Lean angle of GS

[alpo]

4. The biggest thing keeping me from leaning more and taking ordinary road curves faster is uncertainty about the road surface. I know I can lean the bike and take turns much quicker but around here the twisty roads also have crummy surface with lots of patches and often have gravel or sand on the road. My fear is I'll get into a turn too fast and run into some gravel or a patch that upsets the suspension that I couldn't see when entering the turn.

Been there, done that. I hit some gravel in a turn on a 25mph road going 70+. It smacked me down so fast all I remember is sliding across the pavement. It's safest to keep the really fast riding to the track where the surface is known. 

[user11235813]

@Alpo, what you say is certainly true, but it's not that simple, because it's just as easy to low side on some sand or gravel taking a turn at a normal speed. Just riding normally most of us who like to ride are going to take virtually all turns at faster than signposted and that's not being a boy racer, just normal riding. So bearing that in mind it's better rather than give unrealistic advice to suggest that before doing some 'spirited' riding on the open road, to survey the road bother directions until you understand it. That's not to say some surprise gravel can't suddenly appear.

While doing some more research yesterday I have come across the Keith Code "A Twist of the Wrist II" DVD, after watching the first 5 minutes I can see already it's going to be excellent.

[user11235813]

Here's a clip from the DVD, must get some motorcycle training wheels.

https://youtu.be/LDA-K9TK6u8

[Watcher]

ATOTW II is an amazing video that's occasionally on YouTube both in it's entirety and it's "meat and potatoes" form with the B rate acting bits taken out.  It often gets flagged, so no link lasts long, but it's something every rider should watch.

It does deal with a lot of track techniques, but all of those techniques translate into road riding.  IIRC one of the first things they talk about is target fixation, and use a road scenario to frame the lesson.

[user11235813]

@Watcher, there was one bit that was a real eye opener, getting off the gas mid turn makes the bike stand up! which, as they point out is counter intuitive and the reasoning is that the weight transfers to the front, compresses the forks an the weight goes to the inside of the front tyre setting up a counter steer that stands the bike up and runs wide. phew!

[Watcher]

@Watcher, there was one bit that was a real eye opener, getting off the gas mid turn makes the bike stand up!

Sometimes I demo this, but I always mention this to my new riders.
I set it up where I ask "what if you enter a turn too fast and start to run wide?"
To which students mostly answer "use the brakes and slow down".
They should remember that using the brakes in a turn is a bad idea, so I remind them and ask what else they can do.
"Roll off the throttle to slow down."
Then I ask what the front of the bike does when you slow down, looking for an answer that the weight shifts forward, and explain this concept that slowing down in a turn makes you run wider.
"If you can't slow down what can you do?"
"Roll ON the throttle."   
It's funny how most people reason, if you can't slow down you can always speed up, right?  I mean, they're not exactly wrong, but a new rider getting on the gas in a turn that's already running wide is NOT productive!  I usually ask "So you've entered a turn too fast and your solution is to go faster!?"
We all have a quick chuckle.

Now I reveal the solution.  "It's not a good idea to change your speed at all once you're in the turn, if you make a mistake and start to run a little wide the best thing you can do is look deeper into the turn and press that inside handgrip a little more.  Trust your tires."  Then I demo a large curve on a Supermoto and try to get it really leaned over.

[alpo]

Now I reveal the solution.  "It's not a good idea to change your speed at all once you're in the turn, if you make a mistake and start to run a little wide the best thing you can do is look deeper into the turn and press that inside handgrip a little more.  Trust your tires."  Then I demo a large curve on a Supermoto and try to get it really leaned over.

This.

If you're in too hot lean more.

Body position is everything. I took an advanced riding course years ago. One of the instructors was a petite lady. One of the other riders was on a full-dress Harley. He claimed it would not corner well; she hopped on it and was dragging her knee around the figure eight. It was both amusing and enlightening.

[Watcher]

she hopped on it and was dragging her knee around the figure eight. It was both amusing and enlightening.

No video?  That sounds amazing 

Yeah.  The least maneuverable piece of the motorcycle/rider combo is usually the rider.

[The Buddha]

Even more unexpected things happen on the street. When I ride I'm always thinking about traffic around me: They're out to kill me. I can't count the times people have pulled out in front of me. Being able to react quickly has saved my life.

This is 100% true. I think it was Derrick Hill - He got killed in a road accident, after years of F1, and I think it was the same day he got his street driving license. Street is far scarier than the track on some occasions. The higher and higher racing classes are better and better, of course the local clubs to entertain the crowds let the 125's out first, and 30 sec later let out the 250's, then the 500's. To encourage "passing" even though its across classes. Then of course a 125 could get in the way of Mick Doohan ending his career.
Cool.
Buddha.

[alpo]

No video?  That sounds amazing 

It was! Unfortunately everyone was standing around with their gear on and no cameras.

Edit: I looked up the course and they have a picture of a similar situation. Check it out half way down this page.
I can't say enough good about their courses. Highly recommended!

[user11235813]

@alpo,

Here's a rather silly photo from that page!  The rider doesn't need to be dragging their knee in this situation, it's just a half cheek off the seat situation, throwing your knee down unnecessarily is counter productive as it removes flexibility and if you do it on the street you look like a dickhead. Knee dragging is for actually hanging off the bike and you have no choice.

In this case his left arm is well bent and his back is curving to the opposite way he's hanging off. This is what they usually teach you not to do on these types of courses.





If you're gonna be a knee dragon, then you'll be expecting to hang off like below, otherwise you're just fooling yourself pretending that you have skills you do not possess which is a sure way to get into some serious trouble. If your balls aren't over your calf then you needn't be dragging your knee.

[Watcher]

The rider doesn't need to be dragging their knee in this situation, it's just a half cheek off the seat situation, throwing your knee down unnecessarily is counter productive as it removes flexibility and if you do it on the street you look like a dickhead. Knee dragging is for actually hanging off the bike and you have no choice.

In this case his left arm is well bent and his back is curving to the opposite way he's hanging off. This is what they usually teach you not to do on these types of courses.

Wow, you're being really presumptuous here.

The whole "knee dragging is for {when} you have no choice" is false.  Hanging off isn't a balls-to-the-walls-fast technique only, you can be at a relatively low speed and still decrease your turning radius by hanging to the inside.
You can't really tell how fast he's going either.  Now, I've watched enough Gymkhana to know you don't need to drag knee to get the bike super low at 1st/2nd gear speeds, so I might concede that it might not necessary for the pictured rider to be doing so.  I'll also concede that the rider is "crossed up".  But look at them, they obviously aren't an instructor, so this is likely an inexperienced rider practicing the techniques, and much like anything else motorcycle the method to success is to start slow and work your way fast.

You're also overlooking one of the core reasons why riders drag knee in the first place, and that's the knee down acts as a gauge for max lean angle.  Once you're on the puck that's basically as far down as you can go.  Hanging off is the best method to really learn the bike while minimizing the danger of low-siding due to ground-clearance.



As for "looking like a dickhead" on the streets, there's a big difference between "looking like" and "riding like".
Someone with proper technique and getting a knee down, like your second pictured rider, is likely "riding like a dickhead," presumably going way too fast on public roads.

This person "looks like a dickhead" to me.

[alpo]

This person "looks like a dickhead" to me.

LMAO! 

Like Watcher said, dragging the knee is a result of getting off the bike, touching the pavement to determine the lean angle and going around the corner. Personally I don't like dragging a knee all the way around a corner - when possible I'll let it touch down to judge the lean angle then lift it a little, so it barely skims the pavement. Sometimes when you're way over you can't help dragging it around a corner. What's really fun is when you're way over and drag an elbow.

Many people don't get off the bike when cornering on the street. That's OK. However, you have a lot more options when your body position is correct even though onlookers may scoff at the "boy racer". I prefer to have options in the case of contingencies instead of worrying about what other people think. Once you get a feel for good body position it is very comfortable, stable and makes for a safer ride.

I'm no pro, but have ridden with them. Talk about a humbling experience!

[Kookas]

I was actually taught to hang off to go around the trumpet part of a junction by my instructor when learning for my licence test! I feel like a right wannabe doing it sometimes but it actually makes the corners a lot easier.

[user11235813]

I've never really paid much attention to my knee as I usually don't need to hang off much on the road. However I am surprise to discover today that when I did check what I do I find that when I've got my bum crack off the seat I notice that instead of my knee being down I actually keep it pressed tight against the tank which feels right! It feels that my body is stabilised better this way and it appears to be completely unnecessary to stick my knee out.

[Watcher]

when I've got my bum crack off the seat I notice that instead of my knee being down I actually keep it pressed tight against the tank

That's how you end up "crossed up," much like the rider you chastised.

Bum down but knee up points your hips out of the turn, the opposite of what you want.

For the street upper body is all you really need off the center of the bike, if you're going to get your crack off the seat you should/ be sticking your knee out.

[user11235813]

@Watcher  That's how you end up "crossed up," much like the rider you chastised.

Dragging your knee on the ground unnecessarily, is not the same as pressing it up against the tankt. Remember this was about the GS which has a moderately upright position. I think that has a lot to do with it, if you're hugging a fat tank with low set clip ons then yes it's a different proposition. I also have the moto tech bar backs and risers.

[alpo]

@Watcher  That's how you end up "crossed up," much like the rider you chastised.

Dragging your knee on the ground unnecessarily, is not the same as pressing it up against the tankt. Remember this was about the GS which has a moderately upright position. I think that has a lot to do with it, if you're hugging a fat tank with low set clip ons then yes it's a different proposition. I also have the moto tech bar backs and risers.

No offense, but you are speculating.

"Kiss the mirror" is the expression you're looking for. Get your chest down. This can be done on a standard bike.

[Watcher]

@Watcher  That's how you end up "crossed up," much like the rider you chastised.

Dragging your knee on the ground unnecessarily, is not the same as pressing it up against the tank.

I never implied it was.

"Crossed up" would refer to a body position that faces away from the direction of travel

Sliding your butt off the left of the bike while keeping your knees in would point your hips and thus your torso to the right, outside of the turn.  It's not a good posture or technique.
Hanging a cheek must be accompanied with the proper footwork.
Otherwise just keep your rear in the center of the saddle and use your upper body to weight the bike.  "Kiss the mirror."

[rscottlow]

Now I reveal the solution.  "It's not a good idea to change your speed at all once you're in the turn, if you make a mistake and start to run a little wide the best thing you can do is look deeper into the turn and press that inside handgrip a little more.  Trust your tires."  Then I demo a large curve on a Supermoto and try to get it really leaned over.

This.

If you're in too hot lean more.

Body position is everything. I took an advanced riding course years ago. One of the instructors was a petite lady. One of the other riders was on a full-dress Harley. He claimed it would not corner well; she hopped on it and was dragging her knee around the figure eight. It was both amusing and enlightening.

There's a video somewhere on youtube of a guy on a bagger tearing up Mulholland Highway, hanging off around corners. I think it's in a compilation with a bunch of other riders/drivers, so I'll have a hard time locating it, but if I find the link I'll post it up.