Some while back in a thread about trips for the summer i mentioned that I was hoping to go to Normandy again and i might get along to the U.S. cemetary and memorial near Audouville La-Hubert or Utah beach as it is known.
Someone, I think it was Yama, said he would like to see a picture of that.
As it turned out I never got to Utah beach, the Bayeux Tappestry called instead but later on i got down into Brittany to a place near St James where there is a 28 acre U.S. cemetary and memorial. It is roughly at the place where the U.S. force that was heading south finally fought it's way out of the notorious "Bocage" and onto the open land of Brittany.
This is the town of Arrowmanches on the edge of "gold" beach where the Mulberry harbour was, bits of it are still visible at sea.
(http://www.bbburma.net/CalPrice/Normandy%202009%20019.jpg)
Bayeux Cathedral..
(http://www.bbburma.net/CalPrice/Normandy%202009%20025.jpg)
Mt St Michael
(http://www.bbburma.net/CalPrice/Normandy%202009%20052.jpg)
This is part of the memorial, a French couple asked me why the U.S. had chosen the very English "St George and Dragon" image, now I might be an Atheist but having a catholic partner I nkow a little bit about saint's images so I said I thought it was probably St Michael slaying the serpent (or Devil) as there were no wings on the creature.
The inscritpion says " I have fought a good fight. I have finished my course. I have kept the faith."
(http://www.bbburma.net/CalPrice/Normandy%202009%20066.jpg)
The main avenue of sweet chestnut trees.The tres are obscuring the flagpoles, we arrived about five on a Sunday evening and the flags were being lowered to a recording of the last post. Some young people who looked like U.S. students were doing the flag folding thing that you do.
(http://www.bbburma.net/CalPrice/Normandy%202009%20069.jpg)
And lastly, enough said
(http://www.bbburma.net/CalPrice/Normandy%202009%20072.jpg)
Thanks for sharing!
I know your an athiest cal, but god bless ya, many thanks :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Cheers Yama! - Just to put my mind at rest does anyone know for sure if it it St Michael and the Serpent and is there a deeper significance or is it simply a suitable image for the commemoration?
that id have to look into my friend, am not sure 100% at the moment.
AWESOME !!!!!!
Too cool for words !
Thank you very much for posting this stuff !!
:cheers:
I'm going up into Belgium soon for another motorcycle club "Battlefield Tour" there are bound to be some more knowledgeable than me so I'll ask around. I just wondered if St Michael has a particular significance to the U.S. as some countries have patron saints. like Patrick in Ireland, Andrew in Scotland and Greece etc,.
I have visited quite a few battlefields, monuments and cemetarys in recent years in France and Belgium and they are all in pristine condition, well cared-for and frequently visited not just by the nationals to whom they are dedicated but the locals as well. This applies to Both German and Allied. The only differences being the shape and colour of the stones and the fact that the U.S. & Germans have opted to gather their fallen for burial in a few very large sites whereas the Brits and commonwealth dead tend to lie in many smaller sites following the Brit Army tradition of "Bury them where they fell" The French have a huge national monument at Verdun which is awsome in scale and takes your breath away. I know some people in U.S. have a less than positive image of the French but visiting that place can give you a slightly different perspective and understanding.
The French and Belgians turn up in large family groups and teach the youngsters the whats and whys, it is gratifying to see school groups as well. Around Arramanches many homes and shops display a simple "Thank you" sign. There is a genuine heartfelt respect for the old boys with their berets and medals.
I was on a road trip with an Ozzie friend in '97 and we stopped at a WWI monument to lost Australians somewhere outside Paris. Immaculately kept place. Yeah, they do keep their monuments tidy.
Interesting thing was the monument had scars from shells launched in WWII.
As for the French, I like them just fine. Much of the anti-French thing was started during the W years, mostly by conservative talk-show hosts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, NATO, jets, blah blah blah. It's not that they didn't support the US, they just didn't support a war that was being rushed into by a President with bad information and an itchy trigger finger. How many have died, and continue to die, since then? Have we found those WMD's yet?
The French enjoy a unique identity and way of life. I've been there twice, and I'd jump at the chance to go again. It is a very sensual country...and I don't mean that in a sexual way (but that is part of it). They place a high value on simple things and subtle things, especially in food and the arts. They are more interested in the joys of living life rather than spendiing all their time and money arming themselves to the teeth and jumping into armed conflicts at the drop of a hat.
My grandparents were french and german, which is probably why I'm so self-defeating! :cheers:
I tell ya what Cal, through hte eyes of an athiest, i do appreciate your views on religious icons/statuary/buildings/monuments. many thanks sir :angel:
Great pictures. Europeans have a MUCH different view of war than Americans. They have had them on THEIR OWN soil all too recently, and as a result are a little more reticent about jumping into them. We need some of that wisdom...
Thanks for the pics, Cal!
Quote from: trumpetguy on September 10, 2009, 10:04:40 PM
Great pictures. Europeans have a MUCH different view of war than Americans. They have had them on THEIR OWN soil all too recently, and as a result are a little more reticent about jumping into them. We need some of that wisdom...
Thanks for the pics, Cal!
Indeed we do TG, especially NOW forward , for thousands of years, europe has essentially been at war. not so much now. but you know. england once was THE world superpower, the british empire, was NOTHIGN to take lightly. i admire their architects. their brave soldiers, their religious fellows. and SOME of their leaders actually most. ( minus a few)
Yes, it's a strange equation, the fact that stick in my mind about war is that no British soldier had to fire a shot in Europe for 99 years after the battle of Waterloo (1815-1914) and there was no real conflict at all untill the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 so i suppose the lives lost at Waterloo were, in a way, worth it which would have been no comfort whatsoever to their families and friends.
I'd like to think the current conflicts will bring a lasting peace but the cynical realist tells me otherwise.
Yama - about my Atheism, I often have to say "I may be a heathen but I'm not a barbarian" just to prove the point, amongst the seven charities that I regularly support are the Salvation Army because I like what they do without question or favour and a local thing called "The Romney Marsh Church preservation society" The marsh is faily close and is a much favoured place for bikers, it has some wonderful old, and I'm talking twelfth and thirteenth century old buildings and ruins, mainly churches that are not just beacons in the landscape but also our history. I really like church architecture and the cool peaceful interiors, visited a great many notable churches and cathedrals all over Europe, if Maggie is with me she lights a candle, if I'm on the bike and by definition alone I'll sometimes light one on her behalf like I did in Bayeux.
I guesse I could do a picture thread on European cathedrals one day but it might go on a bit!
heh romney marsh church. ,,, ive got family in the UK who makes reference to that. ive not given it much thought until you referenced it. one of these days, if my health holds out, i am going to tour europe. and see the old churches, as well as our familys ancestral homes and such. its on my to do list
Well I'm in "Whitecliffs" country about 25 mins ride from the marshes, you are welcome here.
Quote from: Cal Price on September 10, 2009, 06:46:30 AM
I'm going up into Belgium soon for another motorcycle club "Battlefield Tour" there are bound to be some more knowledgeable than me so I'll ask around. I just wondered if St Michael has a particular significance to the U.S. as some countries have patron saints. like Patrick in Ireland, Andrew in Scotland and Greece etc,.
I have visited quite a few battlefields, monuments and cemetarys in recent years in France and Belgium and they are all in pristine condition, well cared-for and frequently visited not just by the nationals to whom they are dedicated but the locals as well. This applies to Both German and Allied. The only differences being the shape and colour of the stones and the fact that the U.S. & Germans have opted to gather their fallen for burial in a few very large sites whereas the Brits and commonwealth dead tend to lie in many smaller sites following the Brit Army tradition of "Bury them where they fell" The French have a huge national monument at Verdun which is awsome in scale and takes your breath away. I know some people in U.S. have a less than positive image of the French but visiting that place can give you a slightly different perspective and understanding.
The French and Belgians turn up in large family groups and teach the youngsters the whats and whys, it is gratifying to see school groups as well. Around Arramanches many homes and shops display a simple "Thank you" sign. There is a genuine heartfelt respect for the old boys with their berets and medals.
Thanks for this thread. The part about school children and teaching, wow. We could learn so much here !
Indeed, and Cal ill take you up on that if i can talk my kidneys into not goin on strike :oops: :nono:
Your welcome - by the by whereabouts are your U.K. family?
The Eastenders is my fave-o-rite Tv show :cheers:
The problem is the PBS channel that shows it buggers up the episode sequence
from your version. Hard to keep track of who's doing evil stuff to who :technical:
I'm pretty sure that is the Archangel Michael. The quote on the bottom is 2 Timothy 4:7 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith"
Here is the story: In the famous War in Heaven, Michael is the legendary angel who cast the rebellious Satan out of Heaven after defeating him. This is one example of how Michael plays the role of defeating evil forces. Michael is most commonly depicted in classical art with an unsheathed sword. He is also pictured as a dragon slayer. Pope Pius XII designated him the patron angel of policemen and Roman Catholics call St. Michael the patron saint of Germany, grocers, paratroopers, radiologists and the sick according to Butler in his book, Lives of the Saints.
Amazing pics!
Mary
Thanks Mary,
Your explantion, and quotation, shows why Michael is a fitting image
I thought it was Michael, there is a rather splendid gold image, a weathervane type of thing on top of a tower on one of the public buildings, town hall I think in the Grande Place in Bruxelles - mind you binoculars or a telephoto lens required to see it!
In Britain St Michael is often refered too as the patron saint of underwear as it was used as a brand name for Marks & Spencer who are a clothing chain and the leading retailer of, well you've guessed. Hey-Ho back to the mundane.
Quote from: trumpetguy on September 10, 2009, 10:04:40 PM
Great pictures. Europeans have a MUCH different view of war than Americans. They have had them on THEIR OWN soil all too recently, and as a result are a little more reticent about jumping into them. We need some of that wisdom...
Thanks for the pics, Cal!
Reticent to the point of negotiating with or condoning the actions of extremists and terrorists through deliberate inaction?
Give me a break TG, you're a nice enough guy but today of all days is a reminder of what happens when through inaction a threat to humanity isn't removed.
Cal thanks for the pictures.
Cal, thanks for the pictures. Beautiful. I'm a skeptic m'self and have never found that being one precludes being a decent and poetic person, as you show.
Quote from: bettingpython on September 11, 2009, 01:38:04 PMGive me a break TG, you're a nice enough guy but today of all days is a reminder of what happens when through inaction a threat to humanity isn't removed.
You're very right - it's too bad about all of the crap that happened when we were inactive about removing the Soviet threat to humanity in Afghanistan... er, oops, sorry, I meant when we were inactive about removing the Iranian threat to humanity in concert with Iraq... er, I mean, thank goodness we invaded Iraq, captured Osama, and won their hearts and minds.
Mary, as I'm sure you know your bible ref was 100% spot-on, I looked it up to try and put some context around it. It reminded me of something rather unusual that I spent half a day searching for in Madrid, as far as i know this is the world's only "public" statue of Satan , it supposedly depicts the moment of expulsion from heaven. I believe the title of the works translates fairly simply to "Fallen Angel"
I've always thought it a rather odd subject but there you go.
(http://www.bbburma.net/CalPrice/Madrid%20119.jpg)
Quote from: bettingpython on September 11, 2009, 01:38:04 PM
Reticent to the point of negotiating with or condoning the actions of extremists and terrorists through deliberate inaction?
Give me a break TG, you're a nice enough guy but today of all days is a reminder of what happens when through inaction a threat to humanity isn't removed.
Cal thanks for the pictures.
If bin Laden had been known as such a pressing threat, Bush had eight months to take him out before 9/11. I suppose you think Clinton should have. Whatever -- hindsight is 20/20. Cheney and Bush didn't take him out in seven years of trying AFTER 9/11. The movement (al Qaeda) would have carried on either way.
I was talking about invading Iraq. We NEVER should have been there and it will be years before we can leave for good. We are mired in Afghanistan as well because we took our focus off what we should have done (take out bin Laden). A cynical person might suggest that Rumsfeld called off the operation at Tora Bora because that would have brought closure to what had become a very profitable WAR ON TERROR®.
Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq -- a series of pointless conflicts which should not have had American
involvement. All happened in someone else's back yard, so we don't really have a stake in the destruction (other than loss of American lives). We don't have the same outlook as the Europeans. Maybe
I'm the one who doesn't belong in the USA...
That is very interesting. Did you know in Georgia they have satanic 10 commandments!
i like these kinda things!
Mary
i find fault with ALL presidents, clinton and obama included, now can we not turn this into YET another war/anti war fight?, lets have some civility here.
i can not go to those memorials...i start crying and break down before i even get close enough to read a headstone. even the thought of going to one makes me uncomfortable. i just cannot do it.
I know exactly what you mean, I don't handle it terribly well but I feel that it is something that should be done. I stood at the Menin Gate early this year where they close the street and play the last post at eight EVERY night with tears on my cheeks.
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/events/menin-gate-last-post-ceremony.htm
I will be up there again in a few days. The WW1 battlefields and memorials are real gut wrenchers the shear vastness of them really gets to you.
On the visit picured above I mentioned to one of the other guys who is a big tough guy, nightclub bouncer, sorry door supervisor, that I did not handle it too well when he said he was welling up and in tears. He comes from a Jewish background and read the names out loud from every star of David we passed and there were a lot.
We usually put a small coloured stone or a poppy on one of the unknown just to say someone came, someone cared.
i'm trying to work up the courage to ask my grandfather about his service again. i was 12 last time i tried to talk to him about it. we didn't get to talk much at that time. from what he told me then, and what i've talked with my father about, he was at Normandy and fought his way to Bastonge. Not sure about much else at this point. I'll be calling him in a few days so maybe i'll have a chance to bring it up.
Talk to him now, if you loose the opportunity you will regret it in the future, his generation is slipping away fast.
My parents are both long gone, mum was a soldier on searchlight crews during the bombing and dad was in the Royal Navy. My maternal grandfather was in the army in both world wars, he was getting on in WW2 and stayed on home duties like garding prisoners etc, he was "in the trenches in WW1 and Afghanistan in 1919! (Strange how these things come around)my paternal grandfather was seriously injured by a gas attack in the Ypres salient in WW1 the poor sod did not die untill about four years after the war. He was the only one who was not around to talk to when I was a kid.
The last surving member of Brit forces who fought in WW1 passed away recently so we only have about 20 years to get firsthand experiences from the WW2 generation.
I second that - you need to talk to him ASAP. My grandfather was an artillery man in WWII, went in a couple days after D-Day (AFAIK). He would never talk about the war, and now he has dementia and you can't really talk to him about anything. You never know when they might go.
I wish I had talked with my dad more about Vietnam. He wasn't much interesting in talking about it.
I worked with a really cool 80-year old Jewish guy a few years ago...he was in the American army in France in 1944-5...he had lots of stories, most of which were happy stories. He didn't talk much about the shooting or the friends he lost...he talked a lot about people he met and experiences he had in between the fighting. A real optimist!
When I went to Australia in 1997, I visited the ANZAC Memorial in Sydney. That is one place that will really make an impact on you... I had to fight back the tears. So many have died in wars. It's really astounding what a waste of life it is to fight over things like where a borderline is drawn, or over the beliefs of one group vs. the beliefs of another group. Not that I'm particularly a pacifist; armed conflict is unavoidable at times, but it seems like we get into them far too easily. Invariably, someone gets richer in the process (Halliburton, etc.).
yup, mr clinton used halliburton, during war time, as much as mr bush did, and mr obama as well. im wanting to write a book, from vets points of view (un edited), Telling their stories. its becoming a logistical nightmare
Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on September 13, 2009, 08:36:41 PM
i find fault with ALL presidents, clinton and obama included, now can we not turn this into YET another war/anti war fight?, lets have some civility here.
Civility stems from mutual respect. I don't see my comments as non-civil or as unrelated to the thread.
Anyone who doesn't get a gut-wrenching ANTI-war reaction to seeing a war memorial or battlefield cemetery needs to have their DNA checked to be sure they are human. My question, which should be asked OVER and OVER is: why do we Americans see war as the solution so frequently? Why do we not learn from history?
Isn't the old adage "when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" applicable here? When 50% of our government's budget is spent directly or indirectly on "defense," when we spend more on "defense" than the entire rest of the world combined, when we have VERY powerful military contractors with our politicians in their back pockets, isn't it not only possible but LIKELY that we'll find a way to get into a war and stay there for a long time?
Why can we not change that? That would bring REAL honor to the memories of those who have fought and and those who have died -- that we figured out a way not to sacrifice members of the next generation. Some of you have young children -- it could be them. It could be my stepson. We OWE it to our veterans and heroes to find a way to solve problems differently. What we are doing is NOT working.
Well said my friend, well said :bowdown: :cheers:, i honestly wiht war wasnt even a thing/option/tectic. i honestly wish war did nto exist
BTW tg saw nothign wrong wiht your replies thusfar. , well a few thigns, BUT like i said out of civility and politeness. i wont bring em up. what i foudn was ( to me anyway) VERY minor.