I'd like to be mentally prepared for avoiding a highside.
I've noticed that in all the videos of them I've seen recently,
eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlMbFlPzS24
the following things happen:
1. they're in big lean
2. the rear starts slipping
3. they attempt to correct by turning handlebars into the slide
okay, so far so good, but then
4. the rear wheel connects
5. the sudden power uprights the bike out of the lean, which
6. tosses the rider off the side
For people who've had experienced recovering this situation, can you comment if it's best at point #3, to
a) pull in clutch
b) go off throttle
c) a & b
d) other ?
I'm thinking "c", because if you're at high revs... even if you let off the throttle, it's still going to kick with some power when the wheel connects?
I think its probably best to avoid points 1 & 2 wherever possible in the first place!
I might be wrong but the guy in the video seemed to roll on the throttle mid corner...not sure. ...watch his hand in the slo-mo.
TBH, not sure you would have time to correct but rolling off the throttle as gently as possible has to help?
EDIT...and sorry Phil I have never experienced this.
i don't know phil-
but i'll bet you need to high-side a few times, maybe 12, before you have the almost instinctive reflex to do the right thing before it's too late. watch just how FAST it goes from a power slide/brake slide/gravel to a high side. it's fractions of a second. once the weight begins to shift, it's over for all of us except the elite.
post up if you find a noteworthy recommendation / video tutorial, ok ?
safer every day
High sides usually happen when a rider induced input, such as body position, throttle, or rear brake is over-applied and then abruptly released. The tire hooks up when the rider gets off the gas, or releases the brake, and then violently throws the rider off.
If the rear tire starts sliding, the best course of action is to check the throttle or brake application and decrease lean angle - meaning that you don't add more force, you simply hold whatever force you are applying, and then counter steer to slowly pick the bike up.
Your goal is to make the tire hook up slowly. All of your proposed solutions would cause a high-side.
The secret is DON'T DO ANYTHING. Preferably you would avoid the situation altogether and yes kg1709 the dude did roll on the throttle to much. see this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkalHQ6eRVw&feature=relmfu
This may sound stupid to some but when the rear slips out bad, let it go. If its a minor slip you can save it by NOT reacting to it ( or like burning 1 says very minor input changes), but if its bad lay it down smoothly as possible and let her slide. You are protected from lowside with proper riding gear but nothing will save your body from a high side. Let you and the bike slide and be mad at yourself for scratching up your bike later v.s. being in a hospital.
I'm referring to street riding here, i have no track experience on the subject so it may be different when racing
Quote from: burning1 on February 20, 2012, 12:37:17 PM
High sides usually happen when a rider induced input, such as body position, throttle, or rear brake is over-applied and then abruptly released. The tire hooks up when the rider gets off the gas, or releases the brake, and then violently throws the rider off.
If the rear tire starts sliding, the best course of action is to check the throttle or brake application and decrease lean angle - meaning that you don't add more force, you simply hold whatever force you are applying, and then counter steer to slowly pick the bike up.
Your goal is to make the tire hook up slowly. All of your proposed solutions would cause a high-side.
weelll.. i can think of a situation where what you said is true.. and i can think of situation where what you said should be false.
True: rider has applied rear brake in corner. rear slides. best to stay on brake and not change anything until recovery.
False: rider hasnt changed throttle, brake, or anything else. rear wheel has just happened to lose traction and start sliding
(due to gravel, or extreme lean hitting peg, and causing rear wheel to briefly lift out of contact with ground, and slide).
In this case, if rider does not change inputs but still tries to straighten bike... rear wheel is going to connect under normal power, and throw him off.
In that situation, surely it is better to either pull in clutch (possibly all the way), or reduce/cut power?
I came across youtube video of racer having lowside on wet. commentator said something like,
"he cut power after he lost traction, but he was at the limit, so nothing he could do about it"
remember the MSF, rear tire slides, DO NOTHING, I would even think unless you where super lucky the best thing to do with a rear tire sliding in a corner would be to punch it or hit the rear brake hard just to force a low side...
That rider is not leaning into the corner at all, it almost looks like he is leaning to the outside of the bike.
On a corner like that you need to be leaning way to the inside. Not necessarily dragging a knee, but getting your weight inside will decrease the lean angle for the same road speed. This will help prevent the high side situation from happening in the first place.
To avoid a highside, short of not putting yourself in such a situation, I think the appropriate course of action is to either follow burning1's suggestions, or do nothing and ride it out. I used to force my rear end to step out while riding on grass when I had my DT100K, and I found that trying to correct the situation by cutting power or applying brake would result in a fall, but by just staying calm and letting the bike do what it wants, I'd stay upright.
Just found this: http://youtu.be/tNcZyDSM6GI (http://youtu.be/tNcZyDSM6GI)
Theres one supermotard guy that pulls the clutch to save it...
As to my own experience, while back tyre is sliding, the best possible solution is to keep the throttle opened as it is (huge amount of mental force needed :icon_mrgreen:), and countersteer (car drift term is opposite lock) the bike till both wheels are in-line and bike straightened up, presuming (or rather hoping) there's no oncoming traffic.
Everything else is counter productive.
When the rear starts to slid away, you instinctively (self-preservation instinct) roll off the throttle, at that point the rear grips again, but since it's out of front wheel center line, the bike's gyroscopic effect tends to level that up, and your own body weight (and it's inertial laziness to move) is your worst enemy, you're getting airborne.
Like I said, it takes years of practice to force yourself NOT to throttle off, but to keep it open just like it was when the slide started.
Some people say it's even better to open it more, but that way the rear tyre just goes even further out of line, that way you'll pretty soon ran out of road space for countersteer (opposite lock) the bike straight.
I have never experienced the full "pleasure" of highside body slam (and I hope I never will), but I've had my fair share of tank slappers and icy sweat moments, just because I rolled the throttle off while the rear was sliding.
So, if you want to be prepared, there's no other way but to practice. The only problem is, if you do it wrong, you'll wreck your bike (and your body). :icon_mrgreen:
Find some deserted road, or a empty parking lot with a corner that suits you best (left or right), preferably with low(er) surface grip level, initiate the powerslide (easy at first, to develop a feeling when the tyre will let go) be prepared for it, and force yourself not to roll off the throttle.
After that, it's only practice, practice, practice.
I suggest a second gear for practicing. 1st has too much momentum, and the 3rd too little, presuming you'll practice at reasonably low speed.
And yes... this is all fine when you WANT to powerslide in the first place, but when you're riding, and the rear starts to slide unintentionally, and you're thinking of something completely different... that's the moment it get's hairy.
Quote from: Phil B on February 20, 2012, 08:56:03 AM
I'd like to be mentally prepared for avoiding a highside.
Won't hurt to give it some thought, might even help, but there's nothing like on the job training to make something a usable part of your "muscle memory", a part of your subconscience reactions. If it happens fast your reactions have to be equally fast, faster than you can consciencly think it thru at the moment.
When I started riding I rode my 4 old Hondas like an old man should ride (started at age 52) and I used mostly Dunlop K491 touring tires on them for about a quarter million miles without any traction issues and with great tire life. When I bought my first GS at age 66 I replaced my oem tires with BT45s and then went to the Dunlop touring tires for milage and quickly discovered my sporty GS wanted to go around corners much faster than those Dunlops did. I learned to catch a sliding GS quickly and frequently with a flick of the wrists without changing pace and without loosing it in a corner and it turned out to be a good experience putting 20k miles on them.
In all my years of GS riding year around I've hit a few ice patches straight on and just keep it straight without changing pace and glided across without mishaps. I hit black ice only once in all those years and it was in a left hand corner at about 40 mph and I was in the left ice free tire lane and hit the edge of the black ice in the center of the road and just held it steady in a 2 wheel slide across the ice strip and caught it in the ice free right tire lane with incident but I did have some good radials on then. Best to keep a steady pace when the bike starts to do funny stuff. :icon_lol:
If you want to countersteer to straighten up, didn't the guy in the vid posted by OP turn the handlebars in the wrong direction, so as to increase lean angle and make the highside even worse? You'd want to push on the outside handlebar to straighten up the bike, but he pulled the outside handlebar in.
I say, the best way to avoid a highside is to keep your GS500 and don't get a 600cc+ bike. It's very hard to highside on a GS500 :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: remn on February 20, 2012, 03:21:32 PM
If you want to countersteer to straighten up, didn't the guy in the vid posted by OP turn the handlebars in the wrong direction, so as to increase lean angle and make the highside even worse? You'd want to push on the outside handlebar to straighten up the bike, but he pulled the outside handlebar in.
The rider in the vid did it correctly:, albeit not with perfect timing: he turned "right", when it started happening.
See the master do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIHfg3KJEY :)
Watching the crash in slow motion, and then manually slowing it down even MORE, by "feathering" the pause button ;) it looks/sounds like that guy had the engine kick too hard, so it came around too quickly. So what started as "turn into the slide" became "turn too far the wrong way".
He wasnt leaned enough with the bike to start with too.
Initially, he wasnt leaning with the bike enough; half of his body was leaning a bit against it, seems like.
(I think he was suffering from knee dragger wannabe syndrome: he was hanging his hip/knee off, but his TORSO was to the right. Bad Idea! :) )
So then, the bike suddenly wanted to upright.. and it did. but he didnt. initially.
Odd thing is, that then seemed to create a bit of a whip effect. or something. In the slowmo, the bike initially straightened.. nothing much happened to him... but a split-second later, THEN he went flying forward. almost looks like he "jumped" forward.
Weird stuff.
Note that in the video i just linked here, Rossi keeps it leaned, the whole time in the turn.
But the original crasher in my first video, did not.
Quote from: remn on February 20, 2012, 03:21:32 PM
I say, the best way to avoid a highside is to keep your GS500 and don't get a 600cc+ bike. It's very hard to highside on a GS500 :icon_mrgreen:
heh.. thumbs up for that :) but I think i could somehow manage to do it if I'm not careful ...
No one has really delved into it here yet so I will. While watching twist of the wrist 2, the technique was to slowly roll off the throttle and NOT chop it. All the while let the bike correct itself, I know this has been said but combined with the roll off technique can correct a highside.
Quote from: Pontiackid73 on February 20, 2012, 12:45:18 PM
This may sound stupid to some but when the rear slips out bad, let it go. If its a minor slip you can save it by NOT reacting to it ( or like burning 1 says very minor input changes), but if its bad lay it down smoothly as possible and let her slide. You are protected from lowside with proper riding gear but nothing will save your body from a high side. Let you and the bike slide and be mad at yourself for scratching up your bike later v.s. being in a hospital.
^
that right there, only time i ever had a rear tire slide that is exactly what i did. gently lay it down and slide to a stop. got a small rip in my jacket sleeve and a couple scrapes on the bike (glad it was just a beater bike lol) got up a little shaken but unharmed, picked up my bike and rode home. always better to low side it fix some scratches than to overcompensate and high side it and totally ruin your bike and yourself
If you watch the Rossi video again, you'll noticed that the bike even gave him a little "buck". Of course, Rossi has experience and practice enough that it didnt phase him.
The compilation of the "close calls" on Mullholand does three things for me:
1. Make me wish i lived in California
2. Makes me wonder what is on the road there that causes all those guys to "almost" lose it
3 reinforce my love of great gear.
I cant answer the high side question, exactly, but i CAN say that not diving into that kind of riding off the bat is key. It also REALLY makes me want to do some track instruction.
I'm by no means super experienced or a racer, nor have I been involved in a lot of slips or accidents, but as I see it, the same applies for these things:
1. Regaining control of a sliding car
2. Regaining control of a sliding bike
3. Backing up a trailer
that is, large corrections and inputs disproportionate to the magnitude of the initial problem will ALWAYS end you in:
The trees, road etc
Flipping over your bike
Running your boat/trailer into shyte.
I have experience with 1&2
I drive a lot on dirt and fast, for funsies, albeit safely. I have become good at staying cool and maintaining control of my car. (Though independent susp >>> torsion bars/linked susp - - Cant say it doesn't help)
And I did bust out the lights on my trailer learning to back it up down the ramp as a kid.
My plan, as it were, is to get a beater bike, preferably small displacement, and go out to the dirt forrest roads with some friends during low traffic times, and practice away at sliding, turning and maintaining control. Starting slow of course.
Any more experienced opinions suggest against it? Seriously, Id love some constructive crit.
I think burning1 has said something like: Only track time will make you a better racer. I think that the same applies for this scenario.
Quote from: Phil B on February 20, 2012, 08:56:03 AM
I'd like to be mentally prepared for avoiding a highside.
I'd like to avoid them entirely. Try riding The Pace for a change.
#2 is an awesome thing to do.........on a dirt bike! :woohoo:
EDIT: If you want to learn "highside avoidance" go buy yourself a dirt bike, all street riders should start there :whisper:
Quote from: ninjeff on February 20, 2012, 05:41:37 PM
The compilation of the "close calls" on Mullholand does three things for me:
1. Make me wish i lived in California
2. Makes me wonder what is on the road there that causes all those guys to "almost" lose it
well, #2 is easy. What's there, is a professional photographer :D
http://rockstorephotos.com/about.htm
The guy is there basically all day every weekend.
Why take dumb risks to impress "a hot chick", when you can take dumb risks to impress ALL the chicks at once? :cheers:
There's also a "live audience" of varying size. Some people just chill there watching riders impress the camera. Some riders (a lot of riders, actually) come to watch what other riders do. etc,etc.
It's almost like a free track day. Except shorter, and ideally slower. A little less safety, a whole lot less price.
So that's why you see a lot of youtube videos of that spot: it's the spot where everyone comes to. There's around 20 turns on the snake, but that's the big well-known one.
The bizzarre thing is.. that turn is a somewhat easy left turn, as left turns go.
Yes, it's tight, but it's also banked a little in the good direction, AND it's uphilll, so you get free safe braking if you need it.
And most people are only going 40. You've gotta either be complete noob, or way over speeding, to wipe out there.
(you can see the noob factor by the people crashing who are taking it way wide. whats up with that...)
[I had *my* off, on a different, non-banked turn :(, for what it's worth ]
Most youtube vids of it are from the inside rise, since that's the "safe" place to stand :)
But that doesnt show you what the road is really like.
Here's a different perspective on that turn, mostly from the actual road level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV5KDHItiDk
FYI, The photographer actually encourages folks to go slower, not insane. From his web site:
"Riders and drivers in search of an epic image should also keep in mind that speed does not lead to better pictures. In fact, just the opposite is the case"
PS: very very late retroactive edit:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7176/6773182914_ccc753972d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/capfacsurf/6773182914/)
_DSC1238 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/capfacsurf/6773182914/) by RockStorePhotos.com (http://www.flickr.com/people/capfacsurf/), on Flickr
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on February 20, 2012, 07:37:57 PM
#2 is an awesome thing to do.........on a dirt bike! :woohoo:
EDIT: If you want to learn "highside avoidance" go buy yourself a dirt bike, all street riders should start there :whisper:
+1
All my best crash avoidance techniques on the street are derived from my years of dirt riding. When you are used to the feel of sliding on a motorcycle in the dirt it doesn't freak you out when it happens on the street.
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 20, 2012, 08:10:01 PM
+1
All my best crash avoidance techniques on the street are derived from my years of dirt riding. When you are used to the feel of sliding on a motorcycle in the dirt it doesn't freak you out when it happens on the street.
-Jessie
Agreed, see...no highside!
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/XR02.jpg)
Quote from: Phil B on February 20, 2012, 08:07:33 PM
Quote from: ninjeff on February 20, 2012, 05:41:37 PM
The compilation of the "close calls" on Mullholand does three things for me:
1. Make me wish i lived in California
2. Makes me wonder what is on the road there that causes all those guys to "almost" lose it
well, #2 is easy. What's there, is a professional photographer :D
http://rockstorephotos.com/about.htm
The guy is there basically all day every weekend.
Why take dumb risks to impress "a hot chick", when you can take dumb risks to impress ALL the chicks at once? :cheers:
There's also a "live audience" of varying size. Some people just chill there watching riders impress the camera. Some riders (a lot of riders, actually) come to watch what other riders do. etc,etc.
It's almost like a free track day. Except shorter, and ideally slower. A little less safety, a whole lot less price.
So that's why you see a lot of youtube videos of that spot: it's the spot where everyone comes to. There's around 20 turns on the snake, but that's the big well-known one.
The bizzarre thing is.. that turn is a somewhat easy left turn, as left turns go.
Yes, it's tight, but it's also banked a little in the good direction, AND it's uphilll, so you get free safe braking if you need it.
And most people are only going 40. You've gotta either be complete noob, or way over speeding, to wipe out there.
(you can see the noob factor by the people crashing who are taking it way wide. whats up with that...)
[I had *my* off, on a different, non-banked turn :(, for what it's worth ]
Most youtube vids of it are from the inside rise, since that's the "safe" place to stand :)
But that doesnt show you what the road is really like.
Here's a different perspective on that turn, mostly from the actual road level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV5KDHItiDk
FYI, The photographer actually encourages folks to go slower, not insane. From his web site:
"Riders and drivers in search of an epic image should also keep in mind that speed does not lead to better pictures. In fact, just the opposite is the case"
Well, that addresses my number 2 question, but does nothing to help #1!!!!!
Seriously, that second video made it look like a slice of heaven. Maybe its living in the god forsaken midwest, where the entire road system is laid out like a grid-square, or maybe its because the video was edited to make it look like its just rider after rider all day long. I dont know.
But damnit, that road just got added to "the list". Hell, i'd just grab a burger and fries and go sit for an afternoon and enjoy the sites and sounds.
I've never high sided, but a high side seems to be equivalent to over-correcting in a car. Speaking as a guy that occasionally drifts his Miata on an empty road, I can tell you that in a car it is better to relax the turn angle (don't quite point them straight and don't go opposite lock) and lift just slightly. Whatever you do, don't go opposite lock, and suddenly lift.
Quote from: ninjeff on February 20, 2012, 10:41:42 PM
Well, that addresses my number 2 question, but does nothing to help #1!!!!!
Seriously, that second video made it look like a slice of heaven. Maybe its living in the god forsaken midwest, where the entire road system is laid out like a grid-square, or maybe its because the video was edited to make it look like its just rider after rider all day long. I dont know.
But damnit, that road just got added to "the list". Hell, i'd just grab a burger and fries and go sit for an afternoon and enjoy the sites and sounds.
heh. well, most of (southern) california, or at least where the majority of people live, is flat also. But the hilly bits are usually 1 hr's drive away at most.
For me too, unfortunately. but at least I can get there!
It's a good thing it isnt really riders going by every second. Otherwise, when would you get YOUR turn? ;)
There's usually a few mins between each wave. Well, depending on time of day. 11am-1pm on weekends I think is peak time.
I cant believe there's no youtube of a gs500 mounted cam, riding the snake!
Someone lend me a cam plus mount, and I'll go film it for us! ;-)
meanwhile, if you want to see what the REST of the 2 mile thing looks like, here's a reasonable substitute:
an sv650 trailing a cowardly R6 up the snake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMHeZOqginA
(note: HD available there)
"That turn" is the last one, around 2:27.
(I think the place I low-sided back in august, was the big open-side left turn right arond 2:02)
On the one hand, "no-rail" turns, usually means "dont worry about it".
But after I'd just come out of the double super-tight railed turns, I probably saw "Big Turn No Rails!!" and freaked.
Quote from: Phil B on February 20, 2012, 12:47:49 PM
False: rider hasnt changed throttle, brake, or anything else. rear wheel has just happened to lose traction and start sliding
(due to gravel, or extreme lean hitting peg, and causing rear wheel to briefly lift out of contact with ground, and slide).
In this case, if rider does not change inputs but still tries to straighten bike... rear wheel is going to connect under normal power, and throw him off.
In that situation, surely it is better to either pull in clutch (possibly all the way), or reduce/cut power?
I've had the rear tire step out due to gravel and oil. When that happens, the best I could hope for is that the wheel re-connected before the bike got too out of shape. You'll notice in the video, that most of the riders who saved it did so by chopping the throttle or clutching before the bike got too out of shape. It still bucked them, but not hard enough to high-side. You'll also note that a lot of the riders stand up, so that the bike isn't throwing around the majority of their weight. This seems to be a semi-instinctual reaction.
I can't advise on the best course of action when traction conditions force the rear tire out under neutral input conditions. I find that generally bikes behave better when you're either on the gas or on the brakes.
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on February 20, 2012, 07:37:57 PM
#2 is an awesome thing to do.........on a dirt bike! :woohoo:
EDIT: If you want to learn "highside avoidance" go buy yourself a dirt bike, all street riders should start there :whisper:
It's not the first time I hear this!! And neither from currently dirt riders!
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 20, 2012, 08:10:01 PM
Quote from: Suzuki Stevo on February 20, 2012, 07:37:57 PM
#2 is an awesome thing to do.........on a dirt bike! :woohoo:
EDIT: If you want to learn "highside avoidance" go buy yourself a dirt bike, all street riders should start there :whisper:
+1
All my best crash avoidance techniques on the street are derived from my years of dirt riding. When you are used to the feel of sliding on a motorcycle in the dirt it doesn't freak you out when it happens on the street.
-Jessie
+1 its so much more fun to laugh on the way down, watch the bike do a dough nut automagically, and get up un hurt (in the dirt).
On the street, I've slid a few times because of traction problems, never because of being in a fast corner and trying to drag a knee. Recovering is a sweet drop of heaven wrapped up in adrenalin and thankfulness.
Quote from: Juan1 on February 20, 2012, 11:13:28 PM
I've never high sided, but a high side seems to be equivalent to over-correcting in a car. Speaking as a guy that occasionally drifts his Miata on an empty road, I can tell you that in a car it is better to relax the turn angle (don't quite point them straight and don't go opposite lock) and lift just slightly. Whatever you do, don't go opposite lock, and suddenly lift.
I loved my Miata for that kind of stuff; very balanced. That said, a bike is more like a rear-engined Porsche, which will go into off-throttle oversteer in a heartbeat. With all the weight in the back, you have to stay *on* the gas around corners (or when it starts oversteering) to keep any semblance of control. The Miata, on the other hand, will quickly correct it's trajectory if you go off-throttle (it straightens out and behaves, in other words.)
Going off the gas is a survival reaction that most people have. This is why people that drive Miatas like them, and why so many Porsches get crashed.
As for the bike; all a highside is is the bike trying to go straight from an oversteer condition against the best efforts of the rider :)
+1 on riding dirt bikes to learn on-throttle oversteer... it's the right bike and venue.
I hate this topic. :technical: But it is one of my most pondered riding topics. I steered into a gravel slide and it kicked me in to the air and I managed to land back on the bike and regain control. That said I am 100% sure that I responded to the situation incorrectly. It kills me. Almost.
Quote from: burning1 on February 21, 2012, 12:23:35 AM
I've had the rear tire step out due to gravel and oil. When that happens, the best I could hope for is that the wheel re-connected before the bike got too out of shape. You'll notice in the video, that most of the riders who saved it did so by chopping the throttle or clutching before the bike got too out of shape. It still bucked them, but not hard enough to high-side. You'll also note that a lot of the riders stand up, so that the bike isn't throwing around the majority of their weight. This seems to be a semi-instinctual reaction.
...
As Keith Code says, paraphrasing: When you're on a bike, "instinct" is usually wrong :)
I'm guessing standing up is dirt bike technique. Methinks on street, this is a bad idea, but you can probably get away with it on dirt bike riding, because traction is worse, so you are much much less likely to highside.
I'm not sure which video you are referring to.. but in the Rossi one I gave
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIHfg3KJEY ) he most definitely does not stand up during the slide.
(he stands up AFTER, but that's more to show off to the crowd ;) )
(hmm.. maybe in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlMbFlPzS24 that guy really DID "jump" off the bike in a manner of speaking... perhaps he tried to stand up, but his rising momentum got him unseated too much? )
It flung him. Standing up might have kept him from flying as far? Maybe it made the bike hit hit nuts harder? I dunno.
Whole bunch of vids of the same spot with guys that recover...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcZyDSM6GI
Quote from: Phil B on February 21, 2012, 09:33:19 AM
Quote from: burning1 on February 21, 2012, 12:23:35 AM
I've had the rear tire step out due to gravel and oil. When that happens, the best I could hope for is that the wheel re-connected before the bike got too out of shape. You'll notice in the video, that most of the riders who saved it did so by chopping the throttle or clutching before the bike got too out of shape. It still bucked them, but not hard enough to high-side. You'll also note that a lot of the riders stand up, so that the bike isn't throwing around the majority of their weight. This seems to be a semi-instinctual reaction.
...
As Keith Code says, paraphrasing: When you're on a bike, "instinct" is usually wrong :)
I'm guessing standing up is dirt bike technique. Methinks on street, this is a bad idea, but you can probably get away with it on dirt bike riding, because traction is worse, so you are much much less likely to highside.
I'm not sure which video you are referring to.. but in the Rossi one I gave
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIHfg3KJEY ) he most definitely does not stand up during the slide.
(he stands up AFTER, but that's more to show off to the crowd ;) )
(hmm.. maybe in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlMbFlPzS24 that guy really DID "jump" off the bike in a manner of speaking... perhaps he tried to stand up, but his rising momentum got him unseated too much? )
Dirtbikes teach you to weight the front wheel when the back starts to slide which may entail standing on the pegs to get your weight where it needs to be. Dirtbike 101, put the front tire where you want to go and the rear will eventually follow ;)
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 21, 2012, 12:05:21 PM
Dirtbikes teach you to weight the front wheel when the back starts to slide which may entail standing on the pegs to get your weight where it needs to be. Dirtbike 101, put the front tire where you want to go and the rear will eventually follow ;)
Mmm.... I'm guessing this is in the "dirt bike riding is similar, yet different" category.
Dirt bike riding, you basically Want and Expect the rear wheel to be sliding around a lot. Street, you dont.
I'm thinking keeping your rear on the seat, makes the wheel slide less. (doest STOP it, but lessens it).
Which is why, again, a lot of dirt bike riding is done standing on the pegs..and street riding, is the opposite.
In that "amateur night" video posted, there were a lot of people who stood.. and IMO they did it badly. straight straight legs. Then there were just one or two who stood slightly, so their legs were shock absorbers. and there were one or two that did not stand at all.
Me, I'm going to aim for the "not stand" technique.
well, i think the "slight stand" in this instance is a good thing as it allows the bike to wriggle a little bit underneath the rider and not buck him (or her!) off.
This is not to say that you should stand up and salute, but simply get the butt off the seat a bit to keep the bike from tossing you off.
+1 with learning dirt - but - hard to highside cause the rear never regrips so violently.
1 - avoid highside in first place by doing pace riding
2 - there is no technique to learn in a day or by reading that will benefit because everything happens too fast to consciously control.
3 - on dirt your weight is on the pegs, on the street it is on the seat. In this way the bike can dance beneath you and you are still riding.
4 - closest I came to hs was when I was making a turn and a truck had started to come out of side street. This forced me to take the corner late and the back started sliding out in the debris zone. Before I knew what was going on my inside foot had come off the peg as if I was riding a dirt bike. My years of dirt bike riding has taught my sub con what to do and it did it. Mind you, this was low speed.
Quote from: Phil B on February 21, 2012, 12:38:36 PM
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 21, 2012, 12:05:21 PM
Dirtbikes teach you to weight the front wheel when the back starts to slide which may entail standing on the pegs to get your weight where it needs to be. Dirtbike 101, put the front tire where you want to go and the rear will eventually follow ;)
Mmm.... I'm guessing this is in the "dirt bike riding is similar, yet different" category.
Dirt bike riding, you basically Want and Expect the rear wheel to be sliding around a lot. Street, you dont.
I'm thinking keeping your rear on the seat, makes the wheel slide less. (doest STOP it, but lessens it).
Which is why, again, a lot of dirt bike riding is done standing on the pegs..and street riding, is the opposite.
Maybe it translates better to stunting :laugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQfFk3OiTTE
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 21, 2012, 08:13:46 PM
Maybe it translates better to stunting :laugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQfFk3OiTTE
-Jessie
I cant help noting, that mr. stunt guy there... did NOT "have his weight on the pegs" to control HIS "rear wheel slides". it was all o the seat (and handlebars) ;)
Quote from: Phil B on February 21, 2012, 10:10:51 PM
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 21, 2012, 08:13:46 PM
Maybe it translates better to stunting :laugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQfFk3OiTTE
-Jessie
I cant help noting, that mr. stunt guy there... did NOT "have his weight on the pegs" to control HIS "rear wheel slides". it was all o the seat (and handlebars) ;)
I was referring to weighting the front wheel and pointing it where you want to go. Can't weight the front wheel much better than sitting on the gas tank :laugh: On dirtbikes you stand on the pegs and lean forward against the tank to shift your weight.
-Jessie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 22, 2012, 04:56:45 AM
Quote from: Phil B on February 21, 2012, 10:10:51 PM
I cant help noting, that mr. stunt guy there... did NOT "have his weight on the pegs" to control HIS "rear wheel slides". it was all o the seat (and handlebars) ;)
I was referring to weighting the front wheel and pointing it where you want to go. Can't weight the front wheel much better than sitting on the gas tank :laugh: On dirtbikes you stand on the pegs and lean forward against the tank to shift your weight.
Aha... so I guess that implies, if a person is "hanging off", or otherwise laying on the tank, they're probably good to go :)