?! ... didnt boil it dry or evap half the fluid or slag the plates? .. which raises a point... IS IT a lead acid battery? ..

and more directly back to the topic

i dont suffer from snow winters here... but have been in some cold country areas at times... sure you keep an eye on the batteries if they are not used... but charging one for a whole season?... if its not holding charge to begin with then its time to change it! (batteries can and do die at the most inopportune times and for some fickle reasons) ... battery inside should be well enough protected from the elements .. and being disconnected from any draining source SHOULD hold its charge! ..

ive always got either jumper leads or a jumper cell unit in my vehicles... just in case .. and it always seems to be from winter to spring (month or so) .. and autumn to winter (again a month or so) that i see a lot more people stranded in car parks or at intersections etc with a dead battery! .. so a quick jump to get them home or to a battery place is often welcome! .. the seasonal nature of the battery problems 'tells' me that for whatever reason a lot of batteries (usually older ones) DONT LIKE going into cold weather times AND dont like warming up again! .. if that makes sense?! ...

the following is NOT me making fun and implying child like understanding!! .. its my phonetic attempt at bike noise!

if the bike is AT ALL (during starting attempt) .. going "rrUUuurrr rr   uuu rrrrRRR rrrrrr ruuuurrr~~~click click click " ... then the battery is had it! .. a well charged and strong battery should be business as usual pretty much straight away ...

if the bike is more going "bidda bidda bidda BIDDA pu pu pu pu bidda bidda etc etc" and then going into the ruur ruur's ... then you may have a poor health battery and also maybe crappy fuel?

checking spark is a good thing .. knowing to check it is excellent! ... good solid contact point against engine case when it was done?...

... hmmm hang on... sudden thought... contact point.... battery was out... i had a starting and electrical problem last year with a brand new AGM battery just after installation.... are both positive and negative leads firm/snug/tight on the battery terminals?? ... even a little loose and you can lose voltage AND fairly quickly slag the battery post into a puddle! ... regardless of battery type .. (because electicity is lazy and doesnt like to jump!! .. it has a tantrum and melts sh!t down instead! )

reading original post again... the on bike locations ... it is a pretty simple harness setup... bundle coming in from both sides of bars and connectors under tank near frame sides .. back a bit and another bundle going to various on engine components and near to foot switches/safeties .. all back into a large bundle that leads to battery .. then a small bundle out the back to the tail end .. more or less

the connector plugs that are above/near the motor ... i really dont like them!! .. too close and too flimsy to be near such a heat source! .. ive replaced both sides on my bike now cos the heat plus some cruddy connections melted the wire end that was inside the exit holes of the connectors (without really melting the insulation plastic on the wires! .. so they were a biatch to find!) .. i had headlight flickering and dying problems though ..

if the tank is off the bike then its not too hard to see where the harness parts lead to... and any other connections that could be suffering corrosion? .. as well as checking how snug the coil ends of the leads are sitting in the coils! .. they can come out without too much pressure if you are not careful!! ... ask me how i know! 

scrolling up .. yep ive gone on another tirade! .. 

but really .. im not a electrical trained person... or a mechanical trained person either! ... ive just spent some random times having to bodge up or temporary repair stuff ... and different times ive had the tank up on the bike ill spend some time just looking around and 'seeing' stuff .. where it goes .. how it looks... did it looks like that last time? ... does it look 'normal' if i havent seen it before...

the bike is a tractor!! ... its not a techno sled! .. nothing here on this forum is really tricky to do... (even though im not game to open my carbs yet!!) .. 'most' cough.... most of the problems members mention are not that serious to replace/repair/reduce ..

personally .. id start by checking the battery with a meter .. then using the manual for colour codes... trace the starter circuit and associates out to where you have spritzed! .. you may notice some odd things on the way! .. i have a few times!

.... now ... any real sparky type people care to have a stab?  .. and im not saying that any other comments so far are not real... !! 

[robfriedenberger]

I'm not sparky by any means but with  out more info we got thing to go on....

[Atesz792]

I'm not sparky by any means but with  out more info we got thing to go on....

sparky, lol

twistit: Have you tried jump starting it from a known-to-be-good battery, eg. your/neighbour's car (while it's NOT running)?

[twistit]

Battery is strong ? I've never see any on any meter? Check voltage before and during cranking. Even a battery on the charger all winter can be dead

Battery is good, cranks the motor fine.  I'm thinking corroded connection somewhere, but wanted to be able to get to all the connections in the start and coil circuit that might need to be brightened up.

[twistit]

Battery is strong ? I've never see any on any meter? Check voltage before and during cranking. Even a battery on the charger all winter can be dead

I got the Clymer manual.  I think it's a corroded connection.  One plug has a weak spark and the other is almost invisible. 

[twistit]

>>.. and lately im a tad grumpy too...

Grumpy can be an advantage in a situation diddled by incompetence...

>>and NOT at twistit ... but 'people in general' ... one of - if not THE first thing/s i check when a vehicle of any type is hard to start or has seeming electrical issues... is the battery! ... fluid levels, confirm voltage with a meter etc .. ive been 'lucky?' over the years and ran into heaps of battery/spark/coil/distributor minor issues... so i tend to check there first ... then fuel age and levels .. then obvious breaks in cables or wires or connections... if cant see a fault then collect as much info as i can .. THEN ask someone...

If battery can turn over motor in order to check spark then battery can make spark is my logic on that one.

>>(old man type rant starting  )

Bet I'm older n' yoo, lol!

> .. whats with folks these days? ... the steering feels funny - flat tyre? .. there is a slapping noise in the front bit - no oil or busted vbelt? .. i can hear a clangy scraping noise in the back - your exhaust is hanging on the ground! 

I was hoping to get info on where on the frame to find connections in the ignition circuit so that I can clean them, connections that are not internal but that are vulnerable to humidity over Winter.

>>there should deffo be a basic 'sandbox level' maintenance/checklist course that gets included with every licence test/training!!   

>>(puff pant wheeeeeeeze - enough rant for now) ...

Chill, dude, here's a beer...

>>so we dont know twistit's level of knowledge/experience .. thats cool ... twistit asks for help .. also cool! ... so.... something that kinda sticks out at me... and echoing robfriedenberger too... battery ON charger ALL winter!?!?! ... didnt boil it dry or evap half the fluid or slag the plates? .. which raises a point... IS IT a lead acid battery? ..

Twistit used to have a Lambretta scooter shop in SF in the 80's and knows that you grip the plastic end of the screwdriver and that the internal combustion engine has a buncha parts that need to be arranged just so....   f%$king semiotics, I shoulda said the battery was on a tender which means that the charger turns off when a full charge is attained. 

>>i dont suffer from snow winters here... but have been in some cold country areas at times... sure you keep an eye on the batteries if they are not used... but charging one for a whole season?... if its not holding charge to begin with then its time to change it! (batteries can and do die at the most inopportune times and for some fickle reasons) ... battery inside should be well enough protected from the elements .. and being disconnected from any draining source SHOULD hold its charge! ..

It did, battery will mess with your head you wire it to your nuts, lol.  I've been known to rant too and know a brother when I see one.

>>ive always got either jumper leads or a jumper cell unit in my vehicles... just in case .. and it always seems to be from winter to spring (month or so) .. and autumn to winter (again a month or so) that i see a lot more people stranded in car parks or at intersections etc with a dead battery! .. so a quick jump to get them home or to a battery place is often welcome! .. the seasonal nature of the battery problems 'tells' me that for whatever reason a lot of batteries (usually older ones) DONT LIKE going into cold weather times AND dont like warming up again! .. if that makes sense?! ...

Winters are mile here in the SF Bay Area and I'm suspecting that there is a connection somewhere in the ignition system that has a molecule thick layer of oxide partially insulating the juice from hitting the plugs at full tilt.

>>if the bike is AT ALL (during starting attempt) .. going "rrUUuurrr rr   uuu rrrrRRR rrrrrr ruuuurrr~~~click click click " ... then the battery is had it! .. a well charged and strong battery should be business as usual pretty much straight away ...

That's called onomatopoeia and means a word that mimicks the sound of something.  I got a book of poetry on Amazon, so I empathize.  But, back to the case at hand, the plugs were out to check the spark and the battery cranked the motor against zero compression no problem.

>>if the bike is more going "bidda bidda bidda BIDDA pu pu pu pu bidda bidda etc etc" and then going into the ruur ruur's ... then you may have a poor health battery and also maybe crappy fuel?

That's another of my worries.  We got 10% gasohol in this neck of the woods and it can shred rubber bits in the carb.   But I think it's a spark problem cuz ether Quick Start blasted into the lunchbox air cleaner did diddly. 

?checking spark is a good thing .. knowing to check it is excellent! ... good solid contact point against engine case when it was done?...

Yes, clean bright metal contact to valve cover.

>>... hmmm hang on... sudden thought... contact point.... battery was out... i had a starting and electrical problem last year with a brand new AGM battery just after installation.... are both positive and negative leads firm/snug/tight on the battery terminals?? ... even a little loose and you can lose voltage AND fairly quickly slag the battery post into a puddle! ... regardless of battery type .. (because electicity is lazy and doesnt like to jump!! .. it has a tantrum and melts sh!t down instead! )

Yah, except when electricity finds a nice conductive path through my fingers...   Terminals are tight.  Big clue is that left plug is merely weak, right plug is almost not there.  I can't actually see it, just can hear a dim "snick" sound.   First connection I'll check will be to the coil.  One could be corroded more than the other.  I was hoping this situation might be part of GS 500 lore and someone would say, "oh, just wire brush xyz contacts.

>>reading original post again... the on bike locations ... it is a pretty simple harness setup... bundle coming in from both sides of bars and connectors under tank near frame sides .. back a bit and another bundle going to various on engine components and near to foot switches/safeties .. all back into a large bundle that leads to battery .. then a small bundle out the back to the tail end .. more or less

>>the connector plugs that are above/near the motor ... i really dont like them!! .. too close and too flimsy to be near such a heat source! .. ive replaced both sides on my bike now cos the heat plus some cruddy connections melted the wire end that was inside the exit holes of the connectors (without really melting the insulation plastic on the wires! .. so they were a biatch to find!) .. i had headlight flickering and dying problems though ..

Yah, I get voodoo glitches like that on my gear too.  I also put out street lights when I drive by them, lol!   And hot metal corrodes faster than cold metal.   

So my plan is to just follow the wiring diagram then and clean every connection in the starter and ignition circuit.

>>if the tank is off the bike then its not too hard to see where the harness parts lead to... and any other connections that could be suffering corrosion? .. as well as checking how snug the coil ends of the leads are sitting in the coils! .. they can come out without too much pressure if you are not careful!! ... ask me how i know! 

Tank is off the bike.  I've never looked at the coils and was not sure if they have thread in wires or are fused in.  If thread in, as you imply, then that's definitely a place to check.  I'm hoping the wires are copper core and not that carbon impregnated nylon shite.  I can always snip off a quarter inch and get some fresh copper in there.

>>scrolling up .. yep ive gone on another tirade! .. 

Not to worry, I can tirade you under the table when it comes to political conspiracy, lollollol

>>but really .. im not a electrical trained person... or a mechanical trained person either! ... ive just spent some random times having to bodge up or temporary repair stuff ... and different times ive had the tank up on the bike ill spend some time just looking around and 'seeing' stuff .. where it goes .. how it looks... did it looks like that last time? ... does it look 'normal' if i havent seen it before...

I feel you.  In the great battle between theory and application, application wins about 90% of the time.

>>the bike is a tractor!! ... its not a techno sled! .. nothing here on this forum is really tricky to do... (even though im not game to open my carbs yet!!) .. 'most' cough.... most of the problems members mention are not that serious to replace/repair/reduce ..

I got the bike because it was a) cherry with low miles and b) had a mere two carburettors and no ECU or computer.  My kind of technology.

>>personally .. id start by checking the battery with a meter .. then using the manual for colour codes... trace the starter circuit and associates out to where you have spritzed! .. you may notice some odd things on the way! .. i have a few times!

Roger that.

>>.... now ... any real sparky type people care to have a stab?  .. and im not saying that any other comments so far are not real... !! 

Thanks a bunch for your help.  I'll let you all know how it shakes out.

[Janx101]

im not gonna re quote and paste in.... it'll start to look like a book! .......

lol !! .. age .. im 43 .. but if you runninga lambretta shop in the 80's ... you should be... hmmm ... about 79 now! 

if you running a bike shop in the past then you are way above me on tech... and probably quite a few others here too! 

the leads are supposed to be bonded into the coils... but i found out that mine came away with just a slipped hand off a wrench and tugged it a bit...  .. other members leads have come out... the 'accepted' temp fix is clip a quarter inch? off the end , dab some dielectric grease on the end and kinda firmly twist it back in there .. gsJack has oft quoted that its a reasonable solution and should last for a year or so .. i did mine once about 18 months to 2 years ago and it hasnt faulted me yet.. 

the motor turn over vs spark available thing... mmm yeah... but how well is the motor turning over? .. slow or like normal? .. but i agree that there should be enough spark to at least make it fire up.. even if it was shitty and stuttering ..

thinking... isnt valve cover painted silver? .. i woulda aimed at the cooling fins? .. maybe an issue? 

onomateo..... what you said... well look at Mr Thesaurus!! ooooh la la!!  (i know the word.. just cant be bothered scrolling up and down lol)

anyway .. the above is just back and forth... new cogitation is required..

if there is enough voltage to turn it over .. but weak spark... i dont see how that could usually be a corroded starter switch or similar... yeah they all connected into the harness but as i understand it.. the coil and plug circuit runs parallel to the starter circuit kinda... it is activated by it but not a direct part of it... besides... if it was all one big section.. turning over well would mean good spark while poor spark would mean not turning over well.... ?? ... so i think its more the lower section from the signal generator to the coils and plugs rather than the 'upper section' with the starter switches etc ..

(as an aside though... that right bar cluster .. if you dont have an actual switch to turn the headlights on/off ... just a little blank plate .. the switch was removed by suzuki... but the wiring remains!! ... when i was searching out a wiring issue i noticed a white gungy contact point .. looked at cable colour .. looked at wiring diagram ... part of the headlight circuit obviously but is also part of the starter switch thing too IIRC .. back in the day when the headlight would turn off while starting... lazy bloody bastards left a couple feet of wire in there that can corrode and frag things up!)

.. what .. (checking) .. Funderb said... checking the coils and signal generator for resistance.... well... i know what signal bit he means (wonderful internet with photos!) .. he means but not how to do it... yet... and incorrect resistance would create hassles... it could be a failing or weak part in there..  but... if you are worried about corrosion .. then what about corrosion or grotty/oily/dampy bits under that cover? ... it has to be spinning fine.. with the motor... but if thats where the power flows up through to the coils?... and its not good... (especially if its had long term humidity in it) .. that micro moisture can destroy your electro path!! ..

dang.. work call out...

final thought for now... corrosion... where the coils are bolted to frame? .. creating bad earth??