There was a picture somebody posted not too long ago that was comparing old "E" springs to "F" springs and then the "F" springs to progressives and I believe a set of sonics.
If somebody knows where that pic is, could you link it for me? Thanks!
As a side question, the newer generation fork springs are a pretty substantial upgrade for an older bike, right? I'm considering dropping some newer springs in my 97. As it is now it'll bottom out just from going over a speed HUMP - not even a speed BUMP.
But I'm preaching to the choir on this one, I'm sure. LOL!
Here you go.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=59293.msg678513#msg678513
Quote from: bombsquad83 on March 13, 2012, 08:24:39 AM
Here you go.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=59293.msg678513#msg678513
Hey thanks!
the newer gsF springs are somewhat better, but still far from being a worthy upgrade.
i would pick up a set of sonic/race tech springs if you have the play cash.
Quote from: steezin_and_wheezin on March 13, 2012, 08:31:12 AM
the newer gsF springs are somewhat better, but still far from being a worthy upgrade.
i would pick up a set of sonic/race tech springs if you have the play cash.
Hard to justify $100+ shipping versus $20 shipped. That's why! I can always put even better ones in later.
Here's a good question...spring replacement is just plug and play, right? Do I need to add/remove oil? I know that I should probably replace the oil, and I might, but aside from that?
I've got a vacuum pump which will make things very easy if I do replace the oil.
When I (we) replaced the fork seals on my DL1000, we used synthetic ATF in lieu of regular oil. Seemed to be okay. Thoughts/comments on doing the same on the GS?
To my knowledge, ATF can be fairly corrosive. I wouldn't use it in forks as it might affect the seals adversely.
Well apparently it's a fairly controversial topic: http://www.motorcycleforum.com/showthread.php?t=109666
It's an "old school" method near as I can tell.
Anybody know what the stock fork oil weight is on a 97 GS? I know Mobil1 Synthetic ATF is around 7.5wt.
Stock weight is 10W.
New springs (or at least the Progressives I put in my '96 about 7 years ago) require new spacers and a change in the fluid volume.
Substituting something other than fork oil is idiotic. A can of real fork oil is under $15.
jeff
Quote from: Kijona on March 13, 2012, 08:38:45 AM
Hard to justify $100+ shipping versus $20 shipped. That's why! I can always put even better ones in later.
Here's a good question...spring replacement is just plug and play, right? Do I need to add/remove oil? I know that I should probably replace the oil, and I might, but aside from that?
That's $20 you could be spending on a set of proper springs. :)
You will need to correctly set the fork oil level. Removing the springs will cause you to loose some oil. Oil level has a significant impact on how your forks behave at full compression.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on March 13, 2012, 08:55:08 AM
To my knowledge, ATF can be fairly corrosive. I wouldn't use it in forks as it might affect the seals adversely.
I use Dexron ATF all the time. It is actually what is specified in old Honda repair manuals. There's no real difference between a fork seal on a bike and a half shaft axle seal on an automatic transmission in a car.
-Jessie
Viscosity is pretty important in a fork oil. If ATF has the right weight and viscosity index, I don't see why it wouldn't work... But fork oil is pretty cheap.
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on March 13, 2012, 10:28:45 AM
Quote from: bombsquad83 on March 13, 2012, 08:55:08 AM
To my knowledge, ATF can be fairly corrosive. I wouldn't use it in forks as it might affect the seals adversely.
I use Dexron ATF all the time. It is actually what is specified in old Honda repair manuals. There's no real difference between a fork seal on a bike and a half shaft axle seal on an automatic transmission in a car.
-Jessie
Good to know from someone who knows what they are talking about. Whatever floats your boat then I guess? Personally I would use an oil that I know is designed for forks, unless I had some compelling source (like a manual) tell me otherwise.
Quote from: Jeff P on March 13, 2012, 10:12:19 AM
New springs (or at least the Progressives I put in my '96 about 7 years ago) require new spacers and a change in the fluid volume.
Substituting something other than fork oil is idiotic. A can of real fork oil is under $15.
jeff
I appreciate the information on the spacers and fluid volume.
As Jessie said, the old Honda (and I believe others as well) manuals call for ATF. I found this out upon doing more research myself. I don't know how you meant the phrase "is idiotic" but, to me, blindly using something that costs $15, when you have a huge bottle of something that will work sitting on the shelf, is much more idiotic. At the time, the Mobil1 Synthetic ATF was recommended for the 'Strom as a cheap alternative that works just as well as something far more expensive.
As far as spending money on more expensive springs is concerned...my motorcycle is my main form of transportation. It's how I get to work every day and so-on. There are two types of people who ride motorcycles: those who do it for fun and as a hobby, and those who do it for its economical benefit. Then, I guess there are people like me who do it for both reasons. Point being is that $20 shipped (from Adidasguy), is a lot better than $100+ shipping, to solve an issue. I'm not worried about the difference between the new stock springs and sonic springs or progressives or any of that. All I really care about is if it keeps the suspension from bottoming out from running over anything bigger than a pinecone, and improves the handling to a "reasonable level".
Different question...could someone provide me with the specs on fluid level? I'm sure there are different ways of doing it and how to set it and all that, I'll figure that out when I get there. I'll probably use a popsicle stick or wooden chopstick to check the current level.
I think you can get progressives on ebay for 75-80 bucks shipped. other sources may be cheaper even.
Ok "idiotic" was probably too strong, what I'm saying is that I've never thought it made sense to economize on a safety critical item for your motorcycle by substitution. Sure, ATF might work, but I'm not a tribologist so I'll go with the sure thing.
I ended up using a PVC end cap (I think it was 3/4 or 1") as a spacer with my Progressive springs - perfect size and no cutting required (though perhaps that was economizing :laugh:)
jeff
Quote from: Kijona on March 13, 2012, 12:44:20 PM
Quote from: Jeff P on March 13, 2012, 10:12:19 AM
New springs (or at least the Progressives I put in my '96 about 7 years ago) require new spacers and a change in the fluid volume.
Substituting something other than fork oil is idiotic. A can of real fork oil is under $15.
jeff
I appreciate the information on the spacers and fluid volume.
As Jessie said, the old Honda (and I believe others as well) manuals call for ATF. I found this out upon doing more research myself. I don't know how you meant the phrase "is idiotic" but, to me, blindly using something that costs $15, when you have a huge bottle of something that will work sitting on the shelf, is much more idiotic. At the time, the Mobil1 Synthetic ATF was recommended for the 'Strom as a cheap alternative that works just as well as something far more expensive.
As far as spending money on more expensive springs is concerned...my motorcycle is my main form of transportation. It's how I get to work every day and so-on. There are two types of people who ride motorcycles: those who do it for fun and as a hobby, and those who do it for its economical benefit. Then, I guess there are people like me who do it for both reasons. Point being is that $20 shipped (from Adidasguy), is a lot better than $100+ shipping, to solve an issue. I'm not worried about the difference between the new stock springs and sonic springs or progressives or any of that. All I really care about is if it keeps the suspension from bottoming out from running over anything bigger than a pinecone, and improves the handling to a "reasonable level".
Good to see Im not the only one planning this upgrade. I just ordered a set of those springs from Adidasguy too. I figure its a very cheap upgrade since I have to replace my fork seals anyways. I'll take some improvement over no improvement any day.
This will be a worthwhile experiment ...
The harley springers have a sort of capsule with hydraulics in it.
If you made a big fat fork brace with a mounting clevise on top, you could rig the bottom side of the steering stem to take the other mount point for that type of shock and you could pretty much run a little bit of lube type oil and springs in the forks and not need real hydraulics there. The advantage will be that you dont have to worry about seals and them leaking. The capsule unit usually is pretty leak resistant. If it leaks it also is a smaller operation to pull it apart and fix it.
Cool.
Buddha.
This bugger -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DNA-BLACK-SPRINGER-FRONT-END-SHOCK-DAMPENER-KIT-/140658829224?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20bfeb67a8&vxp=mtr
I think it could be one awesome shock for a GS ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Jeff P on March 13, 2012, 01:03:11 PM
Ok "idiotic" was probably too strong, what I'm saying is that I've never thought it made sense to economize on a safety critical item for your motorcycle by substitution. Sure, ATF might work, but I'm not a tribologist so I'll go with the sure thing.
I ended up using a PVC end cap (I think it was 3/4 or 1") as a spacer with my Progressive springs - perfect size and no cutting required (though perhaps that was economizing :laugh:)
jeff
I think Adidas will include the spacers from the forks as well, though I could be mistaken. You're right, if it's safety related I'm not gonna cheap out (I'd never buy used tires for this reason). I just don't see the reason to spend money on something if I don't have to, and it sounds like I don't have to.
Though, now I wonder if it's okay to mix ATF with regular fork oil and at this point I guess I'd be removing it all together since there's no reason not to.
Either way, I need to know what the "correct" oil level is. Though I guess maybe it'd be in my shop manual...though, that's with the stock springs. The new springs are bigger which will change the level somewhat. *headdesk*
@FunderB: Yes, but $80 shipped is still 4x what I'm paying for the springs from Adidas...even if they were $50, that's still more than double, and I wouldn't be supporting Adidas.
Buddha...LOL
I wouldn't ride that...that seems very unsafe. It could work, sure, but what if the the stem cracked after drilling holes in it? EEK!
But I would be interested in seeing it done...just for the hell of it. It's a great idea...not on my bike though! :P
I mailed a pair of the newer ones yesterday to NoSecret, with spacers. The newer ones are better than the old ones so for a couple dollars it is a good temporary upgrade.
Odd - somehow I'm missing one "new" spring. Took 4 apart and only have 3 springs. One must have been put into a rebuilt older fork - so now I gotta go check all the forks on the shelf and see what they have.
One set of newer forks - to my surprise - had progressives! Unfortunately they were not the right diameter - slightly smaller. I don't think that would matter as its like less than 3/8" smaller diameter.
FYI: Around here we use 15w fork oil in all our forks.
Quote from: adidasguy on March 13, 2012, 02:12:24 PM
I mailed a pair of the newer ones yesterday to NoSecret, with spacers. The newer ones are better than the old ones so for a couple dollars it is a good temporary upgrade.
Odd - somehow I'm missing one "new" spring. Took 4 apart and only have 3 springs. One must have been put into a rebuilt older fork - so now I gotta go check all the forks on the shelf and see what they have.
One set of newer forks - to my surprise - had progressives! Unfortunately they were not the right diameter - slightly smaller. I don't think that would matter as its like less than 3/8" smaller diameter.
FYI: Around here we use 15w fork oil in all our forks.
Oh. Well crud....
When I saw baltimores video and he used ATF I was a bit how can I say sceptical, but thinking of it if your in a pinch an needed 10w oil. ATM I'm running .80 sonics or .85, 15w fork oil at 110mm. After a bit of searching through the forum lotta guys seem to be running between stock level and 115mm. When you get new springs if there GS ones upgrade your oil to 15w for a stiffer feel.
Quote from: Kijona on March 13, 2012, 02:23:28 PM
Oh. Well crud....
I'll find it. Its in one of the forks and I'm sure I put it in a special place so I'd remember which one it was and now I forgot. I'll find it. There is that set of slightly smaller diameter progressives......
Quote from: adidasguy on March 13, 2012, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: Kijona on March 13, 2012, 02:23:28 PM
Oh. Well crud....
I'll find it. Its in one of the forks and I'm sure I put it in a special place so I'd remember which one it was and now I forgot. I'll find it. There is that set of slightly smaller diameter progressives......
I wouldn't mind having the progressives if I knew for sure they'd work! Also, wouldn't the diameter affect how stiff the springs are? Less diameter = shorter length of metal used to make it.
Since the problem with the OEM springs seems to be that they are too light, why doesn't someone put in a PVC spacer to preload them more ?
I have opened up some with a 2" aluminum spacer for more pre-load. While that will help, eventually you'll have so much preload you can't screw the cap on and it will limit the amount of travel.
Old springs: I think too weak to try that. The newer ones: an extra inch or two I think would do wonders.
Quote from: SAFE-T on March 13, 2012, 05:16:09 PM
Since the problem with the OEM springs seems to be that they are too light, why doesn't someone put in a PVC spacer to preload them more ?
Preload helps a little, but it won't completely solve the spring-rate problem if the springs are only slightly too soft. The spacers really just move forks up their travel range a little. It will take more force to bottom the bike out, since the springs can compress a little further, but it doesn't really solve the problem of the springs being too soft to begin with. It'll also tend to make your suspension top out, which can also be bad.
Quote from: Kijona on March 13, 2012, 01:22:06 PM
Buddha...LOL
I wouldn't ride that...that seems very unsafe. It could work, sure, but what if the the stem cracked after drilling holes in it? EEK!
But I would be interested in seeing it done...just for the hell of it. It's a great idea...not on my bike though! :P
You dont drill the stem. The stem is infact hollow. I'd take the shock mount off a newer sport bike - like the zx7 series 2000 and later that has an unboltable top clevice and drill and tap the stem part. Then you would insert it in the bottom of the stem and put in a 5-6" long bolt from the top replacing the chrome bolt that is there, which effectively just holds the top part of the triple onto the stem.
Option 2 is to fabricate that whole setup in which case I'd make it long enough to go through the top of the stem and have threads on the outside of it, so you just use a large washer and a nut to work the same way the chrome bolt does now.
Either way, you should end up with about the same result.
Something like this - Remember this is on a savage and I didn't do this on it, I just put a raked out FE on it ... so its just a example.
https://picasaweb.google.com/srinath.the.man/SavageChopperBuild?authkey=Gv1sRgCJ-TlundyLiSngE#5376865753197371010
Cool.
Buddha.
I know adding a spacer is a fairly limited solution just never seen it mentioned much so wondered why. Thanks.