highside avoidance technique

[Phil B]

I'd like to be mentally prepared for avoiding a highside.

I've noticed that in all the videos of them I've seen recently,
eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlMbFlPzS24

the following things happen:

1. they're in big lean
2. the rear starts slipping
3. they attempt to correct by turning handlebars into the slide

okay, so far so good, but then

4. the rear wheel connects
5. the sudden power uprights the bike out of the lean, which
6. tosses the rider off the side


For people who've had experienced recovering this situation, can you comment if it's best at point #3, to
a) pull in clutch
b) go off throttle
c) a & b
d) other ?

I'm thinking "c", because if you're at high revs... even if you let off the throttle, it's still going to kick with some power when the wheel connects?

[kg1709]

I think its probably best to avoid points 1 & 2 wherever possible in the first place!

I might be wrong but the guy in the video seemed to roll on the throttle mid corner...not sure. ...watch his hand in the slo-mo.

TBH, not sure you would have time to correct but rolling off the throttle as gently as possible has to help?

EDIT...and sorry Phil I have never experienced this.

[ohgood]

i don't know phil-

but i'll bet you need to high-side a few times, maybe 12, before you have the almost instinctive reflex to do the right thing before it's too late. watch just how FAST it goes from a power slide/brake slide/gravel to a high side. it's fractions of a second. once the weight begins to shift, it's over for all of us except the elite.


post up if you find a noteworthy recommendation / video tutorial, ok ?

safer every day

[burning1]

High sides usually happen when a rider induced input, such as body position, throttle, or rear brake is over-applied and then abruptly released. The tire hooks up when the rider gets off the gas, or releases the brake, and then violently throws the rider off.

If the rear tire starts sliding, the best course of action is to check the throttle or brake application and decrease lean angle - meaning that you don't add more force, you simply hold whatever force you are applying, and then counter steer to slowly pick the bike up.

Your goal is to make the tire hook up slowly. All of your proposed solutions would cause a high-side.

[Pontiackid73]

The secret is DON'T DO ANYTHING. Preferably you would avoid the situation altogether and yes kg1709 the dude did roll on the throttle to much. see this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkalHQ6eRVw&feature=relmfu

This may sound stupid to some but when the rear slips out bad, let it go. If its a minor slip you can save it by NOT reacting to it ( or like burning 1 says very minor input changes), but if its bad lay it down smoothly as possible and let her slide. You are protected from lowside with proper riding gear but nothing will save your body from a high side. Let you and the bike slide and be mad at yourself for scratching up your bike later v.s. being in a hospital.

I'm referring to street riding here, i have no track experience on the subject so it may be different when racing

[Phil B]

High sides usually happen when a rider induced input, such as body position, throttle, or rear brake is over-applied and then abruptly released. The tire hooks up when the rider gets off the gas, or releases the brake, and then violently throws the rider off.

If the rear tire starts sliding, the best course of action is to check the throttle or brake application and decrease lean angle - meaning that you don't add more force, you simply hold whatever force you are applying, and then counter steer to slowly pick the bike up.

Your goal is to make the tire hook up slowly. All of your proposed solutions would cause a high-side.

weelll.. i can think of a situation where what you said is true.. and i can think of situation where what you said should be false.

True: rider has applied rear brake in corner. rear slides. best to stay on brake and not change anything until recovery.

False: rider hasnt changed throttle, brake, or anything else. rear wheel has just happened to lose traction and start sliding
(due to gravel, or extreme lean hitting peg, and causing rear wheel to briefly lift out of contact with ground, and slide).
In this case, if rider does not change inputs but still tries to straighten bike... rear wheel is going to connect under normal power, and throw him off.
In that situation, surely it is better to either pull in clutch (possibly all the way), or reduce/cut power?

I came across youtube video of racer having lowside on wet. commentator said something like,
"he cut power after he lost traction, but he was at the limit, so nothing he could do about it"

[crzydood17]

remember the MSF, rear tire slides, DO NOTHING, I would even think unless you where super lucky the best thing to do with a rear tire sliding in a corner would be to punch it or hit the rear brake hard just to force a low side...

[Bluesmudge]

That rider is not leaning into the corner at all, it almost looks like he is leaning to the outside of the bike.

On a corner like that you need to be leaning way to the inside. Not necessarily dragging a knee, but getting your weight inside will decrease the lean angle for the same road speed. This will help prevent the high side situation from happening in the first place.

[k.rollin]

To avoid a highside, short of not putting yourself in such a situation, I think the appropriate course of action is to either follow burning1's suggestions, or do nothing and ride it out. I used to force my rear end to step out while riding on grass when I had my DT100K, and I found that trying to correct the situation by cutting power or applying brake would result in a fall, but by just staying calm and letting the bike do what it wants, I'd stay upright.

[piresito]

Just found this: http://youtu.be/tNcZyDSM6GI

Theres one supermotard guy that pulls the clutch to save it...

[Shepa]

As to my own experience, while back tyre is sliding, the best possible solution is to keep the throttle opened as it is (huge amount of mental force needed ), and countersteer (car drift term is opposite lock) the bike till both wheels are in-line and bike straightened up, presuming (or rather hoping) there's no oncoming traffic.

Everything else is counter productive.
When the rear starts to slid away, you instinctively (self-preservation instinct) roll off the throttle, at that point the rear grips again, but since it's out of front wheel center line, the bike's gyroscopic effect tends to level that up, and your own body weight (and it's inertial laziness to move) is your worst enemy, you're getting airborne.

Like I said, it takes years of practice to force yourself NOT to throttle off, but to keep it open just like it was when the slide started.
Some people say it's even better to open it more, but that way the rear tyre just goes even further out of line, that way you'll pretty soon ran out of road space for countersteer (opposite lock) the bike straight.

I have never experienced the full "pleasure" of highside body slam (and I hope I never will), but I've had my fair share of tank slappers and icy sweat moments, just because I rolled the throttle off while the rear was sliding.

So, if you want to be prepared, there's no other way but to practice. The only problem is, if you do it wrong, you'll wreck your bike (and your body). 
Find some deserted road, or a empty parking lot with a corner that suits you best (left or right), preferably with low(er) surface grip level, initiate the powerslide (easy at first, to develop a feeling when the tyre will let go) be prepared for it, and force yourself not to roll off the throttle.
After that, it's only practice, practice, practice.

I suggest a second gear for practicing. 1st has too much momentum, and the 3rd too little, presuming you'll practice at reasonably low speed.


And yes... this is all fine when you WANT to powerslide in the first place, but when you're riding, and the rear starts to slide unintentionally, and you're thinking of something completely different... that's the moment it get's hairy.

[gsJack]

I'd like to be mentally prepared for avoiding a highside.

Won't hurt to give it some thought, might even help, but there's nothing like on the job training to make something a usable part of your "muscle memory", a part of your subconscience reactions.  If it happens fast your reactions have to be equally fast, faster than you can consciencly think it thru at the moment.

When I started riding I rode my 4 old Hondas like an old man should ride (started at age 52)  and I used mostly Dunlop K491 touring tires on them for about a quarter million miles without any traction issues and with great tire life.  When I bought my first GS at age 66 I replaced my oem tires with BT45s and then went to the Dunlop touring tires for milage and quickly discovered my sporty GS wanted to go around corners much faster than those Dunlops did.  I learned to catch a sliding GS quickly and frequently with a flick of the wrists without changing pace and without loosing it in a corner and it turned out to be a good experience putting 20k miles on them.

In all my years of GS riding year around I've hit a few ice patches straight on and just keep it straight without changing pace and glided across without mishaps. I hit black ice only once in all those years and it was in a left hand corner at about 40 mph and I was in the left ice free tire lane and hit the edge of the black ice in the center of the road and just held it steady in a 2 wheel slide across the ice strip and caught it in the ice free right tire lane with incident but I did have some good radials on then.  Best to keep a steady pace when the bike starts to do funny stuff.   

[remn]

If you want to countersteer to straighten up, didn't the guy in the vid posted by OP turn the handlebars in the wrong direction, so as to increase lean angle and make the highside even worse? You'd want to push on the outside handlebar to straighten up the bike, but he pulled the outside handlebar in.

I say, the best way to avoid a highside is to keep your GS500 and don't get a 600cc+ bike. It's very hard to highside on a GS500 

[Phil B]

If you want to countersteer to straighten up, didn't the guy in the vid posted by OP turn the handlebars in the wrong direction, so as to increase lean angle and make the highside even worse? You'd want to push on the outside handlebar to straighten up the bike, but he pulled the outside handlebar in.

The rider in the vid did it correctly:, albeit not with perfect timing: he turned "right", when it started happening.

See the master do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPIHfg3KJEY 

Watching the crash in slow motion,  and then manually slowing it down even MORE, by "feathering" the pause button it looks/sounds like that guy had the engine kick too hard, so it came around too quickly. So what started as  "turn into the slide" became "turn too far the wrong way".


He wasnt leaned enough with the bike to start with too.
Initially, he wasnt leaning with the bike enough; half of his body was leaning a bit against it, seems like.
(I think he was suffering from knee dragger wannabe syndrome: he was hanging his hip/knee off, but his TORSO was to the right.  Bad Idea! )
So then, the bike suddenly wanted to upright.. and it did. but he didnt. initially.
Odd thing is, that then seemed to create a bit of a whip effect. or something.  In the slowmo, the bike initially straightened.. nothing much happened to him... but a split-second later, THEN he went flying forward. almost looks like he "jumped" forward.

Weird stuff.


Note that in the video i just linked here, Rossi keeps it leaned, the whole time in the turn.
But the original crasher in my first video, did not.

I say, the best way to avoid a highside is to keep your GS500 and don't get a 600cc+ bike. It's very hard to highside on a GS500 

heh.. thumbs up for that but I think i could somehow manage to do it if I'm not careful ...

[slipperymongoose]

No one has really delved into it here yet so I will. While watching twist of the wrist 2, the technique was to slowly roll off the throttle and NOT chop it. All the while let the bike correct itself, I know this has been said but combined with the roll off technique can correct a highside.

[riot]

This may sound stupid to some but when the rear slips out bad, let it go. If its a minor slip you can save it by NOT reacting to it ( or like burning 1 says very minor input changes), but if its bad lay it down smoothly as possible and let her slide. You are protected from lowside with proper riding gear but nothing will save your body from a high side. Let you and the bike slide and be mad at yourself for scratching up your bike later v.s. being in a hospital.

^
that right there, only time i ever had a rear tire slide that is exactly what i did. gently lay it down and slide to a stop. got a small rip in my jacket sleeve and a couple scrapes on the bike (glad it was just a beater bike lol) got up a little shaken but unharmed, picked up my bike and rode home. always better to low side it fix some scratches than to overcompensate and high side it and totally ruin your bike and yourself

[ninjeff]

If you watch the Rossi video again, you'll noticed that the bike even gave him a little "buck". Of course, Rossi has experience and practice enough that it didnt phase him.

The compilation of the "close calls"  on Mullholand does three things for me:
1. Make me wish i lived in California
2. Makes me wonder what is on the road there that causes all those guys to "almost" lose it
3 reinforce my love of great gear.

I cant answer the high side question, exactly, but i CAN say that not diving into that kind of riding off the bat is key. It also REALLY makes me want to do some track instruction.

[Funderb]

I'm by no means super experienced or a racer, nor have I been involved in a lot of slips or accidents, but as I see it, the same applies for these things:

1. Regaining control of a sliding car
2. Regaining control of a sliding bike
3. Backing up a trailer

that is, large corrections and inputs disproportionate to the magnitude of the initial problem will ALWAYS end you in:

The trees, road etc
Flipping over your bike
Running your boat/trailer into shyte.

I have experience with 1&2
I drive a lot on dirt and fast, for funsies, albeit safely. I have become good at staying cool and maintaining control of my car. (Though independent susp >>> torsion bars/linked susp - - Cant say it doesn't help)
And I did bust out the lights on my trailer learning to back it up down the ramp as a kid.

My plan, as it were, is to get a beater bike, preferably small displacement, and go out to the dirt forrest roads with some friends during low traffic times, and practice away at sliding, turning and maintaining control. Starting slow of course.

Any more experienced opinions suggest against it? Seriously, Id love some constructive crit.

I think burning1 has said something like: Only track time will make you a better racer. I think that the same applies for this scenario.

[SAFE-T]

I'd like to be mentally prepared for avoiding a highside.

I'd like to avoid them entirely. Try riding The Pace for a change.

[Suzuki Stevo]

#2 is an awesome thing to do.........on a dirt bike! 

EDIT: If you want to learn "highside avoidance" go buy yourself a dirt bike, all street riders should start there