I'm a new rider and have completed the msf course last summer. Anways as far as downshifting, I can't remember which is the proper (best) way to downshift. Do I let off the throttle, pull in the clutch, downshift , blip the throttle and re-engage the clutch, or
do I pull in the clutch without letting off the throttle (so there is no blipping the throttle), downshift, and re-engage the clutch?
I would like to know that too. :thumb:
the first option...blip
pull in the clutch just as you do when you're accelerating...
but usually when you're downshifting, its cause you're slowing down, so your throttle should already be closed... in that case, pull in the clutch, downshift (blip of the throttle is optional but I do it personally... it helps in synchronizing your transmission RPM with your engine RPM therefore allows for a smoother engine assisted deceleration when you let out the clutch), and then let out the clutch slowly until it grabs. If you don't blip the throttle... and you aren't smooth with the clutch... you could get an uncomfortable lurch as your bike would decelerate abruptly.
Quote from: joedude on May 23, 2006, 10:14:21 PM
pull in the clutch just as you do when you're accelerating...
but usually when you're downshifting, its cause you're slowing down, so your throttle should already be closed... in that case, pull in the clutch, downshift (blip of the throttle is optional but I do it personally... it helps in synchronizing your transmission RPM with your engine RPM therefore allows for a smoother engine assisted deceleration when you let out the clutch), and then let out the clutch slowly until it grabs. If you don't blip the throttle... and you aren't smooth with the clutch... you could get an uncomfortable lurch as your bike would decelerate abruptly.
hmm well the other day I tried the 1st way (let off the throttle, clutch in, downshift, blip, re-engage the throttle) and right after I pull in the clutch to downshift, I notice my rpms go down around 3-4 thousand I mean is this normal? Am I taking too long to downshift because when I blip the throttle, i hear the engine roar (while the clutch is in) because the rpms are so low. I have to get it back up to around 6 or 7. Should I try to downshift faster so the rpms don't drop so low making me have to roar the engine back up?
You don't have to Red line the engine to down shift! In fact you shouldn't put too much load on the engine when downshifting... you don't want the RPM's racing too high... that just puts unnecessary wear on the valves and such.
The RPM's dropping after you've pulled in the clutch, and let off the throttle... well that's perfectly normal. if it doesn't do that... then there's an issue. Don't worry about being lightning fast when downshifting, concentrate on riding safely. If you need to stop in a hurry, use your brakes, that's what they're there for. On that note, use braking and engine braking together to slow yourself down.
Ok now, a blip of the throttle, should only bring your RPM's up to around 4000 RPM, or 5000 RPM's tops. Any higher than that, then you're just revving the engine up for nothing. Now when you let the clutch out gradually... if the engine races up to 9000 RPM, then you're in too low of a gear for your speed. 6000-7000 is pretty much as high as you want it to ensure you don't prematurely wear your engine. Now to avoid having your engine race like that, another alternative is to use your clutch's friction point (you should have learned about that in your MSF). Gradually let your clutch out, if your engine starts to rev too high for your comfort, then pull it back in slightly, and the bike will slow (cause you're braking as you're doing this) and then slowly let it out again. By that time the RPM should have dropped into a comfortable range
hope that helps!
thanks for the reply. I'll go out again today and give it a try and let you know. Thanks again. :cheers:
... if your don't blip, and your speed is faster than the gear speed your going into, you tire will lose traction...
Quote from: melloGS on May 24, 2006, 07:12:40 AM
... if your don't blip, and your speed is faster than the gear speed your going into, you tire will lose traction...
Only if you're not smooth on the clutch. If you release the clutch in a smooth motion and not too quickly then your wheel won't hop. It's all about good technique.
Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on May 24, 2006, 08:57:40 AM
Quote from: melloGS on May 24, 2006, 07:12:40 AM
... if your don't blip, and your speed is faster than the gear speed your going into, you tire will lose traction...
Only if you're not smooth on the clutch. If you release the clutch in a smooth motion and not too quickly then your wheel won't hop. It's all about good technique.
For normal riding you don't really need to blip the throttle. If you let the revs drop low so there will be less engine braking and let out the clutch slowly you should be o.k. Blipping the throttle to rev match is more for changing down a gear at higher revs to get the power like if your about to overtake or if you are going for a fast ride.
Alright.. This is what I do, and tell me if I shouldn't do this :icon_confused:
I'll be in 4th or 5th gear, and depending on traffic, I just let off the gas and let the RPMs get down around 1800, pull in the clutch, drop to second, blip to about 3k, then I use the brakes down to about 1500, drop to first and stop... Any reason not to do it that way?
Quote from: Queso on May 24, 2006, 11:47:55 AM
Alright.. This is what I do, and tell me if I shouldn't do this :icon_confused:
I'll be in 4th or 5th gear, and depending on traffic, I just let off the gas and let the RPMs get down around 1800, pull in the clutch, drop to second, blip to about 3k, then I use the brakes down to about 1500, drop to first and stop... Any reason not to do it that way?
The RPMs get too low, IMO, which doesn't allow for accelleration if needed. You should engine brake progressively in each gear down to a stop. Try to hold it around 4k to 5k, and then downshift to the next gear; repeat.
Quote from: RavenX on May 23, 2006, 10:04:56 PM
Do I let off the throttle, pull in the clutch, downshift , blip the throttle and re-engage the clutch
Isn't this essentially double-clutching in a car? Which is usually just done to show off how fast you are. Or is that when you release the clutch with it in neutral before you select the next gear? (sorry to hijack a bit)
Quote from: MrDan on May 24, 2006, 12:24:14 PM
Quote from: RavenX on May 23, 2006, 10:04:56 PM
Do I let off the throttle, pull in the clutch, downshift , blip the throttle and re-engage the clutch
Isn't this essentially double-clutching in a car? Which is usually just done to show off how fast you are. Or is that when you release the clutch with it in neutral before you select the next gear? (sorry to hijack a bit)
Double clutching in a car is clutching in to deselect gear, clutch out in neutral, clutch in to select next gear, clutch out to engage. So the second thing you said.
Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on May 24, 2006, 12:26:25 PM
Double clutching in a car is clutching in to deselect gear, clutch out in neutral, clutch in to select next gear, clutch out to engage. So the second thing you said.
cool - so basically one of those skills i never excelled at :) [/hijack]
ok I just got back and tried blipping the throttle. My main problem is slowing down too fast to actually go through all the gears. I have to use the break occasionally so cars behind me can see that I am slowing down otherewise they don't know that i am stopping. What ukchickenlover just wrote is what I have been doing. Man its just soo much to do. Hopefully with more riding it will get easier.
you can always lightly use the foot brake to let someone know behind you that you're slowing down. i found it was easier to learn that way before i could successfully regulate the throttle and front brake at the same time. of course it means you're using all 4 limbs, but only one thing with each :) that make sense?
never thought about it that way. well if it doesn't rain tomarrow I will give it a try and see how that works. Thanks again.
Depends on why you are downshifting.
For power, definately rev match. Do it like a racer, smooth and fast. Flowing like the swift river. (LOL)
For engine braking, well I honestly just do the lazy method. I use the brakes for braking. I Maintain a gear that I can use, but I keep the clutch pulled.
I figure to stop my brakes can lock the tires, so I don't need the extra power, and It's easier to replace brakes than clutch so I'll let them take the wear.
I think if you know your gears and just keep an appropriate one at the ready you can take off as fast as messing with the clutch each time, and be able to focus more attention on the road.
Attention on the road is far more important than doing everything perfect.
Quote from: CirclesCenter on May 24, 2006, 02:52:58 PM
...Attention on the road is far more important than doing everything perfect.
Ditto... The perfect smoothness will come with time and practice, concentrate on riding safely!
I65
I got this from Keith Code's book twist of the wrist.
"The Sequence
1. Gas goes off.
2. Brake goes on.
3. Bike slows some.
4. Clutch comes in.
Maintain brake lever pressure.
5. Blip the gas rapidly on and off. (Usually no more than a quarter turn).
Maintain brake lever pressure.
6. During the blip make the gear change positively and quickly.
Maintain brake lever pressure.
7. Clutch comes out.
Maintain brake lever pressure until desired turn entry speed is achieved.
8. Release brake smoothly."
So when i do step 4-6: bring in the clutch, blip the throttle while downshift, can I hold in the clutch and do steps 5-6 repeated for each downshift, or do I have to release the clutch each time I downshifted to a lower gear?
If you don't release the clutch, your engine will never be linked to your wheel... therefore you won't be engine braking... just coasting
I think you guys are overanalyzing this whole thing. Just go out and ride. Practice, practice, practice. You'll figure it out. Not 5 or 10 minutes here and there. Go ride, for hours and hours.
yeah i guess it just all sounds a lot to do at once for a noob. I'll just go out and practice, practice. :thumb:
Yes, just take it easy for the first little while. However, if you decide that you do want to use engine braking, get in the habit of blipping the throttle now or releasing the clutch nice-and-slow if you're revving a bit high. And when you're confortable with the brake in / brake out / clutch in / down shift / blip throttle / clutch out <REPEAT> method, try this (http://sportrider.com/ride/RSS/146_0402_shift_blip_throttle/) out.
that's a good article... but one thing I noticed is that in the pictures, the rider has two fingers on the brake and two fingers still on the bar... I usually ride that waymyself, but on my MSF course, the instructor advised against that, an inexperienced rider could fall/drop the bike, or impact something and cause the brake lever to go to its most closed position... and with your fingers in between the lever and the handlebar, things could get messy... :o
Not too probable, but still possible...
:dunno_white:
Attention on the road, not some funky shift.
I detailed my method above, but wanted to say again. More important to be mindful of the road than absolutely flawless methods.
Quote from: corndog67 on May 24, 2006, 08:15:10 PM
I think you guys are overanalyzing this whole thing. Just go out and ride. Practice, practice, practice. You'll figure it out. Not 5 or 10 minutes here and there. Go ride, for hours and hours.
I'd like to echo this, and the other comment of being smooth on the clutch. If you let the clutch out smoothly you don't really need to blip your throttle, perhaps rolling it on slightly as the clutch engages.
If the bike jerks, you didn't do it right.
C.
I simply rev-match by listening and feeling, after I have already downshifted; now, I'm feeling for the bike to slow down as I release the clutch, ever so slowly, and add throttle (rev-matching) as needed to keep a smooth transition of slowing down. But, yeah, experience is the best teacher.
When I can slow down on straight engine braking when there isn't much traffic, I can do the rev matching blip downshift near perfectly, but once I get the brakes involved in a bit faster stop, that's when it gets tricky... Y'all are holding the brakes lightly while downshifting? Or do you release the brake mid shift or anything? I find it a bit tricky to do much with the throttle while holding the brake.
Quote from: Queso on May 28, 2006, 12:05:05 AM
I find it a bit tricky to do much with the throttle while holding the brake.
Same here.
When you are braking anyway matching engine revs exactly isn't that important. Since you are decelerating anyway the additional braking from the engine doesn't matter a great deal, may even be a desired side effect.
In fact I find myself caring about smooth engine engagement when downshifting only when I am forced to do it in a curve. (Something you should avoid n the first place, but you knew that.)
Quote from: Queso on May 28, 2006, 12:05:05 AM
When I can slow down on straight engine braking when there isn't much traffic, I can do the rev matching blip downshift near perfectly, but once I get the brakes involved in a bit faster stop, that's when it gets tricky... Y'all are holding the brakes lightly while downshifting? Or do you release the brake mid shift or anything? I find it a bit tricky to do much with the throttle while holding the brake.
If I have to slow down while on the move I typically use engine braking exclusively. In a normal stop I use engine braking to augment the brakes with the throttle closed -- no blip. When I have to really stop in a hurry I worry about managing the brakes and feeling for any impending skids with the clutch in, and sort out the gears when the pressure's off. After a few thousand miles my foot started automatically keeping the correct gear for my speed during this kind of manouver.... :dunno_white:
The only time I blip is when downshifting for more power to accelerate.
Ok, I'm gonna throw a completely different technique at you all. Before you scoff, give it a try.
I've been reading the book "Total Control". That book suggests trying clutchless shifts. I use them, and they are much smoother with fewer missed shifts. They go like this.
When accelerating and upshifting, toe the shifter a little to add some preload, then release the throttle to engage the higher gear. NO CLUTCH. It should slip right into gear with no problems. When downshifting, put a little pressure on the top of the shifter, then gently blip the throttle. The bike will downshift smoothly. Again, these techniques need practice, but they work well, and you virtually eliminate clutch wear and excessive heat.
Just so you don't think that the book is geared towards higher performance machines, it is meant for all riders from cruisers, to standards, to super-sports. I've improved many aspects of my riding practicing it's techniques. Hope this gives another perspective. :thumb:
Just a note on engine braking. Engine braking is for when you want to gently slow down it is not to assist in heavy braking. The back brake has more than anough power to lock the back wheel.
I go down the gear box one gear at a time when braking but this is to reduce the chance of going down the gear box to quickly and locking the back wheel.
The only time I rev match is if I go down a gear at high revs to get more power. If I am just braking I just let the revs drop and am gentle witht the clutch.
They never even mentioned this "blip" thing in the MSF class, I've been downshifting using the blip-less method and just letting the clutch out gradually after downshifting. Maybe I'll give this blip a try next time I go for a ride.
oramac
I use the clutchless shift on my bike occasionally. I think it's a racing technique.
At least I learned it from a buddy that used to race, he had some name for the technique that I can't remember.
I don't use it all the time, and rarely for downshifting. Too much chance in my opinion of breaking traction in the rear on a downshift. It's like letting out the clutch too fast.
The technique requires at least moderate acceleration. The torque between the transmission and engine is what keeps the gears locked together while you are putting pressure on the shift lever until you quickly crack the throttle off/on when accelerating.
If there is not enough torque on the gears they will slip, and the shift will happen before you're ready.
Who hasn't moved their foot or leg and accidentally shifted gears at least once?
Definitely an advanced technique, probably some chance of damage to tranny.
Anybody know for sure?
you only really need to use it when your trying hard to slow down, using all that your brakes have plus all that the engine can offer to do it with out loosing traction on the rear wheel,
it really is something that'll come with time and of course practice,
i do it now with out even thinking about it, and it sounds cool on my bike cause i got a loud exhaust :icon_mrgreen:
I've been working on the blipping method for a little while now & it's one of those things that really takes time and practice to get it really smooth. I mostly have trouble in the sequence when I let the clutch out before I have comeletly rolled off the throttle. then I finish the blip by rolling off & that alone causes a jerk in the motion. The process happens so quick It can take some time to get it just right. It can be hard also because, with the clutch pulled in, the rpms drop back down to idle pretty quickly if you havent completed the roll on & off process in time; then it's pretty useless. I guess blip it higher than the matching rpm for the lower gear to compensate. some may get annoyed with it, but it still feels a lot smoother than just clutching the downshift with no blip; that is a definite.
another thing.
I noticed in that link to sportrider that the guy has his index and middle fingers on the brake lever and the other three gripping the throttle. I ride with my index on the throttle, and my middle and ring fingers covering the brake lever. my pinky just kind of drapes b/c it cant reach. is that "wrong"?
Quote from: l3uddhaI noticed in that link to sportrider that the guy has his index and middle fingers on the brake lever and the other three gripping the throttle. I ride with my index on the throttle, and my middle and ring fingers covering the brake lever. my pinky just kind of drapes b/c it cant reach. is that "wrong"?
You've got more reach with the first two fingers and also more power to pull back on the brake, while using the remaining fingers (and mostly the palm really) to twist the throttle.
Please remember though, this is
controlled braking, not emergency braking. You really should have
*all* of your fingers on the brake lever if you're trying to stop the bike as fast as possible.
As for blipping the throttle, I think it's necessary to learn this technique if you plan to use engine braking and hope to do it smoothly without applying unnecessary stress on the clutch. Open and close your left hand as fast as possible. That's what your hand should be doing when you're shifting up or down, perhaps with the exception of launching your bike from stop in first gear.
Quote from: oramac on May 28, 2006, 10:17:13 AM
Ok, I'm gonna throw a completely different technique at you all. Before you scoff, give it a try.
I've been reading the book "Total Control". That book suggests trying clutchless shifts. I use them, and they are much smoother with fewer missed shifts. They go like this.
When accelerating and upshifting, toe the shifter a little to add some preload, then release the throttle to engage the higher gear. NO CLUTCH. It should slip right into gear with no problems. When downshifting, put a little pressure on the top of the shifter, then gently blip the throttle. The bike will downshift smoothly. Again, these techniques need practice, but they work well, and you virtually eliminate clutch wear and excessive heat.
Just so you don't think that the book is geared towards higher performance machines, it is meant for all riders from cruisers, to standards, to super-sports. I've improved many aspects of my riding practicing it's techniques. Hope this gives another perspective. :thumb:
As far as clutchless shifts I can't advise it, but I've tried it, makes me feel "racier". Regularly I do the whole preload thing as it hit's 9k or so and blip the throttle and clutch at the same time. I rev match I guess cause it's alway velvety smooth. (Unless I suck, which happens sometimes lol.)
For a newb to learn rev matching try using a bit of choke, it makes the revs fall slower.