downshifting question

[Wrecent_Wryder]

I65

[RavenX]

I got this from Keith Code's book twist of the wrist.

"The Sequence

1. Gas goes off.
2. Brake goes on.
3. Bike slows some.
4. Clutch comes in.
Maintain brake lever pressure.
5. Blip the gas rapidly on and off. (Usually no more than a quarter turn).
Maintain brake lever pressure.
6. During the blip make the gear change positively and quickly.
Maintain brake lever pressure.
7. Clutch comes out.
Maintain brake lever pressure until desired turn entry speed is achieved.
8. Release brake smoothly."


So when i do step 4-6: bring in the clutch, blip the throttle while downshift, can I hold in the clutch and do steps 5-6 repeated for each downshift, or do I have to release the clutch each time I downshifted to a lower gear?

[joedude]

If you don't release the clutch,  your engine will never be linked to your wheel... therefore you won't be engine braking... just coasting

[corndog67]

I think you guys are overanalyzing this whole thing.  Just go out and ride.  Practice, practice, practice.  You'll figure it out.  Not 5 or 10 minutes here and there.  Go ride, for hours and hours. 

[RavenX]

yeah i guess it just all sounds a lot to do at once for a noob.  I'll just go out and practice, practice.

[sys49152]

Yes, just take it easy for the first little while.  However, if you decide that you do want to use engine braking, get in the habit of blipping the throttle now or releasing the clutch nice-and-slow if you're revving a bit high.  And when you're confortable with the brake in / brake out / clutch in / down shift / blip throttle / clutch out  <REPEAT> method, try this out.

[joedude]

that's a good article... but one thing I noticed is that in the pictures, the rider has two fingers on the brake and two fingers still on the bar... I usually ride that waymyself, but on my MSF course, the instructor advised against that, an inexperienced rider could fall/drop the bike, or impact something and cause the brake lever to go to its most closed position... and with your fingers in between the lever and the handlebar, things could get messy... 

Not too probable, but still possible...

[CirclesCenter]

Attention on the road, not some funky shift.

I detailed my method above, but wanted to say again. More important to be mindful of the road than absolutely flawless methods.

[chrisalberts]

I think you guys are overanalyzing this whole thing.  Just go out and ride.  Practice, practice, practice.  You'll figure it out.  Not 5 or 10 minutes here and there.  Go ride, for hours and hours. 

I'd like to echo this, and the other comment of being smooth on the clutch.  If you let the clutch out smoothly you don't really need to blip your throttle, perhaps rolling it on slightly as the clutch engages.

If the bike jerks, you didn't do it right.

C.

[scratch]

I simply rev-match by listening and feeling, after I have already downshifted; now, I'm feeling for the bike to slow down as I release the clutch, ever so slowly, and add throttle (rev-matching) as needed to keep a smooth transition of slowing down.  But, yeah, experience is the best teacher.

[Queso]

When I can slow down on straight engine braking when there isn't much traffic, I can do the rev matching blip downshift near perfectly, but once I get the brakes involved in a bit faster stop, that's when it gets tricky... Y'all are holding the brakes lightly while downshifting? Or do you release the brake mid shift or anything? I find it a bit tricky to do much with the throttle while holding the brake.

[Dwn4whadever]

I find it a bit tricky to do much with the throttle while holding the brake.

Same here.

[MarkusN]

When you are braking anyway matching engine revs exactly isn't that important. Since you are decelerating anyway the additional braking from the engine doesn't matter a great deal, may even be a desired side effect.

In fact I find myself caring about smooth engine engagement when downshifting only when I am forced to do it in a curve. (Something you should avoid n the first place, but you knew that.)

[squelch]

When I can slow down on straight engine braking when there isn't much traffic, I can do the rev matching blip downshift near perfectly, but once I get the brakes involved in a bit faster stop, that's when it gets tricky... Y'all are holding the brakes lightly while downshifting? Or do you release the brake mid shift or anything? I find it a bit tricky to do much with the throttle while holding the brake.

If I have to slow down while on the move I typically use engine braking exclusively. In a normal stop I use engine braking to augment the brakes with the throttle closed -- no blip.  When I have to really stop in a hurry I worry about managing the brakes and feeling for any impending skids with the clutch in, and sort out the gears when the pressure's off. After a few thousand miles my foot started automatically keeping the correct gear for my speed during this kind of manouver....

The only time I blip is when downshifting for more power to accelerate.

[oramac]

Ok, I'm gonna throw a completely different technique at you all.  Before you scoff, give it a try.

I've been reading the book "Total Control".  That book suggests trying clutchless shifts.  I use them, and they are much smoother with fewer missed shifts.  They go like this.

When accelerating and upshifting, toe the shifter a little to add some preload, then release the throttle to engage the higher gear.  NO CLUTCH.  It should slip right into gear with no problems.  When downshifting, put a little pressure on the top of the shifter, then gently blip the throttle.  The bike will downshift smoothly.  Again, these techniques need practice, but they work well, and you virtually eliminate clutch wear and excessive heat. 

Just so you don't think that the book is geared towards higher performance machines, it is meant for all riders from cruisers, to standards, to super-sports.  I've improved many aspects of my riding practicing it's techniques.  Hope this gives another perspective.   

[ukchickenlover]

Just a note on engine braking. Engine braking is for when you want to gently slow down it is not to assist in heavy braking. The back brake has more than anough power to lock the back wheel.
I go down the gear box one gear at a time when braking but this is to reduce the chance of going down the gear box to quickly and locking the back wheel.
The only time I rev match is if I go down a gear at high revs to get more power. If I am just braking I just let the revs drop and am gentle witht the clutch.

[WildBlue]

They never even mentioned this "blip" thing in the MSF class, I've been downshifting using the blip-less method and just letting the clutch out gradually after downshifting.  Maybe I'll give this blip a try next time I go for a ride.

[cannoniv]

oramac

       I use the clutchless shift on my bike occasionally.  I think it's a racing technique.
At least I learned it from a buddy that used to race, he had some name for the technique that I can't remember.
I don't use it all the time, and rarely for downshifting.  Too much chance in my opinion of breaking traction in the rear on a downshift. It's like letting out the clutch too fast.

The technique requires at least moderate acceleration. The torque between the transmission and engine is what keeps the gears locked together while you are putting pressure on the shift lever until you quickly crack the throttle off/on when accelerating. 
If there is not enough torque on the gears they will slip, and the shift will happen before you're ready.
Who hasn't moved their foot or leg and accidentally shifted gears at least once?

Definitely an advanced technique, probably some chance of damage to tranny.
Anybody know for sure?

[hmmmnz]

you only really need to use it when your trying hard to slow down, using all that your brakes have plus all that the engine can offer to do it with out loosing traction on the rear wheel,
it really is something that'll come with time and of course practice,
i do it now with out even thinking about it, and it sounds cool on my bike cause i got a loud exhaust 

[l3uddha]

I've been working on the blipping method for a little while now & it's one of those things that really takes time and practice to get it really smooth. I mostly have trouble in the sequence when I let the clutch out before I have comeletly rolled off the throttle. then I finish the blip by rolling off & that alone causes a jerk in the motion. The process happens so quick It can take some time to get it just right. It can be hard also because, with the clutch pulled in, the rpms drop back down to idle pretty quickly if you havent completed the roll on & off process in time; then it's pretty useless. I guess blip it higher than the matching rpm for the lower gear to compensate. some may get annoyed with it, but it still feels a lot smoother than just clutching the downshift with no blip; that is a definite.

another thing.
I noticed in that link to sportrider that the guy has his index and middle fingers on the brake lever and the other three gripping the throttle. I ride with my index on the throttle, and my middle and ring fingers covering the brake lever. my pinky just kind of drapes b/c it cant reach. is that "wrong"?