highside avoidance technique

[Phil B]

The compilation of the "close calls"  on Mullholand does three things for me:
1. Make me wish i lived in California
2. Makes me wonder what is on the road there that causes all those guys to "almost" lose it

well, #2 is easy. What's there, is a professional photographer

http://rockstorephotos.com/about.htm

The guy is there basically all day every weekend.

Why take dumb risks to impress "a hot chick", when you can take dumb risks to impress ALL the chicks at once? 
There's also a "live audience" of varying size. Some people just chill there watching riders impress the camera. Some riders (a lot of riders, actually) come to watch what other riders do. etc,etc.
It's almost like a free track day. Except shorter, and ideally slower. A little less safety, a whole lot less price.

So that's why you see a lot of youtube videos of that spot: it's the spot where everyone comes to.  There's around 20 turns on the snake, but that's the big well-known one.
The bizzarre thing is.. that turn is a somewhat easy left turn, as left turns go.
Yes, it's tight, but it's also banked a little in the good direction, AND it's uphilll, so you get free safe braking if you need it.
And most people are only going 40. You've gotta either be complete noob, or way over speeding, to wipe out there.
(you can see the noob factor by the people crashing who are taking it way wide. whats up with that...)

[I had *my* off, on a different, non-banked turn , for what it's worth ]

Most youtube vids of it are from the inside rise, since that's the "safe" place to stand
But that doesnt show you what the road is really like.
Here's a different perspective on that turn, mostly from the actual road level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV5KDHItiDk


FYI, The photographer actually encourages folks to go slower, not insane. From his web site:
"Riders and drivers in search of an epic image should also keep in mind that speed does not lead to better pictures. In fact, just the opposite is the case"

PS: very very late retroactive edit:


_DSC1238 by RockStorePhotos.com, on Flickr

[BaltimoreGS]

#2 is an awesome thing to do.........on a dirt bike! 

EDIT: If you want to learn "highside avoidance" go buy yourself a dirt bike, all street riders should start there 

+1

All my best crash avoidance techniques on the street are derived from my years of dirt riding.  When you are used to the feel of sliding on a motorcycle in the dirt it doesn't freak you out when it happens on the street.

-Jessie

[Suzuki Stevo]

+1

All my best crash avoidance techniques on the street are derived from my years of dirt riding.  When you are used to the feel of sliding on a motorcycle in the dirt it doesn't freak you out when it happens on the street.

-Jessie

Agreed, see...no highside!

[ninjeff]

The compilation of the "close calls"  on Mullholand does three things for me:
1. Make me wish i lived in California
2. Makes me wonder what is on the road there that causes all those guys to "almost" lose it

well, #2 is easy. What's there, is a professional photographer

http://rockstorephotos.com/about.htm

The guy is there basically all day every weekend.

Why take dumb risks to impress "a hot chick", when you can take dumb risks to impress ALL the chicks at once? 
There's also a "live audience" of varying size. Some people just chill there watching riders impress the camera. Some riders (a lot of riders, actually) come to watch what other riders do. etc,etc.
It's almost like a free track day. Except shorter, and ideally slower. A little less safety, a whole lot less price.

So that's why you see a lot of youtube videos of that spot: it's the spot where everyone comes to.  There's around 20 turns on the snake, but that's the big well-known one.
The bizzarre thing is.. that turn is a somewhat easy left turn, as left turns go.
Yes, it's tight, but it's also banked a little in the good direction, AND it's uphilll, so you get free safe braking if you need it.
And most people are only going 40. You've gotta either be complete noob, or way over speeding, to wipe out there.
(you can see the noob factor by the people crashing who are taking it way wide. whats up with that...)

[I had *my* off, on a different, non-banked turn , for what it's worth ]

Most youtube vids of it are from the inside rise, since that's the "safe" place to stand
But that doesnt show you what the road is really like.
Here's a different perspective on that turn, mostly from the actual road level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV5KDHItiDk


FYI, The photographer actually encourages folks to go slower, not insane. From his web site:
"Riders and drivers in search of an epic image should also keep in mind that speed does not lead to better pictures. In fact, just the opposite is the case"

Well, that addresses my number 2 question, but does nothing to help #1!!!!!

Seriously, that second video made it look like a slice of heaven. Maybe its living in the god forsaken midwest, where the entire road system is laid out like a grid-square, or maybe its because the video was edited to make it look like its just rider after rider all day long. I dont know.

But damnit, that road just got added to "the list". Hell, i'd just grab a burger and fries and go sit for an afternoon and enjoy the sites and sounds.

[Juan1]

I've never high sided, but a high side seems to be equivalent to over-correcting in a car.  Speaking as a guy that occasionally drifts his Miata on an empty road, I can tell you that in a car it is better to relax the turn angle (don't quite point them straight and don't go opposite lock) and lift just slightly.  Whatever you do, don't go opposite lock, and suddenly lift.

[Phil B]

Well, that addresses my number 2 question, but does nothing to help #1!!!!!

Seriously, that second video made it look like a slice of heaven. Maybe its living in the god forsaken midwest, where the entire road system is laid out like a grid-square, or maybe its because the video was edited to make it look like its just rider after rider all day long. I dont know.

But damnit, that road just got added to "the list". Hell, i'd just grab a burger and fries and go sit for an afternoon and enjoy the sites and sounds.

heh. well, most of (southern) california, or at least where the majority of people live,  is flat also. But the hilly bits are usually 1 hr's drive away at most.
For me too, unfortunately. but at least I can get there!

It's a good thing it isnt really riders going by every second. Otherwise, when would you get YOUR turn? 
There's usually a few mins between each wave. Well, depending on time of day. 11am-1pm on weekends I think is peak time.

I cant believe there's no youtube of a gs500 mounted cam, riding the snake!

Someone lend me a cam plus mount, and I'll go film it for us!

meanwhile, if you want to see what the REST of the 2 mile thing looks like, here's a reasonable substitute:
an sv650 trailing a cowardly R6 up the snake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMHeZOqginA
(note: HD available there)

"That turn" is the last one, around 2:27.

(I think the place I low-sided back in august, was the big open-side left turn right arond 2:02)

On the one hand, "no-rail" turns, usually means "dont worry about it".
But after I'd just come out of the  double super-tight railed turns, I probably saw "Big Turn No Rails!!" and freaked.

[burning1]

False: rider hasnt changed throttle, brake, or anything else. rear wheel has just happened to lose traction and start sliding
(due to gravel, or extreme lean hitting peg, and causing rear wheel to briefly lift out of contact with ground, and slide).
In this case, if rider does not change inputs but still tries to straighten bike... rear wheel is going to connect under normal power, and throw him off.
In that situation, surely it is better to either pull in clutch (possibly all the way), or reduce/cut power?

I've had the rear tire step out due to gravel and oil. When that happens, the best I could hope for is that the wheel re-connected before the bike got too out of shape. You'll notice in the video, that most of the riders who saved it did so by chopping the throttle or clutching before the bike got too out of shape. It still bucked them, but not hard enough to high-side. You'll also note that a lot of the riders stand up, so that the bike isn't throwing around the majority of their weight. This seems to be a semi-instinctual reaction.

I can't advise on the best course of action when traction conditions force the rear tire out under neutral input conditions. I find that generally bikes behave better when you're either on the gas or on the brakes.

[piresito]

#2 is an awesome thing to do.........on a dirt bike! 

EDIT: If you want to learn "highside avoidance" go buy yourself a dirt bike, all street riders should start there 

It's not the first time I hear this!! And neither from currently dirt riders!

[ohgood]

#2 is an awesome thing to do.........on a dirt bike! 

EDIT: If you want to learn "highside avoidance" go buy yourself a dirt bike, all street riders should start there 

+1

All my best crash avoidance techniques on the street are derived from my years of dirt riding.  When you are used to the feel of sliding on a motorcycle in the dirt it doesn't freak you out when it happens on the street.

-Jessie

+1 its so much more fun to laugh on the way down, watch the bike do a dough nut automagically, and get up un hurt (in the dirt).

On the street, I've slid a few times because of traction problems, never because of being in a fast corner and trying to drag a knee. Recovering is a sweet drop of heaven wrapped up in adrenalin and thankfulness.

[noiseguy]

I've never high sided, but a high side seems to be equivalent to over-correcting in a car.  Speaking as a guy that occasionally drifts his Miata on an empty road, I can tell you that in a car it is better to relax the turn angle (don't quite point them straight and don't go opposite lock) and lift just slightly.  Whatever you do, don't go opposite lock, and suddenly lift.

I loved my Miata for that kind of stuff; very balanced. That said, a bike is more like a rear-engined Porsche, which will go into off-throttle oversteer in a heartbeat. With all the weight in the back, you have to stay *on* the gas around corners (or when it starts oversteering) to keep any semblance of control. The Miata, on the other hand, will quickly correct it's trajectory if you go off-throttle (it straightens out and behaves, in other words.)

Going off the gas is a survival reaction that most people have. This is why people that drive Miatas like them, and why so many Porsches get crashed.

As for the bike; all a highside is is the bike trying to go straight from an oversteer condition against the best efforts of the rider

+1 on riding dirt bikes to learn on-throttle oversteer... it's the right bike and venue.

[Rough Customer]

I hate this topic.     But it is one of my most pondered riding topics.  I steered into a gravel slide and it kicked me in to the air and I managed to land back on the bike and regain control.  That said I am 100% sure that I responded to the situation incorrectly.  It kills me.  Almost.

[Phil B]

I've had the rear tire step out due to gravel and oil. When that happens, the best I could hope for is that the wheel re-connected before the bike got too out of shape. You'll notice in the video, that most of the riders who saved it did so by chopping the throttle or clutching before the bike got too out of shape. It still bucked them, but not hard enough to high-side. You'll also note that a lot of the riders stand up, so that the bike isn't throwing around the majority of their weight. This seems to be a semi-instinctual reaction.
...

As Keith Code says, paraphrasing: When you're on a bike, "instinct" is usually wrong
I'm guessing standing up is dirt bike technique. Methinks on street, this is a bad idea, but you can probably get away with it on dirt bike riding, because traction is worse, so you are much much less likely to highside.


I'm not sure which video you are referring to.. but in the Rossi one I gave
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIHfg3KJEY ) he most definitely does not stand up during the slide.
(he stands up AFTER, but that's more to show off to the crowd   )

(hmm.. maybe in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlMbFlPzS24 that guy really DID "jump" off the bike in a manner of speaking... perhaps he tried to stand up, but his rising momentum got him unseated too much? )

[Rough Customer]

It flung him.  Standing up might have kept him from flying as far?  Maybe it made the bike hit hit nuts harder?  I dunno.

[noiseguy]

Whole bunch of vids of the same spot with guys  that recover...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcZyDSM6GI

[BaltimoreGS]

I've had the rear tire step out due to gravel and oil. When that happens, the best I could hope for is that the wheel re-connected before the bike got too out of shape. You'll notice in the video, that most of the riders who saved it did so by chopping the throttle or clutching before the bike got too out of shape. It still bucked them, but not hard enough to high-side. You'll also note that a lot of the riders stand up, so that the bike isn't throwing around the majority of their weight. This seems to be a semi-instinctual reaction.
...

As Keith Code says, paraphrasing: When you're on a bike, "instinct" is usually wrong
I'm guessing standing up is dirt bike technique. Methinks on street, this is a bad idea, but you can probably get away with it on dirt bike riding, because traction is worse, so you are much much less likely to highside.


I'm not sure which video you are referring to.. but in the Rossi one I gave
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIHfg3KJEY ) he most definitely does not stand up during the slide.
(he stands up AFTER, but that's more to show off to the crowd   )

(hmm.. maybe in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlMbFlPzS24 that guy really DID "jump" off the bike in a manner of speaking... perhaps he tried to stand up, but his rising momentum got him unseated too much? )

Dirtbikes teach you to weight the front wheel when the back starts to slide which may entail standing on the pegs to get your weight where it needs to be.  Dirtbike 101, put the front tire where you want to go and the rear will eventually follow   

-Jessie

[Phil B]

Dirtbikes teach you to weight the front wheel when the back starts to slide which may entail standing on the pegs to get your weight where it needs to be.  Dirtbike 101, put the front tire where you want to go and the rear will eventually follow   

Mmm.... I'm guessing this is in the "dirt bike riding is similar, yet different" category.
Dirt bike riding, you  basically Want and Expect the rear wheel to be sliding around a lot. Street, you dont.
I'm thinking keeping your rear on the seat, makes the wheel slide less. (doest STOP it, but lessens it).
Which is why, again, a lot of dirt bike riding is done standing on the pegs..and street riding, is the opposite.

In that "amateur night" video posted, there were a lot of people who stood.. and IMO they did it badly. straight straight legs. Then there were just one or two who stood slightly, so their legs were shock absorbers. and there were one or two that did not stand at all.
Me, I'm going to aim for the "not stand" technique.

[ninjeff]

well, i think the "slight stand" in this instance is a good thing as it allows the bike to wriggle a little bit underneath the rider and not buck him (or her!) off.
This is not to say that you should stand up and salute, but simply get the butt off the seat a bit to keep the bike from tossing you off.

[mister]

+1 with learning dirt - but - hard to highside cause the rear never regrips so violently.

1 - avoid highside in first place by doing pace riding

2 - there is no technique to learn in a day or by reading that will benefit because everything happens too fast to consciously control.

3 - on dirt your weight is on the pegs, on the street it is on the seat. In this way the bike can dance beneath you and you are still riding.

4 - closest I came to hs was when I was making a turn and a truck had started to come out of side street. This forced me to take the corner late and the back started sliding out in the debris zone. Before I knew what was going on my inside foot had come off the peg as if I was riding a dirt bike. My years of dirt bike riding has taught my sub con what to do and it did it. Mind you, this was low speed.

[BaltimoreGS]

Dirtbikes teach you to weight the front wheel when the back starts to slide which may entail standing on the pegs to get your weight where it needs to be.  Dirtbike 101, put the front tire where you want to go and the rear will eventually follow   

Mmm.... I'm guessing this is in the "dirt bike riding is similar, yet different" category.
Dirt bike riding, you  basically Want and Expect the rear wheel to be sliding around a lot. Street, you dont.
I'm thinking keeping your rear on the seat, makes the wheel slide less. (doest STOP it, but lessens it).
Which is why, again, a lot of dirt bike riding is done standing on the pegs..and street riding, is the opposite.

Maybe it translates better to stunting     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQfFk3OiTTE

-Jessie

[Phil B]

Maybe it translates better to stunting     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQfFk3OiTTE

-Jessie

I cant help noting, that mr. stunt guy there... did NOT "have his weight on the pegs" to control HIS "rear wheel slides". it was all o the seat (and handlebars)