Pulse signal gen alternative

[Kevin142001]

So im looking to replace the pulse signal generator on my 2004 gs500f. A while back i sqw some used ones online for 50. Now i cant find anyone. A new one is 150 which i thi k is outrqgeous for such a simple small part. I was wondering if anyone know if a sig gen from another bike such as a gsxr500 would work. If there were other suzuki models with similar enough ones that it would work with the icu and the sizing was the same.

Il end up getting the new one if i have to, it will probably be what i end up doing but. If anyones had success using one from a different bike is like to hear about it.

[Bluesmudge]

What year is your bike? Im pretty sure the newer style signal generator is unique to the GS500. If you have the older style signal generator with two pick ups ('89 - '00) then a GS450 signal generator may work as well. I've never tried it off a GS450 but the bottom ends of those two bikes are so similar, most parts are interchangeable.

[sledge]

I will confirm that 

The part number does not cross reference to any other models.

Try googling it, someone might be selling one off cheap somewhere.


3311001D00

[Kevin142001]

2004 its the one with the signal advancer. I know that technically suzuki will never endorse ones from other bikes being used but the technology from the gsxrs and other models are the same as far as i know. A magnent is used to send an electrical pulse to the icu.

The two reasons why it wont work. The diameter of the inside hole and the spacing of the signal gen from the teeth on the spinning gear dont match up.(its not the same size as the gs500s 04 one) and the second reason, the stength of the s
Pulse sent is some how different and the icu wont recognize it or might bw damages by it(doubt it will be too strong to so that)

Thats just me guessing though. The part numbers arent the same im looking to see if anyones used a nonidentical signal generator with success. Even if they had to machine it to shape a little bit. Id like to hear about that process too. Used sig gens are the only thing reasonably priced. 150 for a new magnent on a steel plate with two copper wires coking out of it is insane. This stuff was probably made by the thousands 10 years ago in a machine shop by a guy making minimum wage making one a minute workes on it for 3 days got paid maybe 100-200$ for those three days the things cost 5$ a piece to make. They are all sitting in a warehouse now so some company can make 20,000. I dont care how specialized or unique that part is its just not worth 150$ plus shipping. Thats like paying 50$ a screw.

Anyways if noones heard of anyone successfully doing this i just have to buy a new one. Cant find any used ones. Thanks guys for the replies.

[Bluesmudge]

I found one for $50 on eBays. There is also your local craigslist, your local bike breaker, and asking on here. There is a guy in the for sale section parting out an '05+ motor; I would assume that engine has the part you need. Don't pay $150 for a new one, there are too many cheap GS500 parts out there.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Suzuki-500-GS-GS500-F-GS-500-F-Used-Engine-Pick-Up-Pulser-2006-SB43-/401153082751?hash=item5d6696457f:g:G2wAAOSwyKxXhXEY&vxp=mtr

[mr72]

never mind. deleted.

[mr72]

After looking at this part on my own bike, it's clear that most of the replacement pickup coils won't work because of the rotor's relationship to the pole pieces.

It might be possible to retrofit something to work with the right mechanical adapter, but I would be surprised if it would fit under the cover.

[sledge]

I think you need to do some research on hall-effect ignition systems before anything else. Replicating the physical/mechanical aspects would've relatively easy, the biggest issue I see is physical space but the electronic side of things would be far more involved. Can you say for certain your cheap eBay item would work perfectly with the stock ignition control module?....at this stage I think not.

When the GS5 was launched this ignition system was in its infancy. Latter systems have evolved and become universal between certain makes and models this particular system didn't and is unique to the GS5...hence the cost.

[mr72]

I think you need to do some research on hall-effect ignition systems before anything else. Replicating the physical/mechanical aspects would've relatively easy, the biggest issue I see is physical space but the electronic side of things would be far more involved. Can you say for certain your cheap eBay item would work perfectly with the stock ignition control module?....at this stage I think not.

I think for whatever reason you have made the mistake of greatly underestimating the experience and intelligence of another person. If you are not interested in this topic, move along. I can assure you I know what I am doing when it comes to electromagnetics.

[sledge]

I am interested, very interested

On the basis you claim to know exactly what you are doing can we assume then that the alternative pickups WILL function with the stock ICM and provide exactly the same performance?

I personally  haven't a clue so am more than happy to hear what an expert may have to say.

[mr72]

I am interested, very interested

I'm going to pretend to not detect your sarcasm.

On the basis you claim to know exactly what you are doing can we assume then that the alternative pickups WILL function with the stock ICM and provide exactly the same performance?

You can't know anything about any of them until you test it. Or if you know the design characteristics you can make an educated guess, which will suffice to help narrow down the number of different alternatives that must be tested.

Or you can design one from the ground up to work exactly as you want, or that works much like the one it is replacing, or maybe even both.

There are a lot of assumptions you have to make about a 30+ year old Japanese motorcycle design, and as any engineer would do, you pick the solution with the least assumptions required and then eliminate assumptions through testing as much as possible.

Or, another alternative is to just abandon the original design and do something else entirely, either by transplant/retrofit or design something new.

I personally  haven't a clue...

Noted.

[sledge]

Much as I welcome your comments they are just obvious statements. However my question remains. Will your alternative pickups work with the stock control unit?

If not.....why? And how can they be made to work?

[mr72]

Much as I welcome your comments they are just obvious statements. However my question remains. Will your alternative pickups work with the stock control unit?

If not.....why? And how can they be made to work?

Again, there's no way to know whether any part will work until it's been tested. You pick a component in the right DCR range and hope that it is wound with the same gauge wire with the same approximate coil dimensions so it has the same approximate sensitivity as the original part and give it a whirl. Adjust gap slightly to accommodate slightly different signal levels. A few tests you can do to the part in the bike and the part in your hand to verify sensitivity differences and even measure the inductance before mounting up and potentially plan for differences in sensitivity and the pole-piece-to-rotor gap required for the new part. There are a ton of these parts advertised as 450 or 500 ohms and there's a reasonably good chance that one of them can be made to work. This is not rocket science or a precision instrument. If you don't try and use a part that is substantially different in construction from the original (like different magnet material or size, different wire gauge, very different coil geometry, large difference in turns of wire, etc.) then the chances are the replacement part will at least function.

The one quirk that you might have to account for is the width of the "blade" type pole piece in the GS500 stock pickups, where most replacements that might be compatible will have a round pole piece that is maybe 1/2 the width (eyeballing). This reduces the aperture of the pickup so I think I'd make up a steel slug the same width as the stock pickup's pole piece and attach it to the new part so the dwell and rising edge of the induced wave are close to the same.

After having mine apart again today, I think the aftermarket/alternate parts probably can't be made to work due to clearances with the side cover and other spatial constraints.

There are other modifications you could make that MIGHT make an alternate part work more simply (modify the rotor). If there were no OEM replacement parts available, it would probably be worth it.

[sledge]

First thing I would do..... Before even contemplating how to make a non OEM pick-up physically fit a GS5 or how to test it is determine if its the right type. ie: ..inductive or Hall-effect and given your credentials I have to say I am surprised you haven't as yet mentioned something as critical and that the two systems are not compatible. Why worry about mounting if there is no way on earth the thing is going to actually work with the stock ignition system?

As for all the guesswork and trial and error you suggest, and assuming a compatable non OEM item could be made to fit wouldn't it be easier to hook up a scope and analyise and  compare the waveforms and the timebases each pickup generates. You could even use this method to determine if your suspect pickups are actually serviceable instead of relying on very unreliable hot/cold static resistance tests....or am I just thinking too hard? This is how approved service agents with factory test/service equipment do it so maybe not 

My conclusion?
You know a bit, but not as much as you think. I am sure some people will be impressed and dote on every word you say but to them I say...get a second opinion before committing, because people like you can be dangerous.

[mr72]

First thing I would do..... Before even contemplating how to make a non OEM pick-up physically fit a GS5 or how to test it is determine if its the right type. ie: ..inductive or Hall-effect

...which is irrelevant if it won't physically fit. But you make a good point.

As for all the guesswork and trial and error you suggest, and assuming a compatable non OEM item could be made to fit wouldn't it be easier to hook up a scope and analyise and  compare the waveforms and the timebases each pickup generates.

Easier, if you have an oscilloscope to test with. But probably unnecessary, given the extremely wide tolerances for OEM manufactured parts. But sure, if I was designing something from the ground up, this is exactly what I'd do, but I'm not, so I won't. Actually I gave up working on my own problem anyway, especially since we have a gadfly who is determined to ensure we don't get to a practical answer to this question on the forum. I'm just not in the mood to argue about it. I'll do what I want and I don't care what you want to argue about on the forum.

You know a bit, but not as much as you think. I am sure some people will be impressed and dote on every word you say but to them I say...get a second opinion before committing, because people like you can be dangerous.

That's the first good advice I have heard you give. Get a second opinion. I'm an engineer, an inventor, and an avid tinkerer. But I'm not an automotive engineer, so I have practical experience working on these things limited to my own personal projects with my own cars (and now, a motorcycle). So absolutely, I recommend everyone get a second opinion.

[qcbaker]

...
You know a bit, but not as much as you think. I am sure some people will be impressed and dote on every word you say but to them I say...get a second opinion before committing, because people like you can be dangerous.

Careful you don't fall off that high horse and hurt yourself. Why don't you actually suggest an alternative course of action instead of just being an @$$hole? All mr72 has done is say "hey, this might work, but you'd have to test it first to be sure" and your responses have been ostensibly about how you think his idea wont work, but really all you're doing is asserting that you're smarter or more knowledgeable than he is. You haven't given a reason as to why you seem to think testing his idea would be "dangerous." I don't claim to know much about ignition systems, so I can't really make an assessment, but since you fancy yourself an authority on this, what is your problem with this idea besides stating "it might not work, and you cant guarantee it will work until testing it?"

[mr72]

Well I was just brainstorming here, trying to help others who are in a pinch finding the right parts. All this noise and the GS500 has ordinary inductive pickups that are cheap and available everywhere and it's not rocket science to modify the rotor to make off the shelf $10 parts work or to find space under the cover to make the off the shelf parts work without modifying the rotor. It's hardly "dangerous". Worst thing that happens is the bike won't run, you break the (already broken, if you're trying this) OEM signal generator while trying to retrofit and wind up out a couple hours time and $20 in parts, or you really screw something up bad and the bike starts and runs and you break the rotor AND the signal generator so you are out >$20 in parts and your pride is bruised.

But you don't need an oscilloscope or an EE degree to get inductive pickups to trigger the GS500 ignitor. You do need patience and ingenuity along with a sense of adventure, which some on this forum seem determined to stamp out.

[MichaelM3]

... You do need patience and ingenuity along with a sense of adventure...

Now you're talking about my kind of Universe. Could not agree more mr72.
One of the reasons I follow these threads is for the 'narrative'. I like to see people having a red hot go, fessing up to their failings, and then succeeding. Other than doing it myself, that's how I prefer to learn.

[mr72]

Now you're talking about my kind of Universe. Could not agree more mr72.

Thanks!

Other than doing it myself, that's how I prefer to learn.

Well I think that's one of the most important benefits of a forum like this. Each participant can benefit from others' hard-fought trial and error successes and failures without having to experience them for themselves, all while being able to affirm the thinking that led to those trials, giving credibility to the result.

And, it can be kind of entertaining as well.

[Kevin142001]

I just figures one of two things. That size wont measure up, or the resistances or stengrh of the magnent. Or the amperage of the signal generated wont be enough for the icu to fire. Comes down electrical or spatial. It could be machined or modifies or fit. I assume other suzuki bikes like older gsxrs that dont have computers probably have a pulse generator working at similar tolerances as far as the pulse goes. As there is no computer i assume the signal is generic analog. Literally any random pulse with enough juice will work to fire the plugs. Sufficient strength burst pulses. But i probably know less about this than everyone else here.

I just went and bought that used one linked further up