So i just put in the stage 3 jet kit on my 89, and now it barely starts and doesn't for long when it does.
-Chopped exhaust
-pod filters
-advanced timing
-stage 3 jet kit
So what do i need to do, i have messed wit the mixture screws a bit to no avail...
What steps should i take to figure out whats wrong... Like the times its actually startd it seemed to be ok after 4,000 rpms, but wouldn't idle and died really easy. I followed the jet kit instructions perfectly... so im lost.
ANY HELP WOULD BE AWSOME...
I have rejetted mine with stage 1 kit for 2004 bike so I don't have experience with stage 3, but you said you messed up with mixture screws... try to turn them all the way in and then turn them out 3 turns or whatever instruction say.
one more thing - rejetting with DJ kit usually gives a hard time. don't ask how I figured that out...
How long since your last valve adjustments ?
Well, i tried messin with the mixtures screws both directions and it didn't seem to help at all....
And i have never done a valve adjustment... So.... hahaha.
So still no luck gettin it to run right... I have done everything under the sun i can think of.
I even called dynojet on the phone twice askin for things to check/try....
Things i've tried:
-puttin in the stock needles...
-adjusting the float height
-adjusting the aftermarket clip location (2 down to 1)
-mixture screws (clockwise and counterclockwise)
-KICKED IT A FEW TIMES
Im lost, right now it is:
-aftermarket needles (clip on 1st groove)
-stage 3 jet
-carbs adjusted the best i could get em
It will idle perfect all day... but as soon as i touch the gas it dies imediately. If i twist the throttle fast it kinda revs up and when i can get it to rev into the higher rpm's its fine, but in the low rpms its terrible...
ANYONE ??????
Check your tank petcock
check the fuel lines
check your Vac lines
That will be a start
Maybe try getting all that shaZam! off your bike? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Yikes! You "dieseled your bike." :icon_lol:
Sorry I'm not much help for this specific problem. Does it make a difference to have the choke on full? Sounds related to exhaust back-pressure. Just try adjusting one thing at a time and if it has no affect, change it back and try something else so you can eleminate causes...like make small adjustments to the mixture screws to see what makes it better or worse, etc.
Good luck! I can't sleep when I have problems like these that defy logic.
BH
Yeah, i forgot to clearify that i checked alll the lines multiple times...
i used the manual and checked all the fuel lines, vac lines, and everything else. I also checked the carb float distance as best i could. So i mean as far as the actual phsyical attaching and put together of everything its good. Its somthing i dont know of...
And BASSHZ i think you mighta sprung on somthing i wasent thinkin about and thats the backpressure in the exhaust. Cause my exhaust it deff super duper hi-flow... basically i just took the stock exhaust off, cut open the muffler, hollowed it and welded it all back together.... soooo it deff could be the bike just doesn't have enough back pressure.... ????
It will start no matter how much back pressure you have.
So the question is how did it run before the rejet?
Did you remove the pilot jets and ensure that they are not clogged?
How does choke effect it?
Do the slides move up and down freely?
Is there water in the gas possibly from it sitting outside(I had that problem)
Oh, gottcha, well, befor the re-jet kit it ran just fine, minus the fact that it felt like it didn't have enough power, AKA the reason i got the jet kit.
I havent checked the pilot jets, but i would imagine they are fine since it idles perfect all day long....
the choke from the one time i used it seemed to smoth out the idle a little, but i didn't ride it with the chock to tell u much more then that.
Both slides have always moved totally freely everytime i check them, which is everytime i start it (while im workin on it)
I suppose there could possibly be water in the gas because it does sit outside, but i just put like 3 gallons of 91 in it earlier today... so i would hope its not that... the tank was pretty empty befor i filled it so it should be pretty fresh gas....
Also the spark plugs are about 2 days old, i replaced them last time i worked on it in case they were fouled out.... (not sure how fast it could foul em out agian if its runnin badly, maybe i should get a pack of them to keep replacing them as neccesary)
The exhaust seems to be the top choice for the possible culprit. Besides replacing the can, I'm not sure what you can do about it.
Well, yeah thats what i was thinkin.... i suppose i can savage some of the stock baffles from the inside and rechop it open and put in a baffle to add just a bit of back pressure, the only thing is, is that i want it to be high flow and not constrictive, but still have enough back pressure, so that ballance seems like it would be hard to figure out...
I would suggest removing the 91 octane gas and put in some 87. The GS does not have enough spark to properly burn 91 and It can make your bike run like shaZam!. that may or maynot be your problem, when I put in 89 my bike ran like sjit and would bogg down I removed the gas and put back in 87 and it ran fine.
The exhuast is not the issue, I can guarantee that.
The pilot jet is not used to meter for idle, that is what the mixture screws take care of. THe pilot jet handles low rpm, low loading conditions.
Is the bike running only on one cylinder possibly? When its idleing pull the left spark plug cap off, if it dies then you are running only one cylinder. If it keeps running with no change in engine speed then you found your dead cylinder. Do the same for the right cylinder.
What do the plugs look like? You said they are consistently "failing" out, are they getting carbon fouled?
Firstly i would like to start out by say i love this forum, man everyone on here is so freekin helpful, i never get so much help on other forums. so props to everyone for that.... onto the issues. LOL
ok, well im glad that the exhaust isn't the issue (and even more glad i didn't try to fix the exhaust today LOL)
well i tried to film the bike doing what its doing but now my video software isn't workin so i cant upload it.... ghey... so im just gonna keep tryin to explain it and try things everyone suggests...
I just went out and check the spark plug thing, i turned it on let the idle stabalize and pulled off the left side then the right, both sides did the same thing, and that is the big kept running, the rpm's did drop a lil, but it kept running, and i managed to SHOCK THE CRAP outta myself multiple times... hahaha....
When i take the plugs out (since the jetkit) they come out coated in black AKA carbon fouled as you said i believe is what they are, basically just covered in black soot, so everytime i take them out i clean em off with carb cleaner spray as best i can since i dont have any more new ones....
and as far as i know, the pilot jets are clear, but i cant be certian, next time i go to mess with it, im gonna try changing it back to 85 instead of 91..... Good advice... makes sense...
No problem that is why we are on this board. Good luck :thumb:
Just keep in mind the GS aint no high performance sport bike it has low compression and low output so running high octane fuel needs more spark to burn it properly, get the cheapest gas you can find and the GS will be one happy putter.
If a plug gets fouled you don't neccesarily need to go out and buy new plugs. Just buy a brass wire brush and brush all the carbon off and you will be good to go again, even better if you can spray on some carb cleaner too.
I have run 91 in the GS with no problem, but I suppose it could be effecting something. Did you change the pilot jets when you rejetted? If you put the bleeder type pilot jets in, it could be running really rich at idle. Did you already tell us what size jets you are using? Also, did you balance the carbs after rejetting? It seems unlikely that not balancing would cause it to run this badly, but it's something to check.
OK, just got back in from a couple hours of dickin around with the bike to no avail.....
-I took the plugs out and cleaned the crap outta them (twice during the night)
-adjusted the mixture screws again
-drained the gas tank completly and put in 2.5 gall of 87 (we dont have 85 around were i am..)
-adjusted the throttle cable...
NOTHING.... it still barely idles and runs like shaZam!, and i couldn't even get it to rev at all like i could befor...
So i took the carbs off (for prolly the 14 time doing this jet kit) and brought it up to my apt, im about to tear it apart, check the idle jets and make sure there clear and clean, im going to remeasure and check and adjust the float level, and just see if anything looks wrong somehow....
Thats about all i got for now....
hopefully something will eventually work out!
I have been running my GS on 93 octanes fuel since I got her... I see no problems with that although I'll switch to 87 next time I fill her up. I wonder if there will be any difference in the way she "behaves".
cheers and good luck!!
Yeah, thats why im so confussed, is because i ran 91 since i bought the bike, as well as it all ran great untill this jet kit, thats why im thinkin its gotta be somthing inside the carbs thats messed up, or somthin about how i installed it thats messed up....
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on November 10, 2007, 01:26:00 PM
Firstly i would like to start out by say i love this forum, man everyone on here is so freekin helpful, i never get so much help on other forums. so props to everyone for that....
+1 to that. I felt the same way when I had my problem. BTW, kudos to you for being able to work on your carbs like this. If I ever rejet, I hope Kerry or someone makes a video about disassembling the carbs. Pictures are good but video rocks!
All I'm saying about the back-pressure is that it could be related along with other carb settings , etc. When I was running with a modified stock can (with very little back-pressure), there was a definite dead spot in the throttle. It would idle OK and had good top-end but somewhere in the middle, the damned thing practically stalled. Especially when I would gently increase the throttle as opposed to cranking it quickly. It's like the idle jet couldn't keep it going before the main jet kicked in. This happened while standing still but was worse under load when accelerating. Having the choke on full definately helped.
Since I've plugged up my can making more like stock, the dead spot has all but disappeared.
If you have a way, experiment with the exhaust without tearing it all apart. Try decreasing the opening at the tailpipe to increase the back-pressure. If you plug it up too much you'll have the opposite problem so be careful. This may not be the only problem but could be part of several problems. If nothing else, you'll be able to check it off the list of possible causes.
BH
Hmm... the black sooty plugs means you are rich, but that would help you in your case...
Are the vacuum caps on the top of carbs?
Are you using the stock petcock(i.e. is the vacuum hose plugged into the port on the left carb)
What is your float height using the u-tube method when the carbs are installed?
The hose that connects to the top of the carbs and vents that carbs is open and venting to atmosphere right?
Any smoke or anything coming out the rear? black smoke when you try to rev it?
The problem is most likely the carbs, but we have to figure out if its not getting any gas when you rev it, or if its getting too much gas
Ok, i just got back in from another couple hour work session on it....
-Yes its the stock petcock (with the vac line attaching to the left carb)
-Yes, the top port on the carbs it vented to the atomoshpere like it shoudl be
-Yes, the caps are on the lids of hte carbs (like it should be)
-Yes, there is plenty of black smoke out the tail pipe, pretty much at all rpms... (idle, not much, At high revs, plenty)
-YES GETTIN PLENTY OF FUEL
-Using the u tube method of checkin the carbs... Well the last time i checked it befor i took the carbs apart this last time, the level was just above the gasket, but i just re-did the carbs again and adjusted the float level, but i totally forgot to check the level this time... i will do that tommorrow to make sure....
Quote from: BassHz on November 10, 2007, 08:48:23 PM
When I was running with a modified stock can (with very little back-pressure), there was a definite dead spot in the throttle. It would idle OK and had good top-end but somewhere in the middle, the damned thing practically stalled.
This was most likely caused by leaned carbs. The PO of your bike modified the exhaust but did not rejet the bike so you were to lean in the midrange. He should have rejetted the bike if he wanted the exhaust with better air flow. All he did was increasing the air flow without increasing the amount of fuel getting into the carbs, which made the leaned carbs even more lean... BAD idea.
Good you have solved your problem tho!
cheers
KaMeL
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on November 11, 2007, 05:03:31 PM
Ok, i just got back in from another couple hour work session on it....
-Yes its the stock petcock (with the vac line attaching to the left carb)
-Yes, the top port on the carbs it vented to the atomoshpere like it shoudl be
-Yes, the caps are on the lids of hte carbs (like it should be)
-Yes, there is plenty of black smoke out the tail pipe, pretty much at all rpms... (idle, not much, At high revs, plenty)
-YES GETTIN PLENTY OF FUEL
-Using the u tube method of checkin the carbs... Well the last time i checked it befor i took the carbs apart this last time, the level was just above the gasket, but i just re-did the carbs again and adjusted the float level, but i totally forgot to check the level this time... i will do that tommorrow to make sure....
Try dropping the mains down a setting or two. You seem to be super rich. I think the DJ kit comes wiith 128 and 132 for stage 3 (or something like that). At least try the smaller of the stage 3 jets. You could also try lowering the needles. You said you had the clips on the first notch. Is that the highest or lowest notch?
What main are you running?
Black smoke == super rich, I would suspect that to be your problem as well. What position did you put the needle in at?
Yeah i did the stage 3 jets, but i could try puttin in the stage 1 jets, but im though the mains only mattered in the high rpms, because i dont have any problems at all in the high rpms, the only problem i have is in the under 5 or 6 rpm range...
And the needles are on the 1st, as in the highest setting, which as i understand from my convo with the dyno jet guy thats the leanest notch for the needle. as you go down the needle it gets richer.
_the jet kit i got comes with... 118's, 122's, 128's, and 134's.... right now i have the 134's in it...
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on November 11, 2007, 06:03:49 PM
Yeah i did the stage 3 jets, but i could try puttin in the stage 1 jets, but im though the mains only mattered in the high rpms, because i dont have any problems at all in the high rpms, the only problem i have is in the under 5 or 6 rpm range...
And the needles are on the 1st, as in the highest setting, which as i understand from my convo with the dyno jet guy thats the leanest notch for the needle. as you go down the needle it gets richer.
_the jet kit i got comes with... 118's, 122's, 128's, and 134's.... right now i have the 134's in it...
The whole main jet/high RPM this is where Dynojet confuses a lot of people. The main jet effects the whole range because the slides operate a needle that blocks the flow of fuel from the jet. As the slides raise, the needle withdraws from the jet orifice allowing more fuel to flow. The main has the most effect at full throttle (not necessarily at high RPM) because that is when the needle is completely out of the jet, and not limiting the fuel flow. However, if the main jet is too big the carbs can be rich throughout a lot of the rev range because there is still more fuel flowing even when metered by the needles. At least this is how I understand it.
Couple questions: Have you tried the 128s yet? If so and you still had the problem, try the 122s. Also, did you drill/tap the slides and put both adapters into the holes? The kit says you can leave one adapter out for more acceleration, but when I tried the kit I did not know which adapter to leave out (one has a smaller diameter hole and the other is blocked completely) or whether to still drill out both holes in the slides. I put both in, but could never get the bike to run right.
Very good point,
I currently have both slides only running one corrector... meaning, i drilled out both holes in each slide, but i only put a corrector in one hole on each slide (i believe i put the corrector in the right whole on each slide). I mentioned this to the dynojet guy on the phone and he sounded like that didn't matter, but i will gladly put in the other corrector if there is a chance that that will fix it... HAHAH.
yeah, tommorrow i will go try doing the 128's in there and see what happens.... (FINGERS CROSSED)
:o wow. those DJ kits for older models are crazy complicated... good that they gave up the idea of drilling slides and all that crap in newer models.
But still DJ Kit is a CRAP! I have it and I don't recommend it. I think it's a lot better and cheaper to buy jets from mikuni and use stock needles. That's what most people do and that's SMART - I WASN'T :cry: f..CK Dynojet :laugh:
Quote from: kml.krk on November 12, 2007, 11:37:17 AM
:o wow. those DJ kits for older models are crazy complicated... good that they gave up the idea of drilling slides and all that crap in newer models.
But still DJ Kit is a CRAP! I have it and I don't recommend it. I think it's a lot better and cheaper to buy jets from mikuni and use stock needles. That's what most people do and that's SMART - I WASN'T :cry: f..CK Dynojet :laugh:
I haven't seen a kit for the newer bikes. I wonder if the needles and such are the same with the whole not drilling the slides thing? I've noticed kits for other bikes that didn't need drilling. I replaced my drilled slides and went with DIY jetting, but I've been toying with the idea fo trying the DJ kit again without drilling the slides, just to see what would happen. When I was having alot of problems with my DJ kit, I guessed that drilling the slides might have been a big factor in the problems.
If you go to a smaller main jet then you may need to raise the needle a bit too to get it to run right in the 6-8K range
OK here we go... this is todays update after another like 4 hours session working on it....
Also i have never spend this much time on such a simple problem... (and i have had like 6 motorcycles and like 8 cars)
-So i started by moving down to the 128 jets, aftermarket needles...
-Then down to the 122 jets, aftermarket needles...
-then down to the 118 jets, aftermarket needles... (clilp on the top and 2nd from top notch)
-118 jets, with the stock needles....
NOTHING... still does the same problem it idles ok, and runs ok in high rpms, but run shitty between 2,500 and 5,500....
But hey i guess the bright side is i can now take apart anything having to do with the fuel with my eye's closed.... Heck i would deff call myself a pro at anything having to do with assembly or dissasembly of the carbs.... on the bike, off the bike its all the same...
random... heres a befor after of the r1 taillight conversion.... now i just gotta get that pesky plastic trim piece that goes between the tail sections over the tail light....
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6633/pic0147tk8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9035/pic0143es3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7205/pic0145zm6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Then we got a lil diagram type pic of the carbs...
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3315/pic0138il4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Then a lil comparison of the jets...
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/4615/pic0139nu6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3485/pic0141hf7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Crazy, I am out of ideas, could be the slides issues being drilled I guess but really I am out of ideas....what happens if you put the stock stuff back in, does it still do it?
If it still does it then something in the carbs is f*ed up.
Have you checked the valve clearances?
yeah, i fogot to say that i put the other corrector in the slide during these changes....
Yeah, i have no idea how to check valve clearances.... but im sure it couldn't hurt....
this will help you A LOT with valves: thanks goes to KERRY for that video.
enjoy: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2015554469142545363&q=gs500+valve&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
Hmmm, that reminds me...... :icon_razz:
Quote from: Affschnozel on October 28, 2007, 04:11:44 AM
How long since your last valve adjustments ?
It's always good idea to bring valves into spec before tweaking the carbs
Yeah, so i just watched that whole video and it looks pretty straigh forward and easy...
The only thing is... where can i get the shims from and where can i get the tool from (if i even need it, and for 30 bucks for that lil tool i will prolly jsut mak it happen myself) but mainly i just need the shims... and what range should they be... i think he said .4 - .8
First check clearances, the only tool you'll need is feeler gauge ranging 0.03mm ~1mm
Proper clearance is 0.03-0.08 mm
yeah, i feel ya, im just saying where do i get that... would like a napa, pep boys, auto zone, orielly's....???
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on November 12, 2007, 04:27:04 PM
Then we got a lil diagram type pic of the carbs...
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3315/pic0138il4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Then a lil comparison of the jets...
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/4615/pic0139nu6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3485/pic0141hf7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Your floats and OEM jets look pretty worked over. Along with valve clearances, you should probably give the carbs a good once over. You can pick up feeler gauges at most auto parts stores. I bought a set at Autozone, but the smallest was .032mm or something like that. It's probably close enough though. I bought a valve shim tool from Dennis Kirk I think, and you can get the shims from a local dealer or bikebandit.com. Just a note, the shims that I bought when I did my valves were just a little small and were marked with a Y (i.e. Y265). I don't know if they are for yamahas or what, but the suzuki shims they had at the dealer were way too small (diameter wise). The new one is a little small, but still works.
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on November 12, 2007, 07:18:07 PM
Yeah, so i just watched that whole video and it looks pretty straigh forward and easy...
The only thing is... where can i get the shims from and where can i get the tool from (if i even need it, and for 30 bucks for that lil tool i will prolly jsut mak it happen myself) but mainly i just need the shims... and what range should they be... i think he said .4 - .8
So here you can get the shims (one of the cheapest sources--> about half of the stealer price)
http://crc2onlinecatalog.com/valve_shims.htm
they also have valve shim tools (scroll to the bottom of the page and it should be there)
http://crc2onlinecatalog.com/tools.htm
best feeler gauge would be 0.01-0.1 mm in 0.01 increments but it may be hard to find. just get something similar and it will do the job.
hope this helps
cheers
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on November 12, 2007, 07:18:07 PMi just watched that whole video and it looks pretty straigh forward and easy...
Glad to hear it! :thumb:
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on November 12, 2007, 07:18:07 PMwhat range should they be... i think he said .4 - .8
Hmmm. It's been a long time since I've watched that video, so I don't know what he would have been talking about. :icon_rolleyes:
Seriously, you need to check your valve clearances first ... AND pull each shim to find out how thick it is. Only then will you know:
a) What shim thicknesses you need
b) Whether you can move existing shims from one bucket to another,
reducing the number of shims you need to buy.
I
do remember recommending that you buy a bound-to-be-too-thin shim in the 2.30 to 2.40 range. That will allow you figure out the replacement shim thickness when the current shim is flat-out too tight to get a measurement.
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on November 12, 2007, 07:18:07 PMand where can i get the tool from (if i even need it, and for 30 bucks for that lil tool i will prolly jsut mak it happen myself)
I'm happy to report that Dennis Kirk now has the [Motion Pro valve shim tool (for Suzuki) (http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp;jsessionid=XHWCGEZJLSGG1LA0WTKSM4VMDK0NCIV0?store=Main&skuId=28270)] for $17.99 (plus shipping, of course). If that link doesn't work, go to [http://www.denniskirk.com (http://www.denniskirk.com)] and do a "General Search" for part number
28270.
PS - Just in case you haven't stumbled across it, check out my [Valve Shim Selection Chart (http://bbburma.net/Documents/ValveAdjustmentVideo/GS500_Valve_Shim_Selection_Chart.gif)].
Finally bought my feeler gauges from a local store that had them, now just waitin for a good day, and nothing going on to check em all out....
as far as the bikes going, still no luck, still doesnt run right,
I think i might take the correctors outta the slides, got to stock jet, and back to stock needle and see if it gets better or worse.....
ALSO, i made another post about it, but i will ask here too....
my brake lights dont work with hand or foot brake, but i think the hand brake i need a new brake switch.... WHERE CAN I GET ONE.... i cant find it anywhere...
how is the bike running?? did you check the valves??
Just got back from thanksgiving break... so i will finally be able to check my valves with the new feeler gauge...
How bad do the tolerances have to be for it to actually affect how the bike is running.... (i just couldn't see the valves being whats causing it to run bad... but im sure it wouldn't help anything also. HAHAHA)
if they are too tight or too loose you'll most likely have some problems. did you watch kerry's video? At first attempt he forgot to put the correct shim in the bucket (test shim was left in) and the bike sounded like a TRACTOR...
so you want to make sure your valves are neither tight nor loose.
correct valve clearance is between 0.03 - 0.08 mm
good luck
Hey, srry to hear about the sick GS
I had an old honda cb750 and went through the same thing as you (HOURS!) except try it with four carbs!
MY advice to you is to put everything back to the way it was when the bike was running. Then sync the carbs!
I changed the pilot and main jets in the cb750 multiple times and fiddled around with the mixture screws.
I eventually went back to the way everything was, synced the carbs, and it ran like a champ!
GOOD LUCK!
Hey everyone.... ITS ME... haha, im finally back... So i moved from my apt into a house and i finally found some time to get back to the GS....
I finally pulled the valve cover off and checked my clearances.... and heres what i found...
the best feeler gauge i could find only went down to a .038...
The clearances are suppsoe to be .03 to .08...
My clearances: .038 would not fit in any of them..... OUCH.
So i guess now i have to try and find a small ass shim and trade each on of them out and then use big feeler gauges to see what the new shims i have to get should be sized right?
OH man, not lookin forward to this... HELP ME....
Quote from: Fast Jetta 97 on January 12, 2008, 05:43:28 PMMy clearances: .038 would not fit in any of them..... OUCH.
So i guess now i have to try and find a small ass shim and trade each on of them out and then use big feeler gauges to see what the new shims i have to get should be sized right?
You got it! (Sorry....)
But, if you can at least spin the "bucket" under the shim you don't have to worry TOO much yet.
I had a prob like that but it was gettin to much air. Ran ok with choke on but like crap without. Had to put air box on and run a single k&n filter. Hope that helps.
so i finally just gave up and dropped it off at a local shop...
Mainly to get the valve adjustment done... i figured since the shims alone would been like 20 bucks, then the tools another 18....
the shops only chargin 65.....
So i will update whenever i get it back and see what its like... (hes gonna try and mess wit the carbs as well....)
He siad he hates dynojet jet kits and said he wouldn't ever recomend one and he always has people comin in with problems on them....