My primary goal for a next bike will be a carbueretor that can be removed without doing 42 other steps first, or fuel injection.
I would go buy either a new Triumph Bonnie (or a classic one) but i'm concerned it will just be another PITA like this thing.
Are all bikes prone to constant tinkering??????
This bike of mine has just been problem after problem this year ( bought it almost exactly one year ago ).
Heck i was going to sell it, but when i posted it for sale, i figured i would give it one last ride..... new OIL LEAK. So i cancelled the sale posting.
I would be completely happy with this bike, and not consider a new one IF IT FRIGGIN WORKED! (I don't want to spend $7k+ for another toy)
First problem was: bad tank petcock (fuel starvation). Took months to figure out and fix. But at least is was ride able at the time.
Then shortly after that an oil leak. Turned out to be a bad crush washer for big bolt that can take a fuel gauge. Two weeks to find and fix.
Then my carbs weren't getting fuel. Turned out to be both float valves were stuck closed. About a week to figure and fix.
I have one tight exhaust valve; 1 loose intake valve, 1 loose exhaust valve, one valve ok. (how did they get loose?) No point in fixing until i can get my bike to stop leaking; one leak after another....
Somewhere in there my battery died on me.
Some time or other i ended up with fuel in my oil.
Some time or other my speedometer cable was leaking oil.
Some time or other i basically gave up and just let her sit outside for a month or two, and pretended i didn't own it.
I've had fuel dumping out of carbs, and i've had no fuel in carbs. I've had plugs that look lean, i've had them look rich. I've had oil leaks occur, then magically cure themselves.
I have spent more time broke down on the side of the road than riding. I've spent much more time wrenching than riding.
Heck, i've owned some real POS cars in my time, never have i had anything fail as often as this thing. Heck, i'd get excited and probably throw a party if something really expensive were to break... then i wouldn't feel bad about leaving it in a ditch with the VIN scratched off. Heck, i'd appreciate it if something simple, but actually an important part breaks, like a chain or sprocket... something truly mechanical, obvious, easy to fix.
I've got brand new tires i bought in December... figured i would need to install them by April, and have new tires for the year...
But instead all i have is less than 300 new miles on the Speedometer since Christmas. I've got a pile of old parts (mostly fuel related) beginning to build. This bike never sat for more than one week without me attempting to ride it (except the time i was fed up and just walked away from it for a month or two), so i don't think the problem is lack of use.)
I've even tried a different set of carbs... ran worse.... ordered a second set of carbs, ran the same.
So it ran okay when i first bought it.... but i was just putting around last year. Never went over 60mph and never really twisted the grip. This year, i can't get the thing to stay running long enough to find out how it runs (though the ONE time i went for a decent ride it ran better than it did in January).
So it's been 9 months of struggling with this thing. In that 9 months i have had one good ride. I have had the fuel tank off upwards of 80 times. I have spent many many hours diagnosing, trying this and that, diddling with this, fiddling with that. It has been something minor every time, but major enough that i felt it unsafe to ride with it like that (or just emberassing, like the oil leaks creating a smoke cloud at stop signs etc). The only upside is i haven't spent much money on it this year (maybe $200 for miscellaneous stuff.
Just today i figured out a way to remove and install the float bowls without removing the carb from the bike. That will be a time saver. Especially since now the bike won't run. It is acting like it is flooded some times, other times it is acting like it is lean. I don't get it. I've followed the procedures for setting everything i can think of. This morning i had fuel dumping out of the carbs... turned out to be float set too high (how that occurred ?dunno, everything with the float looked normal, height adjuster appeared to be at same angle as always (now i have a serious up-bend to lower the float height to proper level))
I can't even get this thing to run well, long enough for me to figure giving it a bath makes sense.
Just seems no matter what i do.... this bike is just not going to let me ride it.
Compression: good
Float height: good
Carb sync: good (or at least last time it ran)
Plugs: they're new. The old ones really did not look that bad.
everything else i can think of: ok
Only problem i can think of that might be a problem is that tight exhaust valve (but it's not THAT tight, it is .02).
This thing should start and idle off of one cylinder anyway... screw that exhaust valve for now.
GRRRRRRRR
End of rant (for now).
Phantom Oil Leaks: If, when you check your oil, it is right up at the very top of the Full mark, you could have a tad too much oil in it. Then, under certain conditions, while riding you increase the oil pressure and Some squeezes past a seal or gasket - but only due to the increased pressure. Cause you don't experience those some identical conditions all the time, you do not see that same "leak" all the time. An oil level between the L and F is fine and should not see those high pressures which, under certain conditions, might seep past something. What oil are you using, as a matter of curiosity?
Fuel issues... you still have a lawnmower fuel filter on, don't you? Piss it off and run the fuel line as Suzuki designed it. If you're anal about having a filter for some reason it Must be for motorcycles and NOT cars. Something like this http://www.bikebandit.com/visu-filter-slimline-compact-body-fuel-filter
This
(http://a2.bikebandit.com/assets/product_images/10VisuFilterSlimlineCompactBodyFuelFilterMD.gif)
NOT This
(http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00PMHTCgaBJIbk/Fuel-Filter-GF61-.jpg)
I have seen smaller fuel filters in a local m'cycle store. So have a look around. I do NOT run a fuel filter because of the Chance of restricted fuel flow.
Fuel flow can also be restricted due to slightly pinched/kinked fuel lines; an aftermarket petcock which doesn't have the needed fuel flow rate, vacuum lock from blocked breather in tank. Have you ruled those out?
Your bike is an 01, are you still running (or trying to run) the 06 carbs on it?
When you say your valves are Loose, what are your actual measurements. Yes, one is 0.02 but what are the others?
Your plugs might be new but have you checked to see if you're getting spark?
Checked timing?
Anyway.... Besides all your issues....
A NEW bike should NOT have such issues. Neither of my bikes (one bought new the other 2nd hand) have any issues whatsoever. So "no", all bikes are NOT a PITA.
If your issues are beyond you - your patience, whatever - and you have the cash on hand, your two choices are... drop the GS at a reputable mechanic and pay him to Fix it (be prepared for a bill close to the cost of the bike) or get yourself the Bonnie. If you would be seeing yourself on a Bonnie at some point anyway, why not now?
New Bonnies in Australia are $12,500 :o And 2nd hand they are for sale for close to $10,000. The Bonnies were more but have come down in price to compete with Kawasaki's W800 (a sweet bike to ride, much like a GS in handling etc.)
Michael
Oil level is closer to the L than F. The oil i am using is: maxima 10w-40 synthetic blend (what the local shop sells).
Not running any kind of fuel filter any longer [i only ever did for a short period of time] except the tank petcock screen.
The loose valves.... i don't remember the exact numbers.... but i remember seeing that they would be dead on if some person did them with a inch feeler gauges (as opposed to metric) and was off by one decimal... So... pretty friggin loose. (i 'think' i 'remember' them being .13 and .12.... but i'm not sure, maybe i checked those and it was looser and decided heck with it...)
I am running the original 2001 carbs [correct, the 2006 carbs ran like doo doo, neat looking paper weights now].
I am getting spark. I have never had a no-spark condition to my knowledge; it has worked every time i have checked it.
I have not checked timing... i will do that once it gets running well enough to check it i reckon. (you meant ignition timing right? I will have to read up on it for motorcycles in general... car would be easy...) (I will have to read up on checking cam timing; but i don't suspect that to cause such weird non-persistent issues.)
I got the bike to start today. One carb bowl had the needle stuck shut again (replaced needle with one out of another carb), and the other had too much fuel in the bowl... adjusted. [makes no sense because i adjusted both spot on last weekend]. So i seem to have carbs with wandering float levels. I did not get them spot on today, i ran out of patience, right carb is about 3mm high, left carb is about 3mm low. I will wait until tomorrow to get them set better. I will also need to re-sync them now.
I am running an aftermarket tank petock (new from oldbikebarn, original had a clogged screen) and an aftermarket frame petcock (the honda 250 mx one). But i have ruled those out by bypassing them whenever i remove the tank... and using a homemade fuel tank (an old copper canteen that i brazed a 5/16" nipple onto [i normally use a filter after that, but not always]) directly to carb; and same problem (whatever that days' problem is) remains.
I am running tygon tubing (i think it is 3/8", with good spring connectors on all fittings) and it has no kinks, all smooth bends.
.... just another day of wrenching instead of riding...
RE: your wandering fuel levels: Could be worn/hard/cracked o-rings on the float needle seats.
The worst thing for a bike is to let it sit. O-rings deteriorate, fuel and oil break down, parts that usually slide against each other stick together.... So if you buy a bike that has been sitting without being ridden, it will have lots of problems. Then you will spend lots of time wrenching instead of riding (sitting without being ridden), see the vicious cycle?
So, if you want to ride instead of turn wrenches, get a new bike or one that is ridden regularly. Or keep at it with your bike and ride with small oil leaks and (slightly) rich or lean condition.
i know EXACTLY how you feel. after fixing a fuel leak this morning due to a fuel line, guess what?
I started it up and it choked at 4krpm just fine, then it got llower and lower and lower...stall.
started again, really rough and LOW idle on full choke, took off choke, stall stall stall
my next bike will NOT be carbed, i can tell you that lol
mine has 8k miles and it's giving me hell, whereas my manager's 1000rr has 20k+ miles and not a single major problem
as for your oil leak, make sure all the bolts are tight and the o-ring seal is good (mine busted after i put it on and ran it)
Youre not telling us something. Im willing to put money on you trying to fix your bike and screwing up as the source of most of your problems.
I cant think of a single WELL MAINTAINED gs500 with the same problems. My bike is a bit finicky and im going to get a new exhaust/air-filter combo with a jet kit installed so it will run even better. I bought my bike from a guy who didnt maintain it at all and performed most of the rebuild and repair piece by piece under the guidance of the Hayne's manual and my friend.
My bike warms up quickly now, and warms up only a minute or so slower than a fuel injected bike. Its idle holds strong and ive once again managed to fix my hanging idle.
Im not bragging. I just find your story lacking someone to blame (yourself).
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 24, 2011, 07:17:58 PM
Quote from: rayshon on September 24, 2011, 06:48:59 PM
i know EXACTLY how you feel. after fixing a fuel leak this morning due to a fuel line, guess what?
I started it up and it choked at 4krpm just fine, then it got llower and lower and lower...stall.
started again, really rough and LOW idle on full choke, took off choke, stall stall stall
my next bike will NOT be carbed, i can tell you that lol
mine has 8k miles and it's giving me hell, whereas my manager's 1000rr has 20k+ miles and not a single major problem
as for your oil leak, make sure all the bolts are tight and the o-ring seal is good (mine busted after i put it on and ran it)
Youre not telling us something. Im willing to put money on you trying to fix your bike as the source of most of your problems.
I cant think of a single WELL MAINTAINED gs500 with the same problems. My bike is a bit finicky and im going to get a new exhaust/air-filter combo with a jet kit installed so it will run even better. I bought my bike from a guy who didnt maintain it at all and performed most of the rebuild and repair piece by piece under the guidance of the Hayne's manual and my friend.
My bike warms up quickly now, and warms up only a minute or so slower than a fuel injected bike. Its idle holds strong and ive once again managed to fix my hanging idle.
Im not bragging. I just find your story lacking someone to blame (yourself).
I dunno maybe you're right, maybe it is me. Or maybe it's my particular bike. or maybe a previous owner.
i don't know and I for sure can't figure it out, so i'm gonna send it to a mechanic for repairs and hope that it'll run like yours does so I can be happy again
ive had me bike for 1 year and ive never had a problem..... well there was the fact my battery didn't charge, but that was because my bike was knocked over on the right hand side and all the magic ran out the breather hose. once i poured some magic back in and gave it a little charge all was good.
i work on the principal if it aint broke dont fix it.... and not to assume i can if i cant (you know ass'u n"me).
Quote from: XLAR8 on September 24, 2011, 07:31:50 PM
ive had me bike for 1 year and ive never had a problem..... well there was the fact my battery didn't charge, but that was because my bike was knocked over on the right hand side and all the magic ran out the breather hose. once i poured some magic back in and gave it a little charge all was good.
i work on the principal if it aint broke dont fix it.... and not to assume i can if i cant (you know ass'u n"me).
how many miles? also do you clean your carbs at all? i know a guy with 30k miles on his GS and he never had to clean his carbs once..
Quote from: rayshon on September 24, 2011, 06:48:59 PM
my next bike will NOT be carbed, i can tell you that lol
mine has 8k miles and it's giving me hell, whereas my manager's 1000rr has 20k+ miles and not a single major problem
My GS has almost 44,000kms on it and ne'er a problem. Then again, it is completely stock - no rejetting or messing about with how it come from Suzuki.
Michael
Fuel in oil, fouled plugs, and fuel overflow out the carbs are all different symptoms of a single problem. Sorry you've had bad luck with your GS; it's usually a pretty reliable bike. :(
Quote from: Paulcet on September 24, 2011, 05:58:13 PM
RE: your wandering fuel levels: Could be worn/hard/cracked o-rings on the float needle seats.
The worst thing for a bike is to let it sit. O-rings deteriorate, fuel and oil break down, parts that usually slide against each other stick together.... So if you buy a bike that has been sitting without being ridden, it will have lots of problems. Then you will spend lots of time wrenching instead of riding (sitting without being ridden), see the vicious cycle?
So, if you want to ride instead of turn wrenches, get a new bike or one that is ridden regularly. Or keep at it with your bike and ride with small oil leaks and (slightly) rich or lean condition.
I think you hit the nail on the head. It has 13,500 miles or so on it. It is a 2001 so it is 10 years old, that is only about 1100 miles a year.
I've already ordered 2 new needles and seats. Maybe that will cure some of the issues. I guess i will find out next weekend. I figured a float got stuck twice.... something is wrong... replace it (i used a spare float needle simply because it was available and meant to be temporary).
I'm sure i will keep wrenching on this thing until i either wear it out from riding it, or it has internal damage, or all the bolts are rounded off from repeated loosening/tightening... i'm too cheap to buy a new bike. When the weather is nice, i really enjoy wrenching on it anyway; but riding it would be better.
It's really just the fuel system that has been the worst of it all... I could deal with it if it were just the few oil leaks it's had; and the valves would have been sorted out long ago if it were running well.
You don't have to have the bike running to check and adjust the valves. If you do it, it will be one less thing you need to worry about when you're trying to diagnose a problem.
sounds like your in need of a full and thorough carb rebuild.
My bike had a lot of issues when I first got it. PO was a tard. I spent the first couple years fixing issues and riding it when I could. It spent the first two winters in a hundred pieces fixing different issues, to be put back together each spring. I've now been riding it for the last couple years with no brake-down's, and only working on it to improve/mod things. Oh by the way, it had 19K miles on it when I got it, and it's about to roll over to 40k miles next week. Another thing is if you have the room, pick up another cheap bike. It sounds like asking for trouble, but if you can keep one going at a time it'll keep your motivation up. Good luck.
I have an 02' Honda CH80 with a 16mm carb and an even smaller pilot jet. It has 3000 miles on it, that's about 300 miles a year or 3 tanks of gas a year, anyway my point is it sits allot and I have NEVER had the carb off it yet. You ask yourself "Stevo how can that be?". It's because whenever I add gas to that bike I also add 1oz of Sta-Bil per gallon because I know how much it sits in the corner. 25+ bikes down the road and not one buggered up carb or plugged pilot jet....yes it is that easy :thumb:
Sta-Bil use it in the off season, waaaaaay too many buggered up carb threads from this forum :nono:
Quote from: rayshon on September 24, 2011, 06:48:59 PM
i know EXACTLY how you feel. after fixing a fuel leak this morning due to a fuel line, guess what?
I started it up and it choked at 4krpm just fine, then it got llower and lower and lower...stall.
started again, really rough and LOW idle on full choke, took off choke, stall stall stall
my next bike will NOT be carbed, i can tell you that lol
mine has 8k miles and it's giving me hell, whereas my manager's 1000rr has 20k+ miles and not a single major problem
as for your oil leak, make sure all the bolts are tight and the o-ring seal is good (mine busted after i put it on and ran it)
that statement is a mistake as all carbs do not clog and mis-step as often as the gs500's. looking back to my gs days, there were so many fueling related problems i'm surprised i still ride.
for whatever reason, my drz has better fueling, better startups, and been completely reliable (other than that wonderful stator) even after drowning it in creeks, sand, mud, you name it.
also, efi is not perfect. my fz6 is proof of that.
the gs has a great engine, great ergos, great reliability, and is a blast to ride. if only the fueling didn't suck i'd still own one. i'd happily give up the fz for a fuel injected gs500-efi. unfortunately, it will never happen.
2 cents, oh, and hello twinners, it's been a while.
Quote from: rayshon on September 24, 2011, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: XLAR8 on September 24, 2011, 07:31:50 PM
ive had me bike for 1 year and ive never had a problem..... well there was the fact my battery didn't charge, but that was because my bike was knocked over on the right hand side and all the magic ran out the breather hose. once i poured some magic back in and gave it a little charge all was good.
i work on the principal if it aint broke dont fix it.... and not to assume i can if i cant (you know ass'u n"me).
how many miles? also do you clean your carbs at all? i know a guy with 30k miles on his GS and he never had to clean his carbs once..
ive done 13000k's and in that time ive had it serviced 3 times and the carbs have never been touched.
Quote from: gs500e on September 24, 2011, 10:40:10 AM
My primary goal for a next bike will be a carbueretor that can be removed without doing 42 other steps first, or fuel injection.
I would go buy either a new Triumph Bonnie (or a classic one) but i'm concerned it will just be another PITA like this thing.
Are all bikes prone to constant tinkering??????
not all bikes.. maybe just ones you buy that are 10 years old :-/
Quote from: XLAR8 on September 25, 2011, 08:28:23 AMive done 13000k's and in that time ive had it serviced 3 times and the carbs have never been touched.
Totally believable...If you ride your bike enough to keep the fuel fresh, that helps. I'm guessing the brand of gas might have some bearing on the situation also? Storing your bike indoors will definitely help allot in keeping the fuel in good shape.
Today i was going to take the bike to the auto parts store for some stabil, get some lunch, and stop by the bank. And go for a random ride if all that went well.... I hadn't gotten the float levels spot on today, so i figured it would be a quick jaunt...
First i rode around the neighborhood. It ran fairly well for the first two minutes, just a slight amount of stuttering, like it was a touch lean. Then it began the bogging: lots of intake sound, no power, extremely unresponsive, no go juices; acting like it was rich. Not even enough power to self right coming out of a turn in first gear. I figure the float level adjusted itself again (or one of the needles got stuck shut again, and what felt rich was very lean perhaps). I've got too much house stuff to do today; so i will wait until after the needles and seats arrive to mess with it further. So not much riding today, never left the neighborhood... not enough power. But was fun to be on the bike anyway, longest ride in a long time without it cutting out.
I did add Stabil to it today however, maybe that will help in the long run. I figured i had 2-3 gallons of gas in the tank, so i put 3 ounces of Stabil in there. Then took it for another ride in the neighborhood to get the stabil into the carbs, still bogged.
EVERYTHING about a used bike depends on the care it received from previous owners, and how good a mechanic worked on the bike. Sounds like you got one that didn't get great care. Sorry to be so blunt.
I have missed deals because I take a little extra time looking and asking questions. Evaluating the bike and talking to the owner will usually let you know if the bike has had good care.
Quote from: ohgood on September 25, 2011, 08:22:14 AM
that statement is a mistake as all carbs do not clog and mis-step as often as the gs500's. looking back to my gs days, there were so many fueling related problems i'm surprised i still ride.
for whatever reason, my drz has better fueling, better startups, and been completely reliable (other than that wonderful stator) even after drowning it in creeks, sand, mud, you name it.
also, efi is not perfect. my fz6 is proof of that.
the gs has a great engine, great ergos, great reliability, and is a blast to ride. if only the fueling didn't suck i'd still own one. i'd happily give up the fz for a fuel injected gs500-efi. unfortunately, it will never happen.
2 cents, oh, and hello twinners, it's been a while.
oh trust me i LOVE riding my gs..when it works ):< the fueling system is so simple yet (my particular bike) is so problematic...it's crazy.
also what kinds of problems has your fz6 been having?
Bought a Katana this weekend.. my GS500E (named PITA) just doesn't want to do anything but strand me anymore....
Hey GS 500e, good rant !
So many people seem to have problems with the gs, and then others, not so much,,, I dunno man, it's like fate or something - my bike is a '95 and I've only had the carbs off once in 5 yrs of ownership for a rejet, not even a 'cleaning' (there was crud in the float bowls, but I just left it there).
Oil leaks ? Must be pretty bad to worry you so much - mine has dribbled oil since I bought it, a few drops here and there. Nice for conditioning the leather on my left boot, looks good, I like it so no worries there 'bout the oil.
GS twins.com wised me up about the fuel starvation/petcock problem, so I got rid of it before having the problem out on the highway - ran tygon fuel line straight from the tank - no intermdiate petcock, only a filter and a cutoff valve.
Sounds like you're beyond your frustration limit - and may be creating a multitude of problems instead of fixing the original one. Which I'd bet involves the ignition system somehow. You didn't mention anything 'bout that except to say you've got spark.
Well, the classic test for spark can be worse than useless - spark when I crank with plugs out and grounded on the cylinder head means all ok right? No, not necessarily. Doesn't tell you what the ignition can do under load at 6000 rpm ... or even just cranking against compression .
Although troubleshooting/diagnoses should be a logical progression, wrenching is more of a black art than a flow chart science - if you run into a brick wall of a problem, then you have to attack it from another direction ... bike won't run, hmmm maybe not the carbs after all, maybe not the fuel system .... maybe there's a bunny nest in the airbox. or not.
It's frustrating to read these accounts (there are so many) 'cuz I know I could have your bike runnning in a day or less, or know the real reason why not - the gs500 is a dog simple machine, there's not much really that can go wrong - carbs simple, fuel delivery also simple, Ignition, pretty simple. Valves ? as long as they're not broken/melted or something the thing should run ...
Maybe you're overthinking it too much, too involved, fed up, whatever, but sounds like you need some distance probably to the extent of getting rid of that which you have come to hate (understandably).
On a side note, there are 2 kinds of Stabil. If you live in a state that adds ethanol to the fuel you should be using the Stabil with the white label.
-Jessie
Stabil for ethanol blended fuels
(http://www.bladepowersports.com/prodimages/STABIL%20FOR%20ETHANOL.jpg)
Old school Stabil
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41yGGqpoGYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The pepboys i went to today had sta-bil (which did say something on it about 'curing ethanol problems' or similar jargon).
The only other choice was to get marine sta-bil.... which i almost got (cuz i have a little boat).
(I basically got the bottom one in your picture; which says it is for ethanol fuels. I think true old skool sta-bil (pre-ethanol) did not say 'improved formula' up top.)
If it is wrong i reckon i'll get the marine one soon.
I will say this: my fuel has been a fairly deep yellow. I added the stabil to the bike, then i got carried away and put it everything that has fuel in it. My 3 gallon gas can had yellow gas (some of it went into the gs). After adding the stabil about an hour before, when pouring it into my lawn mower, i noticed it was much more clear/less yellow. That may be my whole problem... bad gas all along (i have dumped the gas out of the gs tank at least twice in the past 3 months... but i always buy gas at the same gas station (A Sunoco) so maybe they have bad gas they're selling. [i did always think gas was clearer/less yellow... but i hadn't paid attention to gas since the ethanol junk was added.]
Plus my tank petcock was gleaned over with fuel varnish (which is why it was replaced)... i can't imagine that same varnish wasn't everywhere else... (it's not gleaned over currently... or at least not as bad as the old one was, fuel flows out pretty quick).
Big thanks to BigBrother for the Ethanol... about as helpful as enriching gas with inert gases.... that wreak havoc.
(i have had some popping out of the right carb... which i reckon is a lean indicator so.... but then again, see all my previous posts)
I ordered 20 size pilot jets and 135 mains... so i will be using 20/60/135, instead of stock jetting soon. (wiki recommended)
As mentioned earlier i have needles and seats already ordered... so i will be installing those.
I will be getting the valves set by the end of the week (work/weather permitting).
So... if i can't get it running right after that, well... i'll probably sell it cheap.
I'm tempted to ask rkjjeep to ride 620 miles instead of 300 for delivery. I'd pay for a hotel and return flight; or he could ride my GS back for a few bucks off the purchase price of the 06' (i'd let him use my tools to get it running right, lol)
;) I might buy it anyway... it looks good and price seems reasonable.
Bigfatcat: I would agree about the ignition... except everything keeps leading me to fuel issues. I have found the float needles stuck closed more than once. My tank petcock was bad. My frame petcock... i still think it was bad, but not so sure(could have been a lack of vacuum to open it, due to it running poorly). Though i have stood back staring at the bike in complex dissatisfaction a few times and wondered about the blue smoke still being inside the ignition box and coils... lol.
I use the red Sta-Bil :cheers:
i add half a cup of methelated spirts every tank full.never had to clean carbs . rejeted it 9000 miles ago advanced timing 3 mm set float at 14mm as per Factory Pro instructions get 68 to 69 miles per gallon not going over 70 mph . 38 miles round trip every day.ride in rain and sunshine but bike is kept under cover at night.. Many problems are caused by petrol stations having water in tanks ,i always buy petrol from petrol stations with high volume turnover. i trust the tank filter to do its job..
Rod
I don't add anything and have never had to clean the carbs.
And now a thought... if your Standard gunks up all the time, why not switch to premium as meant for FI vehicles cause its additives are meant to keep injectors clean so obviously it would also keep carb jets clean too, wouldn't it? Then no more grief with always having to clean the carbs and jets and whatnot.
Michael
Quote from: mister on September 26, 2011, 02:56:56 AM
I don't add anything and have never had to clean the carbs.
And now a thought... if your Standard gunks up all the time, why not switch to premium as meant for FI vehicles cause its additives are meant to keep injectors clean so obviously it would also keep carb jets clean too, wouldn't it? Then no more grief with always having to clean the carbs and jets and whatnot.
Michael
wait it takes regular? i've always been using premium (so has the previous owner)...that's what the owners manual that I downloaded said
Quote from: rayshon on September 26, 2011, 10:06:44 AM
Quote from: mister on September 26, 2011, 02:56:56 AM
I don't add anything and have never had to clean the carbs.
And now a thought... if your Standard gunks up all the time, why not switch to premium as meant for FI vehicles cause its additives are meant to keep injectors clean so obviously it would also keep carb jets clean too, wouldn't it? Then no more grief with always having to clean the carbs and jets and whatnot.
Michael
wait it takes regular? i've always been using premium (so has the previous owner)...that's what the owners manual that I downloaded said
If it's an OEM owner's manual I doubt it says to use premium - and certainly does NOT say that if it's the one you downloaded from the wiki, cause I scanned it and uploaded the link.
In the USA 87 is what other countries call 91.
91 Research Method is Not the method used by the USA for Octane Rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating) - they use an average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) and this is written as (R+M)/2 as seen in the owner's manual.
Michael
Mister, you get to ride year round, correct? I believe thats why you dont need to add anything to your gas. Here in Pennsylvania, the (comfortable) riding season is only about 6 to 8 months. Thats a long time for gas to sit in carbs.
Worked some OT today, so didn't get much accomplished today on the bike (aside from waiting for new parts... ).
Checked float bowl level, both were high today. Odd, as right was high and left was low yesterday. (I think the new needles/seats are going to cure this thing 90%, knock on wood.)
Hopped on and went for a quick ride. It was a bit improved -> odd as i did nothing since yesterday's ride.
Today it had a bit more power. Low rpm's were bogging, mid rpms were stuttering, higher rpms were stuttering/sputtering.
My guess is rich on low end, lean everywhere else... or lean everywhere (more likely).
(I know the carb is supposed to be based on throttle position not rpm so.... 1/8 throttle = boggy. 1/4 = boggy. 1/2 throttle = boggy then stuttering. 3/4 throttle = boggy then stuttering. WOT = boggy then stuttering. Idles fine. Checked float level after ride, both still high. Excessive 'intake' sound during all attempts to accelerate, but not as bad as yesterday.) Right carb popping for first minute or so of warm-up.
My only guesses for change in performance: A) it is about 20degF colder now than yesterdays ride. B) Stabil is starting to clean stuff up. C) float needles were wandering 'better' today. D) Dumb luck. E) I had a long sucky day at work, so i was quite willing to twist the throttle a lot. F) i actually washed the bike yesterday evening... maybe it was thanking me.
Hopefully i will get home in time to re-measure valves [and write it down this time] and order shims tomorrow (but i doubt it, i'm working two hours away tomorrow).
Well, that was the day's update. It was fun being able to get above 30mph (even though it probably wasn't real good for the bike since it wasn't running right).
Quote from: mister on September 26, 2011, 12:04:18 PM
Quote from: rayshon on September 26, 2011, 10:06:44 AM
Quote from: mister on September 26, 2011, 02:56:56 AM
I don't add anything and have never had to clean the carbs.
And now a thought... if your Standard gunks up all the time, why not switch to premium as meant for FI vehicles cause its additives are meant to keep injectors clean so obviously it would also keep carb jets clean too, wouldn't it? Then no more grief with always having to clean the carbs and jets and whatnot.
Michael
wait it takes regular? i've always been using premium (so has the previous owner)...that's what the owners manual that I downloaded said
If it's an OEM owner's manual I doubt it says to use premium - and certainly does NOT say that if it's the one you downloaded from the wiki, cause I scanned it and uploaded the link.
In the USA 87 is what other countries call 91.
91 Research Method is Not the method used by the USA for Octane Rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating) - they use an average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) and this is written as (R+M)/2 as seen in the owner's manual.
Michael
(http://i56.tinypic.com/300uyad.png)
"91 or higher" and here we have only 87 for regular 89 and 93 which is premium..but that isn't talking about what the type of gas i should use? that's confusing ):
so what you're saying is I should use regular then huh?
I run 87 in mine. It get's a bit better mileage with it.
Quote from: rkjjeep on September 25, 2011, 01:53:23 PM
EVERYTHING about a used bike depends on the care it received from previous owners, and how good a mechanic worked on the bike. Sounds like you got one that didn't get great care.
Exactly. I've had 6 bikes in 32 years of riding and my son's 05 GS500F is his third bike and it is far and away the worst pos I've ever had the displeasure to deal with. And I don't know if it was the previous owner or the original. Either way I'd like to punch someone.
Lots of rust in hard to see places. Months of sorting out the various oil leaks. Endless carburetor issues. Turn signal issues. A blown rear shock. Indicator bulbs blowing all the time. Then finding out through this forum that the engine for the bike is from an 00, not the original. My 04 V-Strom with 50% more miles is in far better shape.
If him or I ever buy another used bike there will be a lot of research, checking, testing, investigation and questions. And if the seller doesn't like it I'm walking.
A 89-00 GS carb if set up right will need a light look over every other year. I think its floats will drift high making it rich. 3 years maybe ... just a U tube check and if its right, leave it be.
Jet them to non epa spec and set floats correct and find and fix all the O rings that are dry etc, put some sealant on the float gasket and the carbs will really work for ever, The GSXR's which used the same carbs wear needles and get those too rich, I however dont see it happening in gs'es really.
The 04+ carbs, same deal, except they dont have drifting floats, and have a lot fewer O rings that count. Float spigot may be the only one in those. An 01+ carb literally is jet it and forget it.
01-02 is close to the 04+ but there is an extra O ring in the top that is a concern for drying out.
These are for bikes with clean air filters, with valves in spec and used regularly. Dont park it for 2 years or run it without an air filter in a dusty environment or with a motor that spews carbon into the carb.
I've got seamax's carbs back after 3 years, they really needed a float adjust and a set of O rings, which 3 years ago I didn't have. He sprung a leak (I suggested he may need to go to a doctor but ... ) and the old O rings and drifting floats are the likely cuplrit.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: rayshon on September 26, 2011, 06:44:46 PM
Quote from: mister on September 26, 2011, 12:04:18 PM
Quote from: rayshon on September 26, 2011, 10:06:44 AM
Quote from: mister on September 26, 2011, 02:56:56 AM
I don't add anything and have never had to clean the carbs.
And now a thought... if your Standard gunks up all the time, why not switch to premium as meant for FI vehicles cause its additives are meant to keep injectors clean so obviously it would also keep carb jets clean too, wouldn't it? Then no more grief with always having to clean the carbs and jets and whatnot.
Michael
wait it takes regular? i've always been using premium (so has the previous owner)...that's what the owners manual that I downloaded said
If it's an OEM owner's manual I doubt it says to use premium - and certainly does NOT say that if it's the one you downloaded from the wiki, cause I scanned it and uploaded the link.
In the USA 87 is what other countries call 91.
91 Research Method is Not the method used by the USA for Octane Rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating) - they use an average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) and this is written as (R+M)/2 as seen in the owner's manual.
Michael
(http://i56.tinypic.com/300uyad.png)
"91 or higher" and here we have only 87 for regular 89 and 93 which is premium..but that isn't talking about what the type of gas i should use? that's confusing ):
so what you're saying is I should use regular then huh?
"In the USA 87 is what other countries call 91.
91 Research Method is Not the method used by the USA for Octane Rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating) - they (
the USA and Canada) use an
average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) and this is
written as (R+M)/2 as seen in the owner's manual."
See your clip.... 91 Research Method... The USA does NOT use that method. Now look below... see what is says for Canada, "your motorcycle requires unleaded gasoline with a Minimum pump octane rating of 87 ((R+M)/2))... that is the Minimum you should use.
My point is, the manual does NOT say to use premium.
Now that is clear... you can use whatever fuel you like - standard, premium, super-duper premium. It won't (shouldn't) make any difference to the performance of the bike because the compression of the GS is not high enough.
Octane is not an Energy Rating where higher octane means more oomph from the fuel. It is an anti-knock rating. The higher the engine's compression the more likelihood the gas will auto detonate due to the heat and pressure just like a diesel engine. To prevent this from happening so the gas only explodes when the spark fires, the higher octane fuels come into play. They resist the urge to auto-detonate. The engine in the GS500 does not have enough compression for auto-detonation to be a problem. So, in theory, you should get no benefit from running higher than standard gas in the motor. (Heck, even my 919 suggests standard as the Minimum)
However, that's in theory. You have to go by your own real world results. If you try standard and get X mileage and premium gives you better, then you can now make a decision on which fuel you will use from then on. My own results show a brand bias - I get better mileage on BP and Caltex than Shell - both bikes and car show the same results. Bikes perform the same on BP standard or premium, car does marginally better on premium.
Having said that, yes, we do ride year around. So I can appreciate that we don't have fuel sitting in carbs for great lengths of time, but this problem in the US seems to extend to those places where riding is year around. So I do wonder if there is a slight change in gas standards between the two places and your gas has slightly different additives in it that make gumming more likey?
Michael
Great info there.^ Answer's quite a few of my questions. And yes, I've heard several times that they sell different blends of gas in different area's here.
I just want to post to say that I COMPLETELY relate.
I bought my 94 GS500 with 2k miles on it this summer, about 3 months back, having never messed around with much of anything mechanical.
I've put maybe 50 miles on it over the course of 3 hours.
I've spent probably 50 hours working on it. Spent another 300+ on parts and manuals and tools.
Resealed gas tank, redid all fuel hoses, rejetted, new o-rings all around, new needle and seat, and it still doesn't run. It's still sitting in my driveway.
I'm completely and utterly defeated and when I see my motorcycle covered in my driveway I just feel guilt that I even bought it. I feel guilty that I don't use every single (rare) day off that I get to work on it before the winter gives me an excuse not to. I can't afford the ridiculous labor cost to take it to a pro and I'm not sure what else to do even if I did get positive and try to figure it out.
I guess all I'm saying is that you're not alone. If I could do it all over again I'd have spent more and gotten something fuel injected. As it is now I just feel like a twofold idiot for buying an older bike then thinking I could actually get it running.
I expected my GS to be a source of fun and excitement, but all it's been is a huge lump of disappointment, obligation, stress, and guilt.
I don't have problems and everyone I know with a GS500 here doesn't have problems. Like any vehicle, there is the occasional lemon. I think back to other bikes I had 30 years ago. never had problems - then I never did take them apart or do much in maintenance.
I don't see why fuel injection is the solution. It has its own set of problems. Carbs have been around for over a hundred years. They work. Carbs don't work if messed up. Fuel injection won't work if it is messed up.
In my software business, I tend to see 99% of the problems with 0.1% of the people. I think there are people that just always do the wrong thing or can't see a simple solution and only make things worse.
Thinking back on what I have seen on this board, it seems there are a few people with 99% of the problems. The rest of us never have a problem. I don't know what it is. Maybe the Red-Green saying is true: "If it ain't broke, you're not trying hard enough."
Maybe it is that some people just keep doing things and keep doing it wrong. I don't know. I remember cousins when I grew up who always had to work on their car. They were never reliable. Maybe they never fixed things right or with the slightest problem, felt they had to tear into things. I've had to repair a couple things on Trey. But before I tore into things, I thought about the problem and had friends and the dealer also offer tips. It was never un-rideable, but had some annoying things. Ended up just replacing the steering bearings. Rather than tear into wheels and everything else, we took time to find the one solution.
Same with the grinding in the chain. Some people would have started tearing into things, replacing gears, bearings and anything else. We took time to determine it was just the un-oiled chain started to stick when it was oiled. Part of it was determining when the problem started. Thinking back, I remembered it started shortly after oiling the chain. Determined it was with each revolution of the chain - not each revolution of the wheel. Ergo, not wheel bearings but most likely the chain - which it was upon examination (see postings of the frozen links in the chain.).
Again, I really don't know the source of all the problems just a couple people always have. Neither can I understand the need to tear into the carbs on a weekly basis unless whoever is doing it is doing it wrong or there is a bad part in there that they are not seeing and replacing.
We have read of people who want to do everything as cheap as possible. They need a battery and want to save $5 so they go cheap at wally-world, only to have a battery with the terminals reversed, vent tube on the wrong side and then start complaining about how bad the GS500 is because their battery never stays charged and they must have a battery tender. Spend a few dollars more for a better battery and you never have a problem. Don't want to spend $75 or more for a top quality battery? Then don't complain about batteries.
A lot of things can be fixed by carefully analyzing the problem. Indicator bulbs blowing all the time? Turn signals never working right? Well, Junior developed a problem of the headlight blowing. Hmmm..... electricity. What blows a headlight? Too much of it? So I took a meter and measured. Voltage right on. Revved the engine - over 18 volts! Wow! That can blow a 12 volt bulb and I know a digital meter only does averaging. If I looked at it on a scope I'd probably have seen voltage spikes way higher. Probably an analog meter I'd see the needle flipping higher. What could that be? There is a voltage regulator - nothing else regulates the voltage. The faster the engine goes the more electricity it makes and a higher voltage, too. So replaced that with a spare and problem solved. What it comes down to is examining the problem and finding the right solution. So if your bulbs are always blowing, then you probably need to replace the regulator and first check things with a meter. Don't want to spend $100 for a new one or $25 for a used one? Then don't complain about bulbs always going out.
Maybe someone has a lemon or maybe some people will always have problems - like my cousin that always had to be working on his car. Maybe someone needs to spend a little more to get things fixed correctly and be done with it. Maybe you sometimes just need to accept that everything isn't perfect - so you use the choke more on one bike than another - that's they way they are.
You have ugly people who are happy and everyone likes. Then you had Michael Jackson and the never ending plastic surgery to become beautiful that resulted in a walking corpse. Maybe some people are destined to always have problems. Maybe some people are just unlucky.
I don't have an answer. And that's just my opinion.
that is a long aaaaaaass post! lol
you have to realize that probably 10% (rough guess, probably higher) of the people that own GS's come to this forum, half of those people(another probably wrong guesstimate) come here to deal with problems.
So yeah you are right when .01% of the people have the problems, but this forum is to help the .01% (including me :icon_lol:)
I know you ride yours a lot, but what do you do as far as preventative maintenance for carbs/the fuel system?
Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I do basic things like good gas, fuel additive, keep things clean.
I'm not about to tear into perfectly good working carbs until I start to see a problem. I believe in less is better. If it is working fine, how can I make it better if I tear into it?
I do other basic maintenance as one would expect, like oil, greasing things, cleaning things, etc.
If there is a problem or I can tell something is getting worse, I will try to determine exactly what it is. I have neither the time nor the desire to rip everything apart with no idea of what the problem really is.
I have had problems with Trey and posted here for opinions. Maybe a tinkerer would have gone right in and removed the wheel, remounted the tire or other things. I took my time to really know the problem then we changed the steering bearings (which really weren't bearings any more, just rusty gunk that used to maybe be a bearing). Trey wasn't un-rideable. He just started to ride strange after 10 minutes or so. So I could deal with it while looking for the solution. Seemed the non-bearings would warm up and cause the steering column to not move freely, so the bike felt like a flat tire and wouldn't automatically want to go straight. Like I said, if I was a tinkerer I would have been ripping into everything.
Less is better - know the problem then fix it.
Every time you open up something you run the risk of doing more harm than good.
I agree that lots of people come here to solve problems. Just seems that only a couple really have continuing, serious problems. Like my problems, most are simple to diagnose and get solved.
Sometimes it is a choice: spend countless hours on something I don't know how to fix (and not be able to ride) or spend $200 for a good set of used carbs that are known to be working, plop them on and go riding.
I'm fortunate to have more than one bike so I could tear one apart if I wanted to and still be able to ride. My choice is to spend a little more money and spend less time wrenching.
The time will come when I do have to tear into things. Trey's previous owners did not take good care of him (steering bearings, chain, etc.). In preparation for that I am collecting spare parts. When time for carbs: I have a spare set I can work on then just swap them. Wheels: I have spares so I can get tires & bearings on them, then just swap out the wheels. Same with forks: I bought spares, fixed them in spare time then took half an hour to swap them out on Junior. Now his leaking forks are in a box and will be repaired as time permits. Having spares means the bike is kept running and only down for as long as it takes to swap out a part.
Brakes: I found it cheaper and easier to buy used calipers from Pinwall for $15 from a 2009 with 1000 miles than to buy new pads and rebuild the old ones. As long we have an endless supply of squids crashing their new bikes, there will be plenty of perfectly good parts to just swap with the old ones. I even got brake rotors and calipers from a bike with 240 miles. Like-new parts for less than it would cost to rebuild the old parts.
Yes, I am replacing brake lines with SS. I am putting on new tach and throttle cables on Trey. As I mentioned - when you dig into something you can do more damage. Those cables got pulled on and were damaged when we removed the front end. They are OK, but I can see their life is limited so I am replacing them now before they fall off. Pulling around all the wires when I put in a headlight cut-out relay (when pressing the start button), the tach cable got bumped a lot. I saw it coming off and knew the throttle cable had been damaged, so I'm replacing both before complete failure. Fix one thing: something else can get broken, which is why I feel less messing around is better.
When I get into carbs, I'll clean the spare set. Then swap them. If bike runs worse, I'll swap back then figure out what I did wrong as time permits. Then swap them and see if I did it right. There are advantages to being a parts whore.
So today the new jets arrived. (That was quick, thanks PJMotorsports)
I swapped them out. I lowered the float level a wee bit (didn't check with clear tube yet). :embarassed: And I found a problem, and re-discovered another: Main jets were different... now they are the same (re-discovered: same size but different brands perhaps... one had a larger than normal 'collar' on it). And i found a vacuum leak at the vacuum port 'plug' (i must have damaged it last time i removed it... or maybe it's been pin-holed the whole time, and just now got a good rip in it). [Don't get me started on the jet different... thing... i don't hold grudges... that is over... it is ok now]. I'm not going to over think the float level (and sync'ing) until the new needle/seats arrive though. :D
I did all that with a flashlight in my mouth... kinda fun(not). Got done, took it for a very quick ride. It had more power than has ever had... wasn't a gutless pig. On warmup it sputtered and spat... but it was throwing some fuel out the exhaust (I finally got it rich rather than lean, YAY) and was backfiring out the exhaust rather than out the carb. Once warmed up it was a little doggy on the low end; okay it was a lot doggy on the low end (could just need the pilot screws turned in a bit? Oh, i should hold-off until the float seats are replaced eh). But from mid to WOT.... i actually had to hang on to it and pay attention rather than doing the 'knee out, head bent to the side, look at the engine as if i'm going to 'see' something wrong with it' thing. Was only about a one mile ride (i had not geared up beyond helmet). Then it started raining so it was dinner time.
Oh and it sounded much better too above 3k rpm. I accidentally revved it up to about 9k in neutral because it got there so much quicker than i am use to it doing. I was expecting it to make the 'intake' sound and rpm's barely creep... but instead it made a 'chain saw' sound and revved quick. :thumb:
The best news is that i'm getting good at pulling the carbs off, did it in less than ten minutes for the first time. The biggest help is that i have the tools laid out on my 'motorcycle tool tray' (an old pizza/baking pan) (i don't have a garage, and the shed is full of other toys and stuff; so i work on the bike in the street most of the time) and i have the twelve step process down to a science now. :icon_rolleyes:
Looks like the rain is going to be here for a while, so i will have to get a good ride in tomorrow and see how it goes... or better yet the needles/seats could arrive... and i'll get to wrench on it some more tomorrow, and go for a ride this weekend (knock on wood). :cheers:
(I'm not afraid to ride in the rain with proper gear on and i get caught in it... but i don't generally purposely ride in the rain... remember i'm still a noob to riding (had a good 1500 miles last year in 3 months, <200 this year, yay.) O0
Well that was today's update anyway.
That's really awesome man! I'm glad to hear you're getting it figured out.
Glad you discovered the cause of so many problems.
Now you can ride and enjoy your bike.
It's not that great yet.
Took it for a ride. Sometimes it would accelerate very well, ran out of legal speeds fairly quick on back roads.
Other times it would just be a dog. Most of the time really. Giving throttle wouldn't necessarily create any more accleration whet it was being a dog. But when it worked it was a lot of fun.
At first i thought it was running better after idling for a little while... then i disproved that at a few stop signs, and by intentionally stopping for a bit, then going again; or by pulling in clutch and idling downhill.
It was very inconsistent, i found no habits that caused it, improved it, or had consistent results.
But what is known to be inconsistent on this bike: float needles. So hopefully those will get here soon.
It is certainly rich at idle (better than lean i reckon). Mid throttle seems to be the most inconsistent. WOT was either a rocket (okay more like a bottle rocket) or a dog. Sometimes everything would click, and it would accelerate out of no where at WOT... so things must be close to being right now.
I am going to disassemble the needles some time and post pics and what order things are in... since i am not sure what order they should all be in... and i'm guessing i should richen them up a wee bit? or leave stock? (some posts about enriching from stock mentioned adding washers, some didn't mention the needles at all, some said they left them alone... so i don't know.) I still need to do the valves too; which i should get to this weekend; then sync carbs.
BUT! It was a BLAST getting out of the neighborhood on it! :thumb:
Success!
Changed out: float needles and seats, floats (taken from my spare 06' carbs), set the float level. Checked a few things over, but found no issues.
Started better, warmed up better, ran for 30 miles better... about to find out if it will run better for another few miles.
rant/
Sweet!! Good luck. It's strange that the 06 carbs them selves didn't improve it from the get go..
Quote from: gs500e on September 29, 2011, 02:56:50 PM
Sometimes everything would click, and it would accelerate out of no where at WOT
What causes this?
Sometimes when I go from closed throttle to open quickly (like blipping the throttle to revmatch for a downshift) it'll just "click"...wtf is that?
Quote from: rayshon on September 30, 2011, 06:03:10 PM
Quote from: gs500e on September 29, 2011, 02:56:50 PM
Sometimes everything would click, and it would accelerate out of no where at WOT
What causes this?
Sometimes when I go from closed throttle to open quickly (like blipping the throttle to revmatch for a downshift) it'll just "click"...wtf is that?
I think you he may be talking about a different kind of click..
Yours sounds like maybe a throttle cable issue, or linkage maybe.
Quote from: adidasguy on September 28, 2011, 02:55:13 PM
I don't have problems and everyone I know with a GS500 here doesn't have problems. Like any vehicle, there is the occasional lemon. I think back to other bikes I had 30 years ago. never had problems - then I never did take them apart or do much in maintenance.
I don't see why fuel injection is the solution. It has its own set of problems. Carbs have been around for over a hundred years. They work. Carbs don't work if messed up. Fuel injection won't work if it is messed up.
Fuel injection is more reliable for one. You should know this in the software business. The less moving parts, the less there is to break and when it breaks it's easy to fix. Carbs are nothing but moving parts and tiny seals. Any one of these tiny seals being fractions of a mm off causes a problem that could cause you to replace or rebuild the entire unit. Carbs and fuel injection do the same thing, yes, but carbs are more prone to minute mechanical failure and have to be warmed up properly before use. The cost in labor to find the problem often equates the cost of fixing a fuel injection problem (for which a computer tells you the EXACT problem). However, it's a lot harder to break a fuel injection system.
Fuel injection has it's own problems. All of them are quickly diagnosed by the on board computer, reported back on a laptop, and analyzed all without opening the machine. If it doesn't do that, it will give you a good starting point before you start to tear it down.
All in all, fuel injection and carbs have problems but you'll spend more money maintaining carbs than fuel injection. Fuel injection should be the defacto standard. Why it's not is the same reason that Harley doesn't give you the best parts in your off-the-lot bobber. They want you to spend money so you have to come and fix it. When you don't, you will pay the extra money for the more reliable system.
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 30, 2011, 10:01:09 PM
Fuel injection should be the defacto standard. Why it's not is the same reason that Harley doesn't give you the best parts in your off-the-lot bobber. They want you to spend money so you have to come and fix it. When you don't, you will pay the extra money for the more reliable system.
With the exception of HDs, carb bikes are cheaper new. From a business point of view, it gets a customer in the door. Once in, they will, at some point in time, buy another bike. Get them in, then upsell them later. It's not about buying something reliable later (to the manufacturer, they need to make something reliable otherwise it will get a bad name and not sell and they lose the initial customer).
But I am with addy on this one... those who seem to have the most problems are those who mess around the most. Did the messing around cause all the issues, or did the issues cause the messing around, or did it become a chain of cause and effect - small issues caused messing which caused more issues which caused more messing and more issues ad infinitum.
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/23/128666736611636400.jpg)
On the bright side Angry Icon Man, you seem to be making some progress. :thumb:
Michael
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 30, 2011, 10:01:09 PMFuel injection is more reliable for one.
That's like saying
"water cooled bikes are more reliable than air cooled" If I wanted a
super reliable bike, it would have a carb and cooling fins. No water pump, radiator, radiator hoses, fuel pump or ECU. Because it's not open to the atmosphere FI is less prone to have gumming or plugging issues from varnish. 90% of all carb issues are caused by the owner not using proper storage precautions. If you ride a bike year round, carbs work fine, if you store a bike correctly, carbs work fine. Having more things that can fail and leave you stranded on the side of the road will never make anything more reliable.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on September 30, 2011, 11:10:38 PM
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 30, 2011, 10:01:09 PMFuel injection is more reliable for one.
That's like saying "water cooled bikes are more reliable than air cooled" If I wanted a super reliable bike, it would have a carb and cooling fins. No water pump, radiator, radiator hoses, fuel pump or ECU. Because it's not open to the atmosphere FI is less prone to have gumming or plugging issues from varnish. 90% of all carb issues are caused by the owner not using proper storage precautions. If you ride a bike year round, carbs work fine, if you store a bike correctly, carbs work fine. Having more things that can fail and leave you stranded on the side of the road will never make anything more reliable.
Arguing people being stupid as a reason to keep an inferior technology is ignorant. Carbs are anything but simple. If you want simplicity you'd have an EFI system. Reliability is judged in points of failure and let's face it - EFI has very few points of failure when sat up against a carb. Of course they are both compromised by varnish but arguing varnish as a reason to not move to a superior technology would also be foolish.
100% of problems are caused by the thing between the handlebars and the exhaust pipe. Arguing any of them as a reason to stay with a inferior technology is foolish. Economics, price, maintainability, and power are all reasons to go to EFI. If carbs were so awesome why would all the new model bikes have EFI? It's both emissions friendly and race friendly. If you have a laptop and a power commander you can work on an EFI bike just as easily as a carb bike. There really is no argument here.
CArbs best .
FI is too complicated for noobs on a budget , on older bikes, new to wrenching ...
The gs carbs are simple simple - much preferred over ECU/FI, fuel pump, pump relay, fuses, associated wiring, all stuff that can go wrong somewhere sometime especially on an older bike.
And make sure u have a laptop when that FI bike strands u on the side of the highway so u can plug in and do a little computerized troubleshooting. Because the ECU wants to tell u exactly how to fix , what to fix ... or how to kludge temporary to at least make it to the next town... ?
OTH, new bike, need for speed, need to dominate street gran prix , fat wallet - yes to FI.
Has anybody else noticed that quite a few posts seem to be turning into arguments here lately?? Can't we all just get along :laugh:
-Jessie
if u want to get realy technical an ecu has multiple failure points within itself, multiple circits that can die, and most advanced efi set ups have a wide array of sensors that can play up and cause all sorts of hell, then on top of it, the codes the ecu throw can be completly useless, this is just experience with cars yet id assume bikes would be the same, were as carbys, once you have an understanding of how it works, then u pull them apart you can see how simple they are.
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 30, 2011, 11:27:45 PM
Arguing people being stupid as a reason to keep an inferior technology is ignorant. Carbs are anything but simple. If you want simplicity you'd have an EFI system. Reliability is judged in points of failure and let's face it - EFI has very few points of failure when sat up against a carb. Of course they are both compromised by varnish but arguing varnish as a reason to not move to a superior technology would also be foolish.
100% of problems are caused by the thing between the handlebars and the exhaust pipe. Arguing any of them as a reason to stay with a inferior technology is foolish. Economics, price, maintainability, and power are all reasons to go to EFI. If carbs were so awesome why would all the new model bikes have EFI? It's both emissions friendly and race friendly. If you have a laptop and a power commander you can work on an EFI bike just as easily as a carb bike. There really is no argument here.
Your first misconception is assuming that I am
arguing (three times), or
ignorant (once), neither am I
foolish (twice) or a fool, this is a discussion forum and we are
discussing bikes/carbs/EFI. You obviously have never had a group ride come to a grinding halt from a fuel pump failure? After 45 years of dealing with carbs on bikes..I have yet to be stranded on the side of the road by one.
The problem i see with EFI is that the components are often proprietary (or perhaps always).
(i realize there are some non-oem components shared between OEM's. [but i bet those are in bed with the OEM's])
Carburetors were rarely made by the vehicle manufacturer.
I think carb manufacturers really missed the money-train by not standardizing and running the EFI game.
And... there is no excuse for us not being able to plug in our droid, or apple, phones to get/set/tune anything we could want to. Or some $50 handheld bike specific gizmo at the least.
The only reason we can't is because of greed (oh, and consumers as usual, buying whatever garbage is available).
If i could buy a gs500 with a mikuni EFI system, or a mikuni carb system... i would choose EFI for more money.
Carb vs EFI is currently more of a 'home grown' vs 'big corporate' discussion, imo.
I would tend towards the home grown, tried and true system (and beat myself up when i can't fix it) than buy into a large corporations proprietary system (but in the end i would still go efi if given the choice... because most everything works well when it is brand new).
Quote from: bigfatcat on October 01, 2011, 04:49:47 AM
And make sure u have a laptop when that FI bike strands u on the side of the highway so u can plug in and do a little computerized troubleshooting. Because the ECU wants to tell u exactly how to fix , what to fix ... or how to kludge temporary to at least make it to the next town... ?
yeah because everyone carries around a spare set of carbs and can swap them easily in the middle of a ride right?
Quote from: gs500e on October 01, 2011, 07:39:12 AM
The problem i see with EFI is that the components are often proprietary (or perhaps always).
(i realize there are some non-oem components shared between OEM's. [but i bet those are in bed with the OEM's])
Carburetors were rarely made by the vehicle manufacturer.
I think carb manufacturers really missed the money-train by not standardizing and running the EFI game.
And... there is no excuse for us not being able to plug in our droid, or apple, phones to get/set/tune anything we could want to. Or some $50 handheld bike specific gizmo at the least.
The only reason we can't is because of greed (oh, and consumers as usual, buying whatever garbage is available).
If i could buy a gs500 with a mikuni EFI system, or a mikuni carb system... i would choose EFI for more money.
Carb vs EFI is currently more of a 'home grown' vs 'big corporate' discussion, imo.
I would tend towards the home grown, tried and true system (and beat myself up when i can't fix it) than buy into a large corporations proprietary system (but in the end i would still go efi if given the choice... because most everything works well when it is brand new).
The bulk of it isn't proprietary. They're pretty much standardized and communicate using the same protocol. It's hardly a corporate vs. grassroots thing. It's a old-imperfect-technology vs. accurate-new-powerful technology argument.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on October 01, 2011, 07:15:41 AM
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on September 30, 2011, 11:27:45 PM
Arguing people being stupid as a reason to keep an inferior technology is ignorant. Carbs are anything but simple. If you want simplicity you'd have an EFI system. Reliability is judged in points of failure and let's face it - EFI has very few points of failure when sat up against a carb. Of course they are both compromised by varnish but arguing varnish as a reason to not move to a superior technology would also be foolish.
100% of problems are caused by the thing between the handlebars and the exhaust pipe. Arguing any of them as a reason to stay with a inferior technology is foolish. Economics, price, maintainability, and power are all reasons to go to EFI. If carbs were so awesome why would all the new model bikes have EFI? It's both emissions friendly and race friendly. If you have a laptop and a power commander you can work on an EFI bike just as easily as a carb bike. There really is no argument here.
Your first misconception is assuming that I am arguing (three times), or ignorant (once), neither am I foolish (twice) or a fool, this is a discussion forum and we are discussing bikes/carbs/EFI. You obviously have never had a group ride come to a grinding halt from a fuel pump failure? After 45 years of dealing with carbs on bikes..I have yet to be stranded on the side of the road by one.
Never answered my question. What's the reason all new bikes have EFI? The wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection) makes it pretty clear. Carbs are an amazing piece of technology. What people did to get things done before computers is mind blowing to me. I enjoy taking apart a carb more than I do EFI (I've only ever done work on some EFI in cars).
I group ride with EFI bikes all the time and before I ended up cleaning out my carbs and replacing all my lines I was usually the reason we never were on time to our destination. My bike would sputter and die when it tried to hold an idle. Since then it hasn't done that. The point is here everyone has anecdotes. You and I can't look at anecdotes as the answer.
I am actually Pro EFI, I also understand the preventive measures one has to take with a carburated bike to keep them running. I have 6 bikes in my garage right now and all are 100% turn key. Some are EFI, some have carbs, the EFI bikes are no more reliable than the ones with carbs.
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/ninja04.jpg)
i like efi to, not from a reliablilty point of view as i never seem to have problems with carbys on cars yet run into so many stupid headache issues with injected cars for the number of sensors these cars use, yet from a easy of tuning and retaining fuel ecconomy point of view, i can add extra fuel in exactly where it is needed for whatever setup i need with an aftermarket ecu, with a set of carbs i can make it richer or leaner over a much wider rpm range, so not the ideal setup for a performance engine, expecial when you start talking efi
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on October 01, 2011, 01:39:57 PM
I have 6 bikes in my garage right now and all are 100% turn key.
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/ninja04.jpg)
holy cow :icon_eek:
Quote from: rayshon on October 02, 2011, 04:53:10 PMholy cow :icon_eek:
Last month before I sold the GS the number was 7, like in the photo...can you find all 7? :thumb:
Is that the new Ninja 250 in the foreground? If so, how do you like it? I've been thinking of replacing my trusty Nighthawk 250 with something a little more modern (disc brakes would be a nice change ;) ). I had been looking at the TU250 until Suzuki jacked the MSRP $1,000. I had also considered the new CBR250, both of which are fuel injected.
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on October 02, 2011, 05:08:11 PM
Is that the new Ninja 250 in the foreground? If so, how do you like it? I've been thinking of replacing my trusty Nighthawk 250 with something a little more modern (disc brakes would be a nice change ;) ). I had been looking at the TU250 until Suzuki jacked the MSRP $1,000. I had also considered the new CBR250, both of which are fuel injected.
-Jessie
It's allot of fun, more nimble than the GS, has the same lean out of the box configuration the GS has. Just like the GS, I left it stock and went up a size on the pilots and the mains. Mileage is actually worse than the GS, 55 Mpg open road. Went up one tooth on the counter shaft sprocket (just like I did on the GS) . You need to wind it up a bit more, but that should be expected with a 13,000 Rpm redline. It tops out just over 90 Mph (100 indicated) It's my new Lightweight Solo Touring bike :thumb:
Bottom Line...I have no regret's, I would do it again, the Ninja stayed and the GS500F left.
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/ninja07.jpg)
My GS500F in Lightweight Solo Touring configuration
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/mcamp03.jpg)
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on October 02, 2011, 04:56:40 PM
Quote from: rayshon on October 02, 2011, 04:53:10 PMholy cow :icon_eek:
Last month before I sold the GS the number was 7, like in the photo...can you find all 7? :thumb:
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/ninja04.jpg)
1 - Front left - GSX650
2 - Front - Ninja
3 - far right, GS500F
4 - front scooter
5 - rear scooter facing back, next to GS500
6 - just above front scooter's headlight, a Blue Vstrom
7 - above 650's panniers and facing back, can't quite make it out but there is a bike there too, looks like another scooter.
How'd I go?
Michael
Quote from: mister on October 02, 2011, 05:33:26 PM
1 - Front left - GSX650
2 - Front - Ninja
3 - far right, GS500F
4 - front scooter
5 - rear scooter facing back, next to GS500
6 - just above front scooter's headlight, a Blue Vstrom
7 - above 650's panniers and facing back, can't quite make it out but there is a bike there too, looks like another scooter.
How'd I go?
Michael
100%!!!! :cheers:
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/ninja047.jpg)