Has anyone swapped a valve shim and then had the shim they just put in break ?
I know Amkluttz did and so did Paragon - but wonder how many others ?
Post back, I had never heard of this on the GS500's till a few weeks ago.
Cool.
Buddha.
Just a bit of into on that:
Mine was a K&L brand shim. (Not sure if they make their shims or simply attain them from a supplier somewhere, like china).
It was ordered through a local dealership who ordered it from Parts Unlimited.
The shim had a good 2000 miles on it before failure.
We have 20 and 40 and more 000 miles on the bikes and never had a failure.
Just cos it looks hardened and they say its hardened ... well its hardened sheite maybe.
Cool.
buddha.
... sounds like a case of the new-ish Chinese 'wonder metal' known to me as "crapalloy" ;) lol
I buy mine from Precision Shims in Melbourne, Australia and have found them to be good. I admit that I have not done many Ks with them yet but if I remember correctly, they claim to be made in Oz and cost around AU$10 plus freight.
I am happy so far.
You can find them at www.precisionshims.com.au (http://www.precisionshims.com.au)
Macka
I also got mine from a local dealer who didn't have any in stock and had to order them. Not sure what brand.
The bucket still seems to have tension on it so it doesn't seem likely that it failed.
-Andy
I got my shims from a local Suzuki and Kawa dealer i measured the thickness of the shim but after putting them in the clearance that they gave me were narrower than the thickness that I calculated them to give me...
ex.
Original shim: 0.72
Clearance: 0.11
New Shim: 0.75
New Clearance: 0.6
Is that a sign of crap shims because I'd much rather buy OEMs than have them break
The bucket will ahve tension on it even if the shim has broken in 1/2 and disappeared.
Thickness calculated vs whatever - well your aritmetis and the number on the shim etc are is 2 different units.
Shim thicknesses are in millimeters.
If you need a 250 shim, it means your shim should be 2.50 mm thick.
You have .72 ? and you need a .75 ? and they gave you something else ? What unit of measurement is that. I dont know of any measurement that will fit.
The thinnest shim is 225 (If I recall) and the fattest you can get I think is a 290 maybe. Below and above that you have way too much wear and have to start spec-ing out the head and machine it back to tolerances. Needless to say, very few people have managed to get that far on a GS (cos I've never heard of it - Maybe GSJack has - I rememeber his saying somethign about needing thinner shims than you can find - Or was it Kerry) Anyway ...
The new shims from whatever source seem to be what are getting broke and destroyed. You get a new shim lately, you're @ risk of having a crapalloy shim ...
Dunno if suzuki original shims are better ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Flame, having trouble understanding the measurements given without units and further explanation I suppose. However, if you had a very tight clearance, you would have to use very thin feeler gauge to measure it. It is a very possible, and a simple mistake to force the thinner gauges into a gap they technically shouldn't fit in. Meaning that the gap you thought you had, is actually smaller than it was bc the thin gauge was 'forced' in, and now your before and after clearances don't match with the size shim you replaced. For these cases, its best to fit a 'test shim' in there to measure the gap more accurately with a larger feeler gauge, which is harder to mistakenly force in the gap. A test shim is simply one that is several size thinner than what was previously in there.
- Bboy
Quote from: The Buddha on September 10, 2014, 11:11:40 AM..........................................The thinnest shim is 225 (If I recall) and the fattest you can get I think is a 290 maybe. Below and above that you have way too much wear and have to start spec-ing out the head and machine it back to tolerances. Needless to say, very few people have managed to get that far on a GS (cos I've never heard of it - Maybe GSJack has - I rememeber his saying somethign about needing thinner shims than you can find - Or was it Kerry) Anyway ...................................
Cool.
Buddha.
It was I Buddha, the thinnest shim is a 215 and I was down to that before 80k miles on the tighter exhaust valve on my 97 GS with no where to go. Twas probably fortunate that I totalled it at 80k miles. :icon_lol: When the tighter of the two exhaust valves started the same pattern at about 30k miles on my 02 GS I went to my wider .003-.005" (.08-.13mm) exhaust valve setting and now at over 100k miles the smallest shim in it is a 245. :thumb:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GSvalvelogs_zps9ef7236a.jpg
SO SORRY that last post was off of the top of my head and I was thinking in terms of clearance for some odd reason
here are the real sizes that I had in the bike...
Old Shim Sizes
Right Intake: 2.62
Clearance: 0.10
Left Intake: 2.62
Clearance: 0.10
Right Exhaust: 2.75
Clearance: 0.11
Left Intake: 2.74
Clearance: 0.13
New Shim Sizes and Clearances
Right Intake: 2.65
Clearance: 0.04
Left Intake: 2.65
Clearance: 0.03
Right Exhaust: 2.80
Clearance: 0.04
Left Intake: 2.80
Clearance: 0.05
Not only did the calculation not match up with the shim differences but it was so strange getting the same measurement time and time again after replacing them and trying to re-install them
Any idea?
If you have a look at the link to Precision Shims that I gave you, you will see that they can supply shims down to 1.40mm (size 140) in 29.5mm diameter.
As for forcing a thin feeler strip (feeler gauge in Oz) that "should not really go" between the shim and lobe, good luck with that. The thin feeler strip will buckle and warp long before you can force it into a tight gap. Ask me how I know! :technical:
Macka
You remove a shim, the bucket will will with oil. You wont get a decent reading if you swap a shim till atleast you turn the motor a few times. Measure and calculate and swap it and you're done.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: onedeathbyflame on September 10, 2014, 07:30:41 PM
SO SORRY that last post was off of the top of my head and I was thinking in terms of clearance for some odd reason
here are the real sizes that I had in the bike...
Old Shim Sizes
Right Intake: 2.62
Clearance: 0.10
Left Intake: 2.62
Clearance: 0.10
Right Exhaust: 2.75
Clearance: 0.11
Left Intake: 2.74
Clearance: 0.13
New Shim Sizes and Clearances
Right Intake: 2.65
Clearance: 0.04
Left Intake: 2.65
Clearance: 0.03
Right Exhaust: 2.80
Clearance: 0.04
Left Intake: 2.80
Clearance: 0.05
Not only did the calculation not match up with the shim differences but it was so strange getting the same measurement time and time again after replacing them and trying to re-install them
Any idea?
That's good to know Macka, Suzuki Shop Manual shows shims from 215-310 same as I list on my valve log linked above and a quick check of an online dealer shows replacement shims from 215-255 are available. A typical aftermarket supplier like C-R-C shows shims from 230-300 available.
When my 97 GS got down to a 215 minimum shim I was considering getting some shims ground down to a smaller size but that bike was totaled and replaced before that occured. I used only Suzuki OEM shims on my 2 GSs.
But how far do we go? When I first started using my wider .08-.13 mm exhaust valve clearance spec I warned others to keep it down to close to the Suzuki .08 mm max if they did a lot of redlining, I rarely had occasion to go over 9-9.5k rpm. Have seen pictures of a GS engine destroyed by a thrown shim and now we have examples of aftermarket shims breaking and doing serious engine damage.
Don't think I'd go too much below the Suzuki 215 min shim size unless I kept the gaps down to Suzuki's .03-.08 mm size? What do you think about using a 140 shim, I wouldn't even consider it myself.
+1
To what Buddha just said. If you do need to check gap after shim change be sure to turn the engine over a few revs to squeeze out oil under the shim before checking.
Quote from: gsJack on September 11, 2014, 06:00:49 AM
+1
to squeeze out oil under the shim before checking.
Wait.... There isn't suppose to be oil in the bucket when the shim is in?
Quote from: onedeathbyflame on September 11, 2014, 08:00:32 AM
Quote from: gsJack on September 11, 2014, 06:00:49 AM
+1
to squeeze out oil under the shim before checking.
Wait.... There isn't suppose to be oil in the bucket when the shim is in?
You're confusing 2 different things.
Oil in the bucket is not bad at all ... in fact it is good.
However you will not get a measurement till you get it out, cos the shim can float on top of the trapped oil till you get all these things moving and rotating and squeezing out.
Cool.
Buddha.
All of the oil does not squeeze out...A microscopic thin layer stays in there between the metal parts...but if you don't rotate the engine a couple times, then the oil does not squeeze down to microscopic, and will throw off your measurements / calculations...
Cookie
Quote from: The Buddha on September 11, 2014, 09:20:17 AM
Quote from: onedeathbyflame on September 11, 2014, 08:00:32 AM
Quote from: gsJack on September 11, 2014, 06:00:49 AM
+1
to squeeze out oil under the shim before checking.
Wait.... There isn't suppose to be oil in the bucket when the shim is in?
You're confusing 2 different things.
Oil in the bucket is not bad at all ... in fact it is good.
However you will not get a measurement till you get it out, cos the shim can float on top of the trapped oil till you get all these things moving and rotating and squeezing out.
Cool.
Buddha.
Aha ok this makes much more sense thanks for clearing the misconception everyone :)
I agree with you Jack, certainly about keeping the tolerances within Suzuki spec if you are going to "red-line" the engine. Mine has never been over 9,500-10,000 and that was only a few times when I was giving it some curry around the Phillip Island GP track. At that time I was running the standard specs. Since then I have changed to your recommended wider specs (actually a couple of points wider still, but JUST). Normally I stay under 6-7000 rpm.
On the subject of using a 140 shim, I don't know. It is a high reving engine so I would have to think about it. Many car engines use shims around that size but generally they are red-lined around half of the GS red-line. If you were a rider like me who generally stays in the lower half of the rev range and the specs were within Suzuki recommendations I would think that you would not have too much to lose. If it went "bang" on a big rev, well, it was due for a rebuild anyway, otherwise you would not have needed the thin shims in the first place!
A little common sense can save a lot of heartache.
Macka
This year June i have same problem with broken valve shim
during regular valves clearance checking two original shims 2.60 was replaced on aftermarket 2.55
after ~1500 km one intake vlv shim broken on aprox ~7k rpm.
i stop engine immediately
was replaced one intake valve tappet, intake cam and instalend SGP shims)
defective aftermarket shims was purchaced here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/29-5mm-Diameter-Valve-Shim-Size-2-55-SUZUKI-GS550-GS650-GS750-GS850-GS1000-etc-/161304495465?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item258e7f4569&vxp=mtr
[attachment deleted by admin]
Do we have any metallurgists here? I work in a machine shop and have access to a Niton Alloy Analyzer (determines the percentage of different metals like cadmium, nickel, etc) in a piece of metal. I also have access to a Brinell hardness tester (or Rockwell hardness tester). If somebody wants to donate a couple shims I can have them tested and check the differences. New, used, OEM, cheap aftermarket, etc.
I do want to say: the hardness test will destroy the shim though.
As you know, Amkluttz and I both had the same problem, broken valve shims.
He contacted me to see if I'd sent him a new bucket since he was able to repair his engine (mine had to be replaced). To make a long story short, i grabbed a bucket, removed it and decided I'd keep the shim that was in it (even though its a replaced K&L shim)
Grabbed a flat pick and went to pop the shim out barely touched the shim.
The next 1000 words can be seen below
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: deniskin on September 12, 2014, 02:36:47 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/29-5mm-Diameter-Valve-Shim-Size-2-55-SUZUKI-GS550-GS650-GS750-GS850-GS1000-etc-/161304495465?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item258e7f4569&vxp=mtr
^ I looked at the ebay page. Its a K&L supply shim
When I did my valve check 4000 miles ago, I used shims from here:
http://www.newmotorcycleparts.com/motor_parts/valve_shims.html
I'm hoping they don't use the same supplier. I will be ordering OEM shims next time! I'm surprised to hear that dealerships are ordering and using aftermarket shims on customer's bikes. I would think this would be against policy, as the OEM would want them to use parts that are under their own quality standards.
Wow! I've always swapped shims with my local dealers.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on September 12, 2014, 07:17:21 AM
When I did my valve check 4000 miles ago, I used shims from here:
http://www.newmotorcycleparts.com/motor_parts/valve_shims.html
I'm hoping they don't use the same supplier. I will be ordering OEM shims next time! I'm surprised to hear that dealerships are ordering and using aftermarket shims on customer's bikes. I would think this would be against policy, as the OEM would want them to use parts that are under their own quality standards.
If I were wearing your shoes right now, I'd pull the valve cover and replace them with suzuki shims, especially if they're K&L's (which is seeming to be the faulty shims). It might cost you $80 or something for 4 shims.. but its better than trying to find a motor for $800 or trying to fix the current one, if its at all savageable at all.
Quote from: HPP8140 on September 12, 2014, 08:59:52 AM
Wow! I've always swapped shims with my local dealers.
There's a scary thought. These shims will be on the market and swapped into dealers stock for a while. Who knows what you are getting.
Is there any way to gaurentee that you get them directly from suzuki? I guess I would look when I got them and see if they are in a sealed suzuki bag with the part number.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on September 12, 2014, 11:23:56 AM
Is there any way to gaurentee that you get them directly from suzuki? I guess I would look when I got them and see if they are in a sealed suzuki bag with the part number.
It looks like the K&L shims are labled 2-55 or 2-50.
Each mfg has a little differet font or way to etch the # into the shim.
If you compare the fonts it shouldnt be too hard to pick out a suzuki shim.
Good point. I don't believe mine were labeled in this way.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on September 12, 2014, 11:23:56 AM
Quote from: HPP8140 on September 12, 2014, 08:59:52 AM
Wow! I've always swapped shims with my local dealers.
There's a scary thought. These shims will be on the market and swapped into dealers stock for a while. Who knows what you are getting.
Is there any way to gaurentee that you get them directly from suzuki? I guess I would look when I got them and see if they are in a sealed suzuki bag with the part number.
Yeah, haven't had issues in over 70k miles. My dealer is nice enough to bring out a box and let me swap shims...think it's an oem box.
Quote from: bombsquad83 on September 12, 2014, 12:19:35 PM
Good point. I don't believe mine were labeled in this way.
yeah I haven't seen one with a dash
Well, after i take a few pics, K&L is going to get a nice heartfelt letter from me. I dont expect that they'll do anything about it, let alone even reply to me, but Its worth a shot. And if anything it brings some attention to the faulty product that they're supplying.
I've had luck with contacting other companies about their products. Hi-flo sent me a replacement filter that worked much better on the GS than the one they reccomend, Cramp buster replaced a broken cramp buster, Ruger fixed a handgun of mine, no charge and sent me a bunch of swag besides! Its always worth a shot, right!
OMFG .... Looks like crapalloy form china has been upgraded to potato chipalloy.
Cool.
Buddha.
I wasn't impressed with K&L carb rebuild kit quality vs OEM either. Ending up needing to get OEM needle valve sets.
It is starting to look like the common thread here is the K&L brand!
Is there any other common thread? Like wide clearances? or high rpm?
I think I remember reading somewhere that K&L shims were made of a harder material than stock, and that this was bad because it would wear the cam rather than the shim....
In my experience..."hardness" usually means"brittleness"...hmmmm this whole deal is disconcerting to me!
Cookie
I would think shims are like cams - they are parkerized - its not quite hardened.
And hardening isn't always going to render the metal brittle. It depends on the base alloy. I have some tools - in fact they are chinese, that are not brittle at al, but yet they are hard as glass. The composition of the metal that is hardened determines what it ends up like.
Cool.
Buddha.
Interesting info....metallurgy is some crazy science....It seems to me there a lot of easy ways to get it wrong...and only one way to get it right!
The shims which are breaking and shattering are "hard" and "brittle"...not good...
seems like we want hard, but not too hard, and not too brittle...
so is it K&L that is the problem?
Should we stick with OEM Suzuki shims?
Cookie
Quote from: The Buddha on September 13, 2014, 04:51:17 AM
I would think shims are like cams - they are parkerized - its not quite hardened.
And hardening isn't always going to render the metal brittle. It depends on the base alloy. I have some tools - in fact they are chinese, that are not brittle at al, but yet they are hard as glass. The composition of the metal that is hardened determines what it ends up like.
Cool.
Buddha.
If you can make sure they are suzuki shims ? Heck who knows, maybe the later suzuki stuff is junk too.
Our shim kits have been around since 2004-5, probably have had many mixed in from all sorts of vintages.
There is a few people I know who can analyze and make shims - but we need to be prepared to order a 1000 lot with no more than say 10 sizes, like 100 per size, and they cant number each one, you're gonna have to measure it and use it.
Cool.
Buddha.
Well I sent K&L an email. With lots of pics, explainations and expectations on what I want to come of the situation.
I got a reply from Anthony of the R&D department. They're filing a claim with wherever they get the shims from. I'll have get some receipts and etc for them and they might want whats left of the shims to check them out.
Thats about the only info I have at the moment.
Good thread guys. This is alarming to read about... I have a shim kit I had bought a while back for my GS, and it just occurred to me that... it is K&L and two shims from that kit are in my bike right now. I'm going to work into my schedule some time to change the shims out to Suzuki shims here in the next couple weeks, but I might as well wait to order new shims until I measure the gaps again since I've put almost 4k miles on my bike this summer since I did the shims. Don't want to chance this further for a relatively low cost to replace. Never heard of anything wrong with using another brand of shims, and I looked into it before I purchased the kit... guess its just another reminder to go OEM with vital mechanical parts.
Just sucks I have an entire kit of them, so I'm really interested to find out how this goes for Paragon. Wondering if this is a recent quality issue, or changed supplier for K&L, or its been the same all along and we are just now finding the trend. The kit I have is pretty old... I had bought it from someone else who bought it new in '06, and had three original Suzuki shims swapped from it.
- Bboy
Quote from: BockinBboy on September 17, 2014, 11:54:04 AM
I have a shim kit I had bought a while back for my GS, and it just occurred to me that... it is K&L and two shims from that kit are in my bike right now.
Bboy- Can I ask how those K&L shims are labled? My K&L shims were labled 2-50 and 2-55 (can be seen in one of my previous pics) Just wondering if your older K&L kit had the same style of labling as my newer K&L shims.
It looks like Deniskin's shim was labled with a - between the 2 and the last two #'s also.
I'd say that if I knew I had a K&L shim in an engine I wouldnt even hit the starter. I'd probably pull them out and swap them with suzuki shims. They're pricey, but probably at this point, well worth the money.
I agree, and I have this planned for next week. I went ahead and ordered two of the same size from my local dealership, who ensured me he gets OEM on these - its not showing any symptoms of tight valves, so same sizes 'should' still work. Even if they are tighter clearances (which I don't anticipate), it sounds likes that's better than having K&Ls in there at all. Will do it this way so I'm not down next weekend as well (my bike is pretty much an appendage on weekends), and I'll just have to order again with different sizes if clearances aren't in ideal specs. It'll go faster now that I've done it anyway, I'm sure.
I honestly don't recall for sure off the top of my head, as I have seen many shims since I did mine - and seeing pics of shims in this thread are biasing my memory recall of what mine look like. My kit is in my big roller toolbox, which I'm having moved for me at the moment. I should have access to it again this weekend, though so I'll set a reminder to check that out.
- Bboy
aftermarket shims (i really dont know that it's a K&L shim) seems different than Zuki original
original shim have a more "brighter" color and different font of thickness marking
[attachment deleted by admin]
That looks like all the K&L shims Ive seen.
Just had a chance to take a look at the shims the local dealers ordered for me. Sure enough they are K&L. They have the dash in between the 2 and the 50 just like the ones pictured.
It seems a bit more nuanced, I have checked quite a few sites that say they are selling k&L shims, where the photos show the sizes WITHOUT the dash.
Just food for thought, avoid maybe changing shims for nothing? Can anyone else corroborate?
Photos might inaccurate also though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: bmf on September 18, 2014, 06:18:53 PM
It seems a bit more nuanced, I have checked quite a few sites that say they are selling k&L shims, where the photos show the sizes WITHOUT the dash.
Just food for thought, avoid maybe changing shims for nothing? Can anyone else corroborate?
Photos might inaccurate also though.
My guess is that the online seller is using some sort of generic image. If you ordered some I'd bet that they have the x-xx numbering.
Heres a short update on my dealing with K&L over the valve shims:
I email customer service at K&L and submitted pics and a write up of the issue I had and the amount of money that it had costed me.
K&L is now filing a warranty claim with CRP Automotive. Which is where K&L acquires their shims from. (unsure if CRP actually makes the shims or if they're just yet another middle man in the process). So We'll see where this goes.
Also, a quick google of "CRP valve shims" shows shims with the numbering system X-XX.
So I guess I'd be avoiding shims from K&L as well as CRP Automotive.. or more simply anything that isnt a Suzuki shim.
Thanks Paragon. I'll continue to check back for updates. I was able to check my shims from the K&L kit, and they do have the X-XX numbering system for what that's worth =/
- Bboy
Its interesting to see that K&L actually purchases these from another company the probably purchases them from another company.. that probably purchases them from..???
Seems like alot of middle-men for a lousy chunk of metal.
Yea, and its worse than that for food nowadays. Walmart buy this from A&P who buys it from someone else and they get it from someone else and so on ... and its finally made by "new world pasta" and get this ... walmart buys Mueller pasta from New world pasta directly ... WTF.
We need to eliminate the middle man ... and I need to see the dead body of the middle man. I dont want to hear of the middle man being eliminated, I dont want to read about the midlde man being eliminated, I dont want someone to post a sign on the highway saying the middle man is eliminated ... I need a corpse with a label middle man ...
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on September 25, 2014, 01:39:51 PM
Yea, and its worse than that for food nowadays. Walmart buy this from A&P who buys it from someone else and they get it from someone else and so on ... and its finally made by "new world pasta" and get this ... walmart buys Mueller pasta from New world pasta directly ... WTF.
We need to eliminate the middle man ... and I need to see the dead body of the middle man. I dont want to hear of the middle man being eliminated, I dont want to read about the midlde man being eliminated, I dont want someone to post a sign on the highway saying the middle man is eliminated ... I need a corpse with a label middle man ...
Cool.
Buddha.
BEST REPLY EVER!
I am also in the claims process with Anthony from K&L. Same thing, CRP Automotive claim form I am filling out. I am ordering all of my parts so I can get the motor back together. Hopefully they will pay something towards fixing this.
And on a Happy note: I was all set to get the shims and adjust the valves. Just flat got lazy (since the bike really runs fine) and didn't do it. May be the first time in my life being lazy has paid off.
Really am sorry you guys have had the problem and I hope they help you out.
Quote from: Alan_nc on September 28, 2014, 11:29:29 AM
And on a Happy note: I was all set to get the shims and adjust the valves. Just flat got lazy (since the bike really runs fine) and didn't do it. May be the first time in my life being lazy has paid off.
Really am sorry you guys have had the problem and I hope they help you out.
Right up there with my favorite excuse of - If I can hear the shims then they are OK ... LOL. Yiou can run 5X the clearance and be OK on a GS. Yamaha Maxims run 2X-5X the clearance and the yare almost the same motors.
Cool.
Buddha.
Interesting update, I opened my Weather Channel link this morning and there was an add from BikeBandit for K&L shims and they were $33.95 each for the 29.5 mm dia like we use.
http://www.bikebandit.com/aftermarket-parts/motorcycle-engine-and-exhaust/valve-shim-kits-refills-universal/k-l-valve-adjustment-replacement-shims-29-5mm?b=3082905&utm_source=Criteo
A quick look at online dealer parts fiche shows price of $10.29 (retail $13.90)
http://www.shspowersports.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=92665&category=Motorcycles&make=SUZUKI&year=2001&fveh=2102
BUYER BEWARE, I bought mine from a dealer 10-15 years ago and they were at first $5 each and increased to $13 each for the last. The Suzuki shims were all marked with a decimal point (2.50) and not a dash like said above for K&L (2-50) or a comma like shown in BB K&L ad (2,50).