Is this really going to happen? Will Obama let this happen just as he takes over the watch?
http://jalopnik.com/5079567/gm-declares-bankruptcy-imminent-after-42-billion-third-quarter-loss
Doesn't look like it:
http://jalopnik.com/5079818/president+elect-barack-obama-is-detroits-personal-jesus-plans-to-help-not+so+big-three
Hopefully they last long enough for Obama to actually do anything... If they go bankrupt in December, who knows what's going to happen...
I wouldnt miss GM in the least bit. I hate their products.
Well I have a Blazer and have had Blazers for years and I LOVE IT.
Some crack head old man went down the off ramp for I 85 a few years ago and hit my wife head on.
Totaled his car. Broke the front axle of my Blazer and totaled it but my wife and son walked away fine.
Toyota can't do that.
Toyota can do it. I hit a parked car at 55 miles an hour and my Tacoma would start, run, and drive. AC worked fine. I could have bought that '04 4wd Tacoma from the insurance company for 4000.00 and I should have.
I'd be sad to see Ford go away, as they now make reliable cars and seem to be turning things around. The Focus is a good inexpensive vehicle, and with the sharp looking Fiesta coming to American shores, I think their future is relatively bright.
The company of GM can die, although it would suck to have so many Americans out of work. They haven't taken aggressive steps to turn things around like Ford has. Their labor force is too big, their vehicles are obese, their reliability is low, and their cars aren't particularly stylish.
Bring yo Toyota over and we'll chain them together and see what pops :laugh: :cheers:
I have no sympathy for the execs, because they made the decision to sell out economy for SUVs. If everyone rode bikes ....
I do feel bad for the folks who will lose their jobs if the companies go under.
Besides, I drive a foreign car anyways. My domestic van is a smoking piece of crap.
Quote from: cafeboy on November 07, 2008, 06:05:06 PM
Bring yo Toyota over and we'll chain them together and see what pops :laugh: :cheers:
i think that was a useless comparison that just snapped, not a part of either truck.
gm > toyota ? reliability ? really ? damn, i'm in an alternate universe or something.
let companies that fail DIE. plain and simple. what's the point in trying if the gov't will bail out all the losers ?
Quote from: sledge on November 07, 2008, 04:23:41 PM
Is this really going to happen? Will Obama let this happen just as he takes over the watch?
http://jalopnik.com/5079567/gm-declares-bankruptcy-imminent-after-42-billion-third-quarter-loss
Well, if GM can't make a profit, I believe they should go away. Survival of the fittest makes a better product. GM is making a boat load of it's product in Canada and Mexico now, so I don't see the need in propping up foreign workers with our tax dollars.
Let em tank.
OR
Let them start making reliable vehicles that are competitive with Toyota and Honda. They're had YEARS to realize they needed to compete with them, but they took the low hanging fruit with over-priced / over-profitting SUVS and trucks. Too bad for em. They coulda done something awesome.
Quote from: ohgood on November 07, 2008, 06:13:31 PM
let companies that fail DIE. plain and simple. what's the point in trying if the gov't will bail out all the losers ?
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Yeah but GM are involved in many industries, not just making cars. If they go fun bags up and bring down the shutters it will impact on just about every developed country in the world.....it wont be good news.
Quote from: sledge on November 07, 2008, 06:26:10 PM
Yeah but GM are involved in many industries, not just making cars. If they go fun bags up and bring down the shutters it will impact on just about every developed country in the world.....it wont be good news.
Yeah, but I doubt that will actually happen. The worst thing that could possibly happen to them is they go in to bankruptcy and get bought. If that happens, it is likely that they will be torn apart and sold for scrap, but the important parts of their operation that actually make money will be sold to some other company. I highly doubt they would just run out of money and cease to exist. Someone will buy them for pennies on the dollar and make a fortune doing it.
Quote from: sledge on November 07, 2008, 06:26:10 PM
Yeah but GM are involved in many industries, not just making cars. If they go fun bags up and bring down the shutters it will impact on just about every developed country in the world.....it wont be good news.
I've watched Toyota get stronger over the years. Look at their stock price. I've also watched GM push crap cars and huge trucks while the market was changing.
I can empathize with people losing their jobs. I've seen machine shop after machine shop close down. Some without more than 24 hours notice. It sucks to make a good part, under budget, and please a customer only to see the shop close. It sucks to know the guy next door that washes uniforms won't have a paycheck, and the kids t-ball field won't have a sponser, but that's life.
The suppliers for GM will have to cater to a new brand. Maybe their quality will have to improve also. That's not a bad thing for consumers. It's a short term hardship. Provided people have planned ahead, not financed every dime away, and can adapt to the job market, they'll be fine.
BTW - I'm not anti-GM or anti-FORD so much as I am anti-CRAP-PRODUCT-PROPPED-UP-BY-BIG-GOV't.
If Toyota made a POS product I'd call it that. Hell Hyundai is kicking GM's pants right now, and look where they were 10 years ago ! If GM wanted a comeback, it was time to re-tool, re-invest, and re-evaluate 5 years ago, not when they are dead on the table.
Sorry for the rant sledge, seems like all of mine head that way lately. :)
Quote from: cafeboy on November 07, 2008, 06:05:06 PM
Bring yo Toyota over and we'll chain them together and see what pops :laugh: :cheers:
Most likely the U joints on the Blazer...if the POS transmission doesn't burn up first.
Ohgood,
If GM goes down let's rent a couple semis and go to the auction. Delphi was a grab and run, at the GM auction they'll be begging for bids. Where else could you buy a 4x8x2' NEW Rock of Ages A grade rock with stand for $50 bucks? How about a Monarch 1000EE for a grand with EVERY accessory ever made for it, 50 hours on the spindle, AND the P.O.? Yes, it's true! :icon_mrgreen:
If GM goes down I'm going to the auction! :)
FWIW:
I doubt a Chinese buyout of any of the big 3. China is starting to fall into recession itself. Possibly worse than here.
If they go down, ill blame it on Obama, hell why not. the man in charge gets teh blame whether deserved or not :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: GeeP on November 07, 2008, 11:16:48 PM
Ohgood,
If GM goes down let's rent a couple semis and go to the auction. Delphi was a grab and run, at the GM auction they'll be begging for bids. Where else could you buy a 4x8x2' NEW Rock of Ages A grade rock with stand for $50 bucks? How about a Monarch 1000EE for a grand with EVERY accessory ever made for it, 50 hours on the spindle, AND the P.O.? Yes, it's true! :icon_mrgreen:
If GM goes down I'm going to the auction! :)
FWIW:
I doubt a Chinese buyout of any of the big 3. China is starting to fall into recession itself. Possibly worse than here.
i'm there !
i managed to scoop up a few Fowler and Federal indicators when the plant in Meridian, MS closed. they were running over A FReAKING TON of indicators with a forklift, then pushing them into a hopper for scrap ! ARRRRRGH !
call me a vulture or whatever, but when a company tosses $100,000 worth of tech for no reason other than to have to move it, i say dumb !
btw- there were also several hundred thousand dollars worth of rocks, CCM's, air gauges (yes, the kind with digital readouts!, DRM's, and other high-dollar items being trashed. just plain shameful. :(
The US auto makers won't be allowed to fail. It's a national security issue. A country's ability to prevail in a major military conflict depends largely on it's manufacturing capacity. As it is, we don't even produce the clothes on our troops backs or the boots on their feet.
The sad reality is that GM wont be allowed to fail by the govt as its cheaper for them to bail out a terrible auto maker than it is to find another manufacturer for their HMMWV(which is likely being phased out anyways)
The worst thing is, the Hummer M series issued to the US military is probably the very best thing GM has to offer, considering its still running the 6.2 or 6.5L Detroit Diesel motor under the hood.
But like has been said, GM has been the horse with a broken leg for awhile now, its time to shoot the horse and get on with it.
Quote from: ohgood on November 08, 2008, 03:54:04 AM
Quote from: GeeP on November 07, 2008, 11:16:48 PM
Ohgood,
If GM goes down let's rent a couple semis and go to the auction. Delphi was a grab and run, at the GM auction they'll be begging for bids. Where else could you buy a 4x8x2' NEW Rock of Ages A grade rock with stand for $50 bucks? How about a Monarch 1000EE for a grand with EVERY accessory ever made for it, 50 hours on the spindle, AND the P.O.? Yes, it's true! :icon_mrgreen:
If GM goes down I'm going to the auction! :)
FWIW:
I doubt a Chinese buyout of any of the big 3. China is starting to fall into recession itself. Possibly worse than here.
i'm there !
i managed to scoop up a few Fowler and Federal indicators when the plant in Meridian, MS closed. they were running over A FReAKING TON of indicators with a forklift, then pushing them into a hopper for scrap ! ARRRRRGH !
call me a vulture or whatever, but when a company tosses $100,000 worth of tech for no reason other than to have to move it, i say dumb !
btw- there were also several hundred thousand dollars worth of rocks, CCM's, air gauges (yes, the kind with digital readouts!, DRM's, and other high-dollar items being trashed. just plain shameful. :(
lmao, ive got about 2 tons of titanium slugs. were used in some high po auto parts, every oen which hit the floor had to go bye bye. soi picked em up, every day got about 40 of em. cylindrical tubes 3" by 3/4"
its great that GM goes under they made no effort to compete with foreign auto makers, hell they don't even try to compete with us auto makers. if they go under what happen's to Chevy, saturn,etc......
Quote from: mach1 on November 08, 2008, 05:45:16 PM
its great that GM goes under they made no effort to compete with foreign auto makers, hell they don't even try to compete with us auto makers. if they go under what happen's to Chevy, saturn,etc......
IIRC they are all part of it :dunno_white:
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on November 09, 2008, 12:28:44 AM
Quote from: mach1 on November 08, 2008, 05:45:16 PM
its great that GM goes under they made no effort to compete with foreign auto makers, hell they don't even try to compete with us auto makers. if they go under what happen's to Chevy, saturn,etc......
IIRC they are all part of it :dunno_white:
yes, and (here in EU) Opel/Vauxhall, Saab and Chevrolet Europe too.
thats sux saturn just released a great looking car or maybe it was a prototype but it still looked fun bags. I would like to still drive a cobalt SS and maybe the new camaro, ohwell they produce crap they fall like crap in a toilet.
I blame the screwed up healthcare system.
The big ticket for these companies was ... they had to pay for healthcare while japaneese companies didn't ...
Now of course Toyota and honda moved here, and the US companies moved out and the jap's are beating GM at their own game in their backyard.
And yea let it die and shut down everythign but research, and give them research money and get them off the gas useage. Need to be some sustainable stuff ... solar or electric ... solar I really like, someone gets a better harness rate than the .0000000001% we get now with the thermoelectric stuff ... and we're in business.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on November 09, 2008, 03:32:16 PM
I blame the screwed up healthcare system.
The big ticket for these companies was ... they had to pay for healthcare while japaneese companies didn't ...
Now of course Toyota and honda moved here, and the US companies moved out and the jap's are beating GM at their own game in their backyard.
And yea let it die and shut down everythign but research, and give them research money and get them off the gas useage. Need to be some sustainable stuff ... solar or electric ... solar I really like, someone gets a better harness rate than the .0000000001% we get now with the thermoelectric stuff ... and we're in business.
Cool.
Buddha.
the jap's are beating GM at their own game in their backyard...
while employing Americans, with good wages, good health care (finally) and good (for a car company) environmental practices.
the best GM has done is make 'flex fuel' 6,000 lb suv's which is a freaking JOKE.
ya, sure, GM, go 'hybrid' a suburban and get a whopping 16 MPG instead of 12. fffffffwhatever.
Quote from: mach1 on November 09, 2008, 02:37:47 PM
thats sux saturn just released a great looking car or maybe it was a prototype but it still looked fun bags. I would like to still drive a cobalt SS and maybe the new camaro, ohwell they produce oh my goodness they fall like oh my goodness in a toilet.
No matter how good a Saturn might look, I wouldn't touch one with a 12 foot pole after having owned one.
Crap brakes. Expensive crap brakes. New rotors needed every year or two, new calipers every 4, priced like Volvo or Mercedes parts. Brake lines to rear badly designed, rusted out twice.
Plastic body panels not rusting - nice. Providing plenty of other places that do rust out - not so nice.
Various other mechanical ills, all saturn-specific parts overpriced, happy to see it go.
Quote from: DoD#i on November 09, 2008, 05:40:57 PM
Quote from: mach1 on November 09, 2008, 02:37:47 PM
thats sux saturn just released a great looking car or maybe it was a prototype but it still looked fun bags. I would like to still drive a cobalt SS and maybe the new camaro, ohwell they produce oh my goodness they fall like oh my goodness in a toilet.
No matter how good a Saturn might look, I wouldn't touch one with a 12 foot pole after having owned one.
Crap brakes. Expensive crap brakes. New rotors needed every year or two, new calipers every 4, priced like Volvo or Mercedes parts. Brake lines to rear badly designed, rusted out twice.
Plastic body panels not rusting - nice. Providing plenty of other places that do rust out - not so nice.
Various other mechanical ills, all saturn-specific parts overpriced, happy to see it go.
weird, i got over half a million miles on mine. when it finally died. engine was original, 2nd transmission. nothing ever broke, ( cept the sunroof) meh, go figure lol
I read somewhere that it costs GM over $1600 per vehicle for health care for present and retired employees. Toyota spends $215. I would assume Ford and Chryslers expenses are also considerably higher than the foreign owned brands. Some may say that the unions did their job a little too well. All I know is there will be several hundred thousand to possibly millions of people out of work if any one of the big three fail. Those well paid workers will no longer be spending money and paying taxes. Sounds like the beginning of the end.
If one of the big(?) three fall, a lot of companies will. There are suppliers out there that can only operate with these guys in business. The reports coming across my desk right now have an estimated 1.4 million workers unemployed if GM goes away. Only 300k in that number work directly for GM. The rest are second and third-party companies.
Quote from: gearman on November 12, 2008, 05:00:42 PM
I read somewhere that it costs GM over $1600 per vehicle for health care for present and retired employees. Toyota spends $215. I would assume Ford and Chryslers expenses are also considerably higher than the foreign owned brands. Some may say that the unions did their job a little too well. All I know is there will be several hundred thousand to possibly millions of people out of work if any one of the big three fail. Those well paid workers will no longer be spending money and paying taxes. Sounds like the beginning of the end.
well the unions expect the companies to pay for all of it. if i heard correctly., , now theyll have to pay in some if they want it to continue
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on November 08, 2008, 12:06:56 AM
If they go down, ill blame it on Obama, hell why not. the man in charge gets teh blame whether deserved or not :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
i think most people are smart enough to realize that bush not only ruined the oil companies he ran but our country too.
GM is failing (as are other US based auto makers) because of poor decisions. they thought $1.50 gallon gas would last forever. they built so much of their profit into the huge trucks and suvs. other companies such as honda and toyota, did not. they continued to build small, cheap, dependable, fuel effecient cars. so now, GM and the rest of detroit automakers are crying and honda/toyota are breaking open the champagne. if the government lets them fail, (and i do say if, because you know our government, print it and spend it) then yes, for a time, things will get hard in the auto industry. unemployment rate will skyrocket. but, who knows, another company could end up just buying them out and completley revamping the entire product line. i don't feel sorry for the CEO'S who will loose their multimillion dollar business. i do feel for the guy working doubles on the assembly line to make ends meet that will loose his job.
Let them go down, I'm with ohgood and bobthebiker.
But I'm also not a fan of the big unions, I feel they have to take some responsibility for this too. Dont get me wrong, I'm not a hater, they served a purpose and promoted some much needed changes back in the day...but the day is over. If you want to compete and save American jobs then dont go out on stike because the company wants you to pay a fair share of your healthcare benifits. AK Steel was on strike here in Ohio for about a year and all you heard was "we dont want to pay $20 a paycheck for healthcare". BOO Fing Who..the rest of us are paying $80-120 per pay period, suck it up and get back to work!! That attitude drives me nuts :mad: My inlaws are all General Electric union guys and at Poker night thats all they talk about how much they made($) and how little they worked. They worked harder at avoiding work than the actual work would have been. Now I know why my GE profile appliances cost so much, and dont last as long.
I buy American when ever I can when it makes sense...I ride a Susuki and Yamaha...but I drive a Dodge :icon_razz:
i agree that the unions are screwing shaZam! up. there was a time and place for them. but you know, my dad told me the other day, when dealing with the unions, some specific ones, you need more finese and tact, they can't be bullied. lets say the truckers union for example? (not sure if it's called truckers union but i'm sure you get the point). if we tried to bully them out and they strike, not shaZam! goes anywhere. so while i agree the unions need to go down, we have to do this in a tactful way to keep american jobs. my dad lives in kansas and he says at least every other year it seems like the machinst union or electricians union that works for boeing goes on strike. and the biggest reason, suprise, suprise...they don't want to pay more in healthcare. i might not make $40 bucks an hour as a machinist, but i also pay a shaZam! more in medical than people in union shops do. what makes a union man so much better of a worker than me that he deserves to make double what i do and yet pay less in healthcare etc? oh, please let someone on here be a union member so you can explain this to me. :mad:
QuoteMy inlaws are all General Electric union guys and at Poker night thats all they talk about how much they made($) and how little they worked.
I worked at a "Generous" Electric mechanical service shop for many years. We were non-union but had pretty much the same benefits and pay scale as the union shops. Yeah...it was a good gig while it lasted. When they sold the business, they must have had an "agreement" with the new owners because nobody could seem to get hired at
any GE facility. I was 6 months away from being vested. That wouldn't have happened if we were union.
because they were smart enough, organized enough, and strong enough to organize into a union. it sounds like sour grapes when non union workers go at unionized workers. companies that make billions in profits will not willingly share that money with the workers. it is the union that corrects that. otherwise we would be back into the servitude days of employment. like they have in 3rd world countries like India, Pakistan and china. unions also help to make sure that there is quality control and professional development for the workers they represent. which helps us all. this hole medical thing is the result of, of course, the large HMO's who are raking in billions and this depression/recession is certainly not going to effect them. we need universal health care like Canada and the other G-8 nations have. a prescription that cost me 20 bucks in Canada costs 160 in the US. in the other g-8's you will not be refused care, you will not go bankrupt from health care, you will not have to suffer in pain because you don't have the money or insurance. you could/should be able to go to the state and get your health card...done you are covered. if u want dental and pharm care? no problem that is about 50 bucks a month more. no deductible for the medical, 100 deductible for dental and 75 for prescriptions. there is plenty enough money to do this. just up the taxes on the rich president Obama says 250k but lets jump it up to 1 million. that would pay for it alone. medical care should not cost you your home, your savings or your life.
Welcome to the U.A.S.S :2guns:
frankiG wrote
because they were smart enough, organized enough, and strong enough to organize into a union. it sounds like sour grapes when non union workers go at unionized workers. companies that make billions in profits will not willingly share that money with the workers. it is the union that corrects that. otherwise we would be back into the servitude days of employment. like they have in 3rd world countries like India, Pakistan and china. unions also help to make sure that there is quality control and professional development for the workers they represent. which helps us all.
No sour grapes, and I'm not mad at ya. I'm not against all unions, or even everything they stand for. My parents and sister are all in the Teachers union. I just want some common sense applied in some areas.
I have/had family at Ford in the 70's & 80's...that wasnt smart organizational skill..it was intimidation and threats of life in Northern Ohio. Your point about sharing $$ with employees was a fair point 20 years ago, I dont think it carries much weight in this more globalized world.
"unions help make sure there is quality control and professional developement for their workers" yeah...how that working for the Big Three?!?! You mean quality of life of union members and protecting non productive workers...to the detrement of consumers. If these places were making quality products for a competative (not cheaper) price, that would be one thing. When I see them protect a drunk employee for the 2nd or 3rd time and wont allow him to be fired...and that guy is buildint the tranny in my new truck...I got a problem with that!
If you can make $45 per hour doing what I get $22 for , more power to you. I just dont want to hear you complain about paying $20 per month for health care. Also dont expect me to pay more money for a lesser or equal product because it was Union Made. Times are tough, my money goes where I get the best bang for my buck.
All of the "big 3" are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, especially since americans have stopped buying cars regardless of brand because nobody is confident they will have a job tomorrow to pay for them. I feel bad for the workers but the United Autoworkers Union is partly to blame for the problems. The big 3 have to pay upwards of $30 an hour more than toyota or honda do because they didn't stand up to the unions when they had a chance 15 years ago. The companies are to blame because they didn't learn any of the lessons the oil embargo of the 70's should have taught them and instead of building quality cars they effectively exited the car buisness to sell high-propfit trucks and SUV's. Now they want the government to bail them out. I say tough rocks pal- you weren't giving the government a bailout while you made massive profits of fuel guzzlers and now that you can't sell them and all your cars suck you are gonna go out of buisness. too effin' bad jerkoffs.
Quote from: chipster on November 14, 2008, 01:35:52 PM
Also dont expect me to pay more money for a lesser or equal product because it was Union Made. Times are tough, my money goes where I get the best bang for my buck.
Replace "union" with "American" and we have arrived at the root of our problems. Even when times are good, 90+% of American consumers will buy the imported product, even if it's only pennies cheaper. They don't bother to look at where it was made and most wouldn't care anyway. Globalization is a fancy way of saying "spreading the wealth" on a much, much grander scale.
Quote from: gearman on November 14, 2008, 07:08:46 PM
Quote from: chipster on November 14, 2008, 01:35:52 PM
Also dont expect me to pay more money for a lesser or equal product because it was Union Made. Times are tough, my money goes where I get the best bang for my buck.
Replace "union" with "American" and we have arrived at the root of our problems. Even when times are good, 90+% of American consumers will buy the imported product, even if it's only pennies cheaper. They don't bother to look at where it was made and most wouldn't care anyway. Globalization is a fancy way of saying "spreading the wealth" on a much, much grander scale.
And while we're at it, lets focus on the act of paying pennies (or 2 %) less for a product. Where does that 2 % not spent go ? No where really. Not invested, not saved, just spent on some other piece of crap. :(
I don't blame unions, they're just workin stiffs. The ones to blame are the people that make the rules (which car gets a green light, for production) at the TOP. The guys showing up 5 days a week just turn wrenches and pay their bills.
i would have bought a GM or another "american" brand when i bought my toyota. in fact, i went to ford first. test drove a little fusion. nice car but i wanted to shop around. the toyota was not only 1k cheaper, but an all around nicer car. handled better. the ride is smoother. gets better gas mileage. (okay, only like 2-3mpg but still). so, i feel i got the best bang for my buck. if american companies had the best bang for my buck, they would get my buck. :thumb:
Im in the market for a '90 ford escort myself. It was my first car and I miss it. Great little car. Never gave me any problems. 38-45mpg on the highway. Solid as a rock, Little sherman tank.
Everyone is talking like if GM goes bankrupt that there won't be any GM cars. Bankrupt doesn't necessarily mean out of business. Chapter 11 bankrupt means protection from creditors so you can reorganizing the business so it can survive and make profit in the future. Because of this, I think a government bailout is a waste of our money unless GM has a plan on changing the way they do business. It least that is my chop on things.
- Porkchop
it also means that all contracts are null and void. as for the health care thing. the reason japanese makers don't have to pay is because, like all other g-8 countries other than America, the government pays the health care cost. big government? why so scared? small government has not been successful. big government takes care of the citizens, business only wants profits...get it?
Red Tag sale 4 the win ...... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
oh yeah, before they file bankruptcy it will be buy one get one free on all trucks. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_go_co/auto_bailout_what_s_next
suprise, suprise. congress doesn't want to do anything because i'm willing to be none of them have one dime invested in the auto industry. but when it came to the banking industry, well, now, we gotta do something fast. i'm not saying for sure we need to do something and i'm not saying we need to let them fail all together. if they do fail, it's very clear it will hit the economy very, very hard. i'm disgusted at the fact that congress seems to just want to sit around and finger point and play the blame game. geez, what do we pay our represenatives for?
Quote from: jserio on November 19, 2008, 08:11:28 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_go_co/auto_bailout_what_s_next
suprise, suprise. congress doesn't want to do anything because i'm willing to be none of them have one dime invested in the auto industry. but when it came to the banking industry, well, now, we gotta do something fast. i'm not saying for sure we need to do something and i'm not saying we need to let them fail all together. if they do fail, it's very clear it will hit the economy very, very hard. i'm disgusted at the fact that congress seems to just want to sit around and finger point and play the blame game. geez, what do we pay our represenatives for?
Dude they
just want are going to wait for January, that's all at this point.
procrastination at it's best i guess. my job doesn't involve a two month vacation. ;) but then again, i'm not a politician. :dunno_white:
Quote from: frankieG on November 18, 2008, 11:25:55 AM
it also means that all contracts are null and void. as for the health care thing. the reason japanese makers don't have to pay is because, like all other g-8 countries other than America, the government pays the health care cost. big government? why so scared? small government has not been successful. big government takes care of the citizens, business only wants profits...get it?
Big govt, big business. both waste money :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: jserio on November 18, 2008, 12:57:56 PM
oh yeah, before they file bankruptcy it will be buy one get one free on all trucks. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I've read somwehere that a British car dealer is doing that
already. Buy one car, get two. ;)
Don't know the actual details of this promotional sale, though.
Fun fact of the day: The 10 top officers for Toyota make less money combined than the CEO of GM.
We can blame unions all we want, but the American car makers chose to give better pensions and health care instead of increasing employee pay. They put off their labor costs, and now its biting them where we all knew it would.
and in a few months, it will bite the rest of the country/economy just as hard.
Quote from: Juan1 on November 20, 2008, 02:03:56 PM
Fun fact of the day: The 10 top officers for Toyota make less money combined than the CEO of GM.
We can blame unions all we want, but the American car makers chose to give better pensions and health care instead of increasing employee pay. They put off their labor costs, and now its biting them where we all knew it would.
Interesting bit there about toyota vs gm officers.
the half off sale on trucks is silly too. it's a truck, which is defined as a cab + a box. but people 'need' 4 doors, 400 horsepower, 40" tires, and to be cooler than their neighbor. recognize a theme here from the housing market ? yep, you got it $40,000 in payments too.
Alls I know is that i caught a part of the big 3's meeting they had, and, they got chewed the f%$k out. One very upset representative said that he doesnt think they sohould get any money because they would continue to make the same mistakes theyve been making for the last 10 years. Then later i saw footage of the ceo's of the big three leaving the local airport in private jets. Sounds like they are very worried about money. I think ford has somethign like a fleet of 10 private jets for its top dicks. The cost or a private jet flight is ridiculous. Let alone how ever many flights they make a year. When the compay could be puttign that money into r&d for better quality cars. I say drop the big guys salaries down to half of what they make a year. Take away private jets, company retreats. And give more to the r&d so they can have a perverbial propulsion device for thier native american water vessels that are heading up a tributary full of feces.
SACRIFICES MUST BE MADE IN HARD TIMES! Something alot of the upper echelon of this country cannot envision. "Cut everythign else but my salary and luxuries"
f%$k that, everyone pays the piper now bitches. And his name is Murphy!
i am very worried about our economy and country
I think Google should buy one of these car companies. They have proven the ability to make money in an industry that is nearly impossible to make money in anymore (the interwebs) No reason to believe they couldn't make one of these automakers profitable.
true, it'd be amusing to say the least.
the biggest concern i have for the "big 3" failing is american jobs. i read somewhere that if GM fails, it will loose somewhere around 2.5 milliion jobs. then an additional 700k jobs from 3rd party suppliers etc that cater to GM. and that's just one of the big 3. i'm gonna venture to say that all 3 of them combined it's probably more than 5 million jobs at stake here. we are in a very tough position in this situation. there is no simple answer for it either.
The problem is those stats are being put forth by the United Autoworkers Union and they are the ones who would be out on their asses so I have to believe those numbers to be inflated more than a little. They really should blame themselves- if they hadn't held the domestic manufacturers feet to the coals so many times they might be in a better position to stay in business. The other thing I don't get is the idea these jobs would evaporate. Sure some would go, but if there suddenly was no more big 3 other manufacturers are going to have their volume increase due to less competition in the market. People aren't going to not buy cars because some American car companies that were run into the ground failed- they will just buy from Toyota and Honda and so forth. Once volume for other manufacturers increases they will need to ramp up production and there are more jobs. This idea that all these auto workers got union jobs and think that they basically have them forever with regular wage increases and pensions and the like is a failed business model. People lose their jobs and you find a new one or learn to do something else- I've had the rug pulled out from under me and I persevered. The UAW spent so many years holding a gun to the big 3's head that they did more than their fair share to make those companies unprofitable, and when you combine that with the staggering ineptitude of grossly overpaid and under delivering management you get 4 rich bastards flying in separate, private jets to Washington to beg for their share of our tax dollars to make up for the fact they suck at their jobs and are stuck in contracts that virtually guarantee those 3 companies will never turn a profit with the labor agreements they are stuck with. I know it's harsh but they should all have to go into Chapter 11 and restructure and change the UAW labor agreements to something that is actually good for the company and not just the worker bees running the robots. F those pricks. It's proven the #1 expense for virtually any business is labor costs and when the big 3 are paying $20 more to the UAW per hour than do Honda or Toyota, or other manufacturers how on earth do they think they can survive, especially with inferior product nobody wants because they didn't bother to pay attention to market conditions they just rode the SUV wave all the way into the iceberg.
Mitt Romney wrote an interesting article about this. He says he feels the only way to save it is to not give them a bailout. I agree. In case no one knew, (i didnt until today) hes the son of the George Romney. The guy that saved American motors in the 50's i think it was. Any way. If you get a chance read it.
i think so to. it will tend to discourage mismanagement from the unions down to the CEO and such from happening agian. chrysler has been bailed a few tiems already, i believe ther ophers have as well
Quote from: shiznizbiz on November 25, 2008, 12:26:38 AM
Mitt Romney wrote an interesting article about this.
Yeah, heard it on NPR. I think it's called "capitalism". Weird.
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on November 25, 2008, 01:24:37 AM
chrysler has been bailed a few tiems already, =
They were bailed out once in the mid-early eighties, and Lee Iacocca reduced his salary to $1 a year and paid every cent plus intrest back to the government with a big cardboard check less than 5 years later. The government never expected to see a dime of that again but he turned it around.
Quote from: wladziu on November 25, 2008, 12:47:19 PM
Quote from: shiznizbiz on November 25, 2008, 12:26:38 AM
Mitt Romney wrote an interesting article about this.
Yeah, heard it on NPR. I think it's called "capitalism". Weird.
Naw, this one is rightfully named, "Let Detroit go Bankrupt"
Quote from: bikejunkie223 on November 25, 2008, 04:58:23 PM
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on November 25, 2008, 01:24:37 AM
chrysler has been bailed a few tiems already, =
They were bailed out once in the mid-early eighties, and Lee Iacocca reduced his salary to $1 a year and paid every cent plus intrest back to the government with a big cardboard check less than 5 years later. The government never expected to see a dime of that again but he turned it around.
good point
http://blog.mises.org/archives/008920.asp and interesting read
Quote from: bobthebiker on November 07, 2008, 05:26:04 PM
I wouldnt miss GM in the least bit. I hate their products.
yes but your talking about millions of jobs
i often wonder how many of those who hate their products, have either 1 driven, or two owned one>, i wonder. alot of teh animosity toward them, nowadays is considered the cool thing to do lo. i will agree, during a few years ago, tehir quality was not the greatest. if i can find it, there is a stufy/spreadsheet out which shows many american cars beating out the european and osme japanese cars as far as repairs go. over a frame of time
must have been about 5-6 years ago, I read a Wallstreet Journal report on the state of the auto industries between the domestic and foreign auto companies. The main focus was the stats on $$ spent on pushing the product (advertising, cash rebates, etc..) versus R&D. The domestic brands ratio was 2.5:1, interesting enough the two Japanese brands studied (Honda, Toyota) was the exact opposite. Every dollar they spend on branding, rebates, kickbacks, and incentives, they spent 2.5 on some sort of R&D. I think that speak volumes on part of the cause of the current state of affairs.
youve got a point there. cetain htings like heavy duty trucks, ill buy american, because no japanese exist. and wouldbe pricey as well. BUT i gotta admit dollar for dollar if it came ot small trucks, id go jap. all but three were. ( of my vehicles._ ive had many)
i wont touch kia until theyve been around at least ten years here ( and its gettign clost to that now )
As a self labeled Honda honk I have a few opinions (I'm a tech at a Honda dealer) GM, Chrysler and Ford build some pretty good product. They also build some pretty bad product. From what I have seen as they are traded in is that most of the domestic cars seem to be built on the idea that after 100k they don't give a crap how it performs and if the tranny blows up or it leaks oil like the Exxon Valdez it's not their problem. Honda and Toyota believe their cars should have at least 200k service lives, and we have a bunch of regular customers with double that mileage on some Hondas Built in the early 90's. As far as trucks go, mine is a Dodge because I got a great deal on it and the Ridgleine's bed just isn't big enough for my needs, otherwise I'd have one of those. I think the big 3 spent too much time focusing on trucks and while they make a great truck, people don't want them anymore and the neglected part of the market (cars) is where nearly all of the crappy product is, I can't think of 1 car GM makes that is even interesting to me beside the new Camaro (if it's ever released, no hurry GM you have only been pimping it for 3 years and now the modern musclecar market has all but shriveled up to nothing) and the Corvette. We are all ragging on GM, but Chrysler and Ford are both just as screwed.