Stay Safe out there

[juan_knightstand]

I know this goes without saying, seems like most riders apart of this community have good heads on there shoulders. But I just feel the need to say something. Not sure if you guys are aware of the incident that's happened in South Carolina last week (heres the link for those of you who don't know: http://metro.co.uk/video/officer-kills-biker-ramming-road-1454285/?ito=vjs-link ). I don't even care to judge or discuss if the rider was correct or incorrect in his actions. I just want to remind everyone to gear up.

ATGATT
ATGATT
ATGATT

Even though I've only been apart of this community for a short while, You guys have been extremely helpful with your advice when answering my questions. So in return, for the love of whatever higher power you believe in, if any. Please at least where a helmet when riding. You can get a new ass if your first one gets turned into ground beef, you can even get a prosthetic if your arm is chopped off. But you can't get another brain. And brains are best used when inside a skull and not splattered all over the road.

Stay safe out there.

[Watcher]

I know you said you didn't wish to really discuss the video, but how can we not?  IMHO "Kills biker by ramming" is a little harsh, nothing to me seem malicious on the part of the officer.  Granted, contact with the motorcyclist is almost assured to make the motorcyclist crash, but I didn't see the cop run over the biker nor really plaster him hard.  He gave him a very gentle bump in which the rider had basically no reaction, then appears to attempt to get along side him to box him in.  I don't see any swerve into the rider, and it's hard to tell if the officer sped up to hit again but it DOES look like the biker was downshifting in preparation to overtake the car.  Poor downshifting technique WILL cause engine braking and slow the bike, and it looks like the rider stepped onto the shifter several times which would result in severe engine braking.
Whether or not poor downshifting caused the rider to slow and collide with the officer at this point is irrelevant, the only choice he had in that position to not crash would be to apply the brakes.  He didn't, and the rest, as they say, is history.

So, is it "officer kills biker by ramming"?  Or is it "biker dies in crash after being rammed by officer"?  This right here is how the media can fuel fires and tension in communities...




Anyway, I'm a huge advocate of ATGATT.  Gear can be pricey, but it's nothing when compared to the cost of a hospital visit or funeral, not to mention the emotional trauma that severe injury or death can cause.
You can spend as little as $500 and have a full set of protective gear: helmet, jacket, pants, gloves, boots...  The ambulance ride to the ER will cost a couple grand...

[juan_knightstand]

Agree with you 100% the cop didn't speed up to "ram" him, but the downshift caused the bike slow down. Thats the reason I made that comment about not wanting to address the video. I can see both sides to this argument. But who am I to judge how he wants to live his life. If running from the cops at 110 mph is what does it for you, then keep doing your thing. But be smart about it, don't endanger innocent bystanders, make sure you perfect your riding skills and most importantly protect yourself. 

[Endopotential]

It would be a tough case to defend the police. 

Bumping the bike was the proximate cause for him to lose control, which lead to his death.  He may have been a scumbag on weed; he may have been trying to downshift poorly; yes he was posing a risk to other people on the road but it doesn't look like this situation could justify what proved to be lethal force.

Even with ATGATT, a half helmet vs a telephone pole at 90mph isn't going to turn out well...

[Watcher]

It would be a tough case to defend the police. 

Bumping the bike was the proximate cause for him to lose control, which lead to his death.
... it doesn't look like this situation could justify what proved to be lethal force.

I see what you're saying, but is this really correlatable as the direct cause of death?
I can serve someone a pizza, they choke on it and die, and do you blame the waiter?  Serving him the pizza directly led to him choking.  Was serving the pizza "lethal force"?

I know that's a very extreme example, and no court in the world would condemn the server in that case, but it is a remedial way to break down that logic.

He didn't attempt to kill the rider.  He attempted to stop the rider.  He COULD have really ruined that rider's day during the first bump and instead straight up rammed him, it is clear the officer was trying to stop him with force but knew what could happen.
He didn't run him over, he didn't drive along side and swerve into him, he didn't pull out a gun and shoot him...

I've seen drivers do worse to riders and get their actions defended.  Like that recent video from Texas where a driver swerved into a rider overtaking on a double yellow.  Most people (and the courts) defended the rider, but plenty of drivers had the thought that "if the rider wasn't behaving an ass then the driver wouldn't have done that."
It's interesting that as soon as it's police the public tends to take the position against the officer.  I've seen police do wrong, but I am hesitant to just point a finger.

[SirHansford]

That video was all sorts of wrong on both sides.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes comes to mind.  That being said, I totally agree,  ATGATT all the way.  I'd rather be a little smelly from sweat than be a lot smelly from decay.

[qcbaker]

It's interesting that as soon as it's police the public tends to take the position against the officer.  I've seen police do wrong, but I am hesitant to just point a finger.

Well, the public tends to hold police to a higher standard of behavior. So, people might be less likely to let an on-duty LEO get away with something people might be willing to shrug off if it were a civilian. Just a thought.

Anyway, in this particular case it's hard to say, IMO. If the rider slowed unexpectedly due to a bad downshift, and the officer unintentionally hit him as a result, then the rider's death really isn't the officer's fault. I'd call that an unfortunate accident. But, if the officer was attempting something like a PIT maneuver and actively trying to bump the rider, then I think that qualifies as excessive force, if not something worse. Maybe manslaughter? I'm not sure what the charge would be exactly, given that in that case, there was intent to cause harm (causing the rider to crash definitely qualifies as "harm" to me), but I doubt the officer intended to actually kill the rider. Anyway, I think trying to do a PIT on a fleeing motorcyclist is actually against the law, but I'm not 100% sure on that. In any case, if he intended to ram the biker, then the officer is in the wrong.

Some police departments actually have a strict "no high-speed chase" rule, specifically because of situations like this. Often, it's much too dangerous for the officers, the suspects (speeding and/or reckless driving/riding is a douchey and dangerous thing to do, but doesn't warrant a death sentence), and the public for the officer to be chasing someone at really high speeds on public roads.

[Endopotential]

[ I can serve someone a pizza, they choke on it and die, and do you blame the waiter?  Serving him the pizza directly led to him choking.  Was serving the pizza "lethal force"? [/quote]

Watcher, now if you cooked up a pizza with broken glass and arsenic AND forced the person to eat it, then yes that would be lethal force.  And a more apt comparison.
Not to mention that you'd be one heck of a dangerous cook!

Unless you bump a parked bike, anything at higher speed could be potentially lethal.

As Qcbaker mentioned, there was no need to drag out a high speed pursuit when they had his ID and license plate and could track him down later.  No need to endanger other people on the street, not to mention the life of a young biker, and ruining the life and career of a police officer.

[J_Walker]

Helmet saved my life, or a lot of headache [pun intended] but when I started riding 5+ years ago. [wow its already been 5 years...] I read over and over again, helmet, always. and jacket+gloves+good boots [I still ride without roadrash proof pants and just leather boots that cover my ankles]

one day i'd like to get a 1 piece everday riding suit, as ive had roadrash on my legs 3 times now.. not exactly fun. 

[Watcher]

If the end goal was to end the chase as quickly as possible for the sake of public safety, I can see where the officer would think that causing the rider to crash could be for the "greater good".  But you are right that disengaging may have been a more appropriate response.

I still think that "cop kills biker by ramming" is stretching the truth, but I can also see how that was maybe a poor choice by the officer.

But we don't know the whole story.  Who was this man?  Was he just evading police because it was a stolen bike or something?  Or was it a case where if he made it home he was going to murder his wife and kids?
Would that situation add justification to the officer's actions?

Edit: I clicked on the "read more".  Apparently he was being pulled over for speeding and fled because of possession of marijuana.

But quoted straight from the article:
"Berkely County police said the crash was not deliberate and happened because the bike had slowed down dramatically after changing to the wrong gear."

So what I inferred from the video is echoed in the police statement.

... ive had roadrash on my legs 3 times now.. not exactly fun. 

Dude, go get yourself some riding jeans at least!  CycleGear has some deals going right now, Kevlar lined with padded knees for like $80.

[qcbaker]

I still think that "cop kills biker by ramming" is stretching the truth, but I can also see how that was maybe a poor choice by the officer.

Well, if the cop did intentionally hit the bike, then "cop kills biker by ramming" is technically what happened, so it isnt really stretching the truth at all. But, if the "ram" was just the cop rear-ending the bike due to it slowing suddenly, then I think you're right in that the title is inaccurate.

But we don't know the whole story.  Who was this man?  Was he just evading police because it was a stolen bike or something?  Or was it a case where if he made it home he was going to murder his wife and kids?
Would that situation add justification to the officer's actions?

According to the article the cops "wanted to stop the biker as he was suspected of speeding." So, I don't think the police were chasing him for any other reason than that. If they had a better reason, you would think they would come out with it right away to try and shift blame away from the officer.

But I guess the question you're really asking is "Is there any other situation in which intentionally wrecking the rider would be justified?". For the situations you proposed, to me, the answer is no. If the bike was stolen, trying to kill the rider is excessive force. If the rider was known to be on his way to kill his family, the better course of action is to follow him and attempt to subdue once he parks the bike. He can't very well murder his family while going 100mph down the freeway, he'll have to stop at some point. At which point, the cop can more safely attempt the arrest. The only situation I can think of where intentionally ramming and potentially killing the rider is justified is if the rider were actively shooting at people while riding or something like that. At that point, the best move is to stop him at all costs.

[J_Walker]

... ive had roadrash on my legs 3 times now.. not exactly fun. 

Dude, go get yourself some riding jeans at least!  CycleGear has some deals going right now, Kevlar lined with padded knees for like $80.

Problem is I'm a skinny dude, they fit like a pillow case. and I need to wear BLACK pants for school. and frankly don't wanna bring a pair to change. hence why I want a 1 piece over suit.. but the 1 piece that fits me right is 300 dollars.. here; https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/joe-rocket-survivor-suit#size_chart_tab

[Watcher]

... ive had roadrash on my legs 3 times now.. not exactly fun. 

Dude, go get yourself some riding jeans at least!  CycleGear has some deals going right now, Kevlar lined with padded knees for like $80.

Problem is I'm a skinny dude, they fit like a pillow case. and I need to wear BLACK pants for school.

https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/street-steel-oakland-jeans

[J_Walker]

... ive had roadrash on my legs 3 times now.. not exactly fun. 

Dude, go get yourself some riding jeans at least!  CycleGear has some deals going right now, Kevlar lined with padded knees for like $80.

Problem is I'm a skinny dude, they fit like a pillow case. and I need to wear BLACK pants for school.

https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/street-steel-oakland-jeans

those aren't 80 dollars, and they don't have my size..

[Watcher]

Problem is I'm a skinny dude, they fit like a pillow case. and I need to wear BLACK pants for school.

https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/street-steel-oakland-jeans

those aren't 80 dollars, and they don't have my size..

What about these?

https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/bilt-iron-workers-cargo-pants

[rg500gamma]

always  pull over  , why   ?   I was late to a wedding on my 1000r  ,  industry sheriff  puts  red lights on me  , I pull over  ,  no ticket  ,  told  them  I know I was going a little over  speed limit ,  they told me  that's a hot bike your gonna get pulled over ,  so what is the worst thing that can happen if you pull over  just  get a ticket .  one other time  put  Bassani  exhaust  on my gpz 550 ,  got into 3rd Gear  , ford mustang highway patrol puts red lights on me , pulled over  I told them I was late to get to work  ,  gave me a ticket  for excessive noise  .  So  for me  I will always  pull over . 

[J_Walker]

Problem is I'm a skinny dude, they fit like a pillow case. and I need to wear BLACK pants for school.

https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/street-steel-oakland-jeans

those aren't 80 dollars, and they don't have my size..

What about these?

https://www.cyclegear.com/gear/bilt-iron-workers-cargo-pants

closer, but remember I'm skinny.. my waist size is 29.    and with those i'd still have to wear frogtogs over them.. know of any cheap OVER pants that are southern rain proof and have some "rash protection"? high vis yellow is a bonus. 

[Darkstar]

Any insurance company investigating this would conclude that the driver was at fault. Cop or no cop, gear or no gear, the driver is responsible for controlling his vehicle. He driver knew damn well that he was riding too close to a motorcyclist.

[Watcher]

.. know of any cheap OVER pants that are southern rain proof and have some "rash protection"? high vis yellow is a bonus. 

Don't think I do.  Maybe your original idea of a one piece step-in suit is best.  Seems like a hassle, though.  When I used to have to wear slacks to work on occasion I would wear my overpants.  I was lucky enough that we had a little coat closet and I brought in a pants hanger just for me to use for these days, hang my pants up next to my jacket.

I couldn't imagine carrying around a full suit into school and dealing with it over multiple classes...

[J_Walker]

.. know of any cheap OVER pants that are southern rain proof and have some "rash protection"? high vis yellow is a bonus. 

Don't think I do.  Maybe your original idea of a one piece step-in suit is best.  Seems like a hassle, though.  When I used to have to wear slacks to work on occasion I would wear my overpants.  I was lucky enough that we had a little coat closet and I brought in a pants hanger just for me to use for these days, hang my pants up next to my jacket.

I couldn't imagine carrying around a full suit into school and dealing with it over multiple classes...

its only 1 class, all day. I have a spot in the office for my helmet/jacket/gloves now. I wouldn't mind leaving a hanger there.