Hy all,
I am new here and I hope to find some answers.
I have a GS500F from 2005 that has some problems with the clutch or the gear shifter. When the engine is cold it works just fine, after a few minutes of riding, when I stop at a red light, and put the bike in neutral, I have some problems shifting into first gear, or second, sometimes it helps if I give it some throttle, but today it simply did not want to shift into first or second. I stoped the engine and after I started it again it worked. Any ideas?
Thanks and have safe journeys.
Alex
Normally rolling the bike forward or backwards a few inches (depending upon which is easier) is all that's needed. The cogs in the sequential transmission just happened to line up. Nothing wrong with the bike. It's about the only negative to having a sequential transmission.
However if you need to change your oil it could exacerbate shifting issues.
Hy Slack,
Thanks for the answer, I will try moving the bike forward or backwards next time it will happen to me, today I just stopped the engine and started it again and it worked.
Thanks,
Alex
Quick question ... I don't need to change the oil right now, it's new, but when I will have to change it, what could I do to prevent more shifting issues?
Keep the correct level, type, and viscosity of oil.
Adjust the clutch cable and lever as described in the periodic maintenance; top and bottom.
If in neutral, release the lever then pull it again fully. This may avoid balking and engage 1st.
Rocking back/forth may also help.
Alex, a lot of newbies have problems finding neutral when stopped (say at lights), but you have the opposite problem.
Try this: snick it into neutral just before you come to a stop, don't wait until you've stopped. It may take a little practise, try just easing the gearlever into neutral just before you come to a halt. (Bike gearboxes LOVE this!) Rocking the bike in neutral isn't going to help you I fear, - that works with the opposite problem.
It's possible your selector is binding because you select neutral when you are stopped and the mechanism can't free itself properly, so when you try to get into gear again it's binding a bit.
Just an idea.
OR, don't ever put the bike in neutral outside your garage!
Keep it in first, clutch pulled in, and keep an eye on the rearview mirrors, so you can see if the car driver behind you noticed you & is slowing down. Also have an escape route prepared.
Paranoia saves lives my friend.
That is what I am doing right now, I don't put the bike in neutral, but from what I know it's not a very good practice for the clutch cable and also for my left hand :))
I will try to put it in neutral before i come to a full stop, I have a feeling that it's not going to be easy but I wil try.
Some people quick-tie the clutch lever for the night, some even for the whole winter(!), so their clutch doesn't stick in the morning (no clunk going into 1st).
Now that, I believe, may not be good for the clutch components, hence I don't do that, but just regular use will not hurt it. Also your left hand could always use a workout.
I try to just leave the bike in gear when I stop too. Sometimes however if I know I have to open my visor and adjust my glasses or I know I am at a stoplight that is going to take forEVER I click into neutral before I stop... it seems to work really well for getting rid of the no shift problem when that light finally turns green :icon_mrgreen:
OH and welcome to the forum! !
Quote from: Atesz792 on April 27, 2015, 02:50:32 AM
OR, don't ever put the bike in neutral outside your garage!
Keep it in first, clutch pulled in, and keep an eye on the rearview mirrors, so you can see if the car driver behind you noticed you & is slowing down. Also have an escape route prepared.
Paranoia saves lives my friend.
That's ignoring the main problem (difficulty engaging gear) only to replace it with another problem (fast-wearing clutch components). Sort out the actual mechanical problem!
Sitting in gear (say at traffic lights) holding the clutch in is by no means good practice, as any number of things can happen that could cause you to inadvertently drop the clutch and see you hurtling right into the path of cross-moving traffic. Deadly habit! Assuming you are in neutral It takes only a fraction of a second to put it into gear and move out of the way of a car coming up behind you. But that's why you need to solve the difficulty getting into gear problem, so you can easily find first gear. No need for paranoia, you just need awareness of ALL the possibilities.
I've always kept the bike in gear at stops and believe it's safer and not a deadly habit. I've survived over 400k miles on 6 bikes that way, 4 Hondas and 2 GS500s and all can be a bit quirky getting into gear occasionally. It's the nature of bike trannys.
I rarely have the bike in neutral outside of the garage, works for me. And it's not a fast wear problem on the GSs either as far as I've experienced. Put 80k miles on my 97 GS and over 100k on my current 02 GS with no clutch or clutch actuating component problems.
Make sure your clutch is properly adjusted with a 3 point adjustment as shown in the shop manual, use good oil of the proper viscosity, and don't overfill.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/jcp8832/GS500clutchadjustment_zps58ca4ce8.jpg)
.... what was I gonna say again? ... oh yeah! ... practice practice practice and more familiarity with this particular quirk always helps. ..
A lot of folks are too tender in action when using the shifter. .. you don't have to Hulk Smash it! .. but it's best to be firm and positive in foot action! .
Yes it is a problem on the gs500. .. and on a number of other bikes. .. but knowing/checking to rule out/correct any mechanical issues with the clutch, shifter and cables. ... I think the main problem is normally new owner user error! ... it's no big drama... just don't baby tap the thing! :thumb:
Hy,
Thanks for the welcome ShowBizWolf, also, thanks for all the answers, I will try everything that was suggested and report back with what worked best for me. Right now I just shift the bike into first gear while I stop, so this way I am not going to disturb any driver that is behind me, if I have any problems shifting into first.
I also tried shifting into neutral while still rolling, just before a full stop, did not manage to do that, I will try again.
I did not buy the bike new, so I don't know when the clutch was last time adjusted with a 3 point adjustment, I will try to do it this weekend.
Thanks again for all the replies, great community out here.
Jack, you've obviously never had a wasp fly up into your helmet whilst sitting at the lights! That's guaranteed to have you involuntarily dropping the clutch as you desperately try to get it out. I've seen blokes accidentally drop the clutch just by absent-mindely reaching to adjust their mirror at the lights. Different strokes eh?
Me? over 50 years riding on about 23 bikes, -(I've never counted up the k's).
I never ever ride the clutch, but that's just me. But I really, really would like to wise up some of our newbie mates before they kill themselves.
No Jools I have never had a wasp inside my helmet but I did catch a small bee in my mouth once while riding. It was under my tongue and flicking my tongue rapidly I managed to get it up and spit it out inside the helmet chin bar and then got it out of there with my right index finger as I came to a stop. Saw it bounce off the tank to confirm it's identity. :icon_lol:
My son now 61 started riding in his teens so he must have about 45 years or so in by now but I've only been at it for 30 years myself. I think that's about it for me as far as riding goes, finished radiation treatments a couple weeks ago and now waiting 2 months till they scan again to see results.
Quote from: gsJack on April 29, 2015, 06:45:03 AM
My son now 61 started riding in his teens so he must have about 45 years or so in by now but I've only been at it for 30 years myself. I think that's about it for me as far as riding goes, finished radiation treatments a couple weeks ago and now waiting 2 months till they scan again to see results.
Get well soon, Jack!
We're counting on you out here :icon_exclaim:
I watched a video last night of a guy accidentally dropping the clutch while sitting at a stop sign. He shot straight forward and T-Boned the side of a semi driving past him at 60 mph. If he had dropped the clutch 1/2 second earlier he would have been dead.
Hope your well soon Jack. You still have a lot of miles to ride.
Unless I know I'm going to be idling for a long period, I leave it in gear with my right foot firmly planted on the brakeS. Knock on wood, no issues thus far.
Sorry to hear that gsJack, hope you will get well soon.
The MSF course in the States teaches us to hold the clutch in at stop lights for a quick escape, a wet clutch can be held in without any damage.
Quote from: Joolstacho on April 29, 2015, 02:53:05 AM
Jack, you've obviously never had a wasp fly up into your helmet whilst sitting at the lights! That's guaranteed to have you involuntarily dropping the clutch as you desperately try to get it out. I've seen blokes accidentally drop the clutch just by absent-mindely reaching to adjust their mirror at the lights. Different strokes eh?
Me? over 50 years riding on about 23 bikes, -(I've never counted up the k's).
I never ever ride the clutch, but that's just me. But I really, really would like to wise up some of our newbie mates before they kill themselves.
Remember what hapenned to addidas guy! We must always be ready to gtf out of any position asap. We can't always see the idiots but if we do we must be able to act fast.
I do both clutch situ depending on where I am. . Its a bit like the loud pipes/oil type/ mods or stock theories though... never gonna be a consensus eh! Lol
So, I've been out riding tonight, and because it was not crowded i tried a frew things, first of all, putting the bike in neutral while it's still rolling, did not manage that, I probably need a lot more practice to do it, second, at the red light, after I put the bike in neutral, moving the bike back and forward, just a little bit, this worked, I manage to shift into first gear every time.
I will test again tomorrow, I want to try this when I am at a red light and the bike does not want to shift into first, I want to see if moving the bike back and forward will help, tonight I just moved it and after that I try to shift it into first, so it is not a valid test.
Thanks for all the help, and good advices.
Just needs a little bit of pressure down on the gearlever from 2nd gear position towards neutral position, just as you pull in the clutch to stop, in the last foot or two before you come to a stop.
It's is so easy once you get the knack of it you'll be able do it without thinking.
Rocking the bike back and forth while you are stopped in neutral will not make any difference at all (assuming your gearbox isn't 'binding' in neutral). That technique is used to help get into neutral when it's in gear (usually with the motor stopped, though you can rock it on the clutch with motor running to achieve the same thing).
Yep, recover quickly Jack, everyone on the board values your experience ... I've just had heart valve surgery (came out of the blue, totally unexpected) and I'm pretty pissed off that I can't get back on the bike yet!)
:cheers:
Quote from: Atesz792 on April 27, 2015, 02:50:32 AM
OR, don't ever put the bike in neutral outside your garage!
Keep it in first, clutch pulled in, and keep an eye on the rearview mirrors, so you can see if the car driver behind you noticed you & is slowing down. Also have an escape route prepared.
Paranoia saves lives my friend.
I firmly believe this is the right practice. I have never put the bike into neutral at a stop. And I've accidentally dropped the clutch while at a stop and I haven't been taken more than a few inches forward, not feet into an intersection.
Well there are opposing views here. BUT here's the ACTUAL thing: If you can't get into gear easily from neutral OR you can't get into neutral easily from gear within, say, half a second YOU NEED TO FIX THE PROBLEM!
Because certain circumstances may bring you unstuck and be potentially very dangerous with either problem.
Personally I cringe at the thought of recommending to young learner riders that they don't need to worry about finding neutral at lights. - Some people seem to have had a common-sense bypass!
And just because some misguided, politically correct, so-called 'educators' recommend something, that doesn't make it right.
(Where shall we start calling out 'so-called experts'? - I'll maybe start with all those 'brilliant' economists who didn't foresee the '08 GFC coming). :icon_lol:
To each his own I guess. I just don't see why anyone would need to be in neutral while on the road.
Does anyone who drives a manual transmission car sit at stop lights with their car in 1st the whole time, foot on the clutch? You don't want to get rear ended in a cage either!
:dunno_black:
Do you people who claim to never go into to neutral really sit there in 1st, watching your mirrors, after there are already 5 or 10 cars sitting stopped behind you?
I couldn't imagine *never ever evaaaaah* clicking into neutral... but especially after a long ride... finally coming to a stop at a light or a stop sign I like to sit back and stretch a little bit, look at the scenery wherever I am yanno and then get rolling again.
On the way to work this morning, I found myself at a stoplight, in "N" holding the clutch in...I think the coffee hadn't kicked in yet?
Anybody that has ever had to pull a transmission to change a Throw Out bearing will always use "N" in a car/truck :thumb:
Quote from: Slack on May 01, 2015, 04:56:16 AM
Does anyone who drives a manual transmission car sit at stop lights with their car in 1st the whole time, foot on the clutch? You don't want to get rear ended in a cage either!
:dunno_black:
Do you people who claim to never go into to neutral really sit there in 1st, watching your mirrors, after there are already 5 or 10 cars sitting stopped behind you?
I generally have always held the clutch in with the car in gear on a manual shift car at stop signs/lights since I started driving. Same on hills with foot on brake or just holding car with clutch and foot on gas ready to go. Never have had any clutch repair, throw out bearing or plates, on any car I bought new but have replaced clutch once on cars I bought used. Clutches love me.
Due to advanced age and weakening legs I always hold the bike with 2 legs when stopped, particularly on hills. I hold the front brake with fingers and work throttle with thumb for startups on hills. This has led me to taking rides with never having the bike in neutral. In gear all the way, garage back to garage. You can do it if you have to.
And it's not a claim, it's a statement of fact that I've always held the clutch in with the bike in gear at stops since I started riding unless I expected to be there a long time like in traffic jams, etc. No I don't sit looking in the mirrors at stops but if I hear a screech I check it.
Quote from: Slack on May 01, 2015, 04:56:16 AM
Does anyone who drives a manual transmission car sit at stop lights with their car in 1st the whole time, foot on the clutch? You don't want to get rear ended in a cage either!
:dunno_black:
Do you people who claim to never go into to neutral really sit there in 1st, watching your mirrors, after there are already 5 or 10 cars sitting stopped behind you?
Yes I keep my car in first as well. No matter the circumstances, car or bike, 1 car behind me or 10 cars, I'm always aware of what's going on around me.
You guys must have never driven/ridden a vehicle with a
really stiff clutch? I've driven vehicles that I couldn't physically keep the clutch disengaged for more then 20-30 seconds without muscle cramps. And I'm a strong guy. My wife couldn't even pull the clutch lever on my KLR before I modified it.
Quote from: ragecage23 on May 01, 2015, 09:57:18 AM
Yes I keep my car in first as well. No matter the circumstances, car or bike, 1 car behind me or 10 cars, I'm always aware of what's going on around me.
I completely agree! It's always smart, no matter the task, to be aware of your surroundings.
But, keeping a vehicle in 1st doesn't help keep you aware of your surroundings. If you have full situational awareness you will never be caught in an instance where you need to slam it into 1st to get out of the way. With awareness you can see a car approaching from behind, knock it into 1st, watch the car stop, kick it back to N.
By leaving it in 1st (for safety reasons, not reasons like Jack listed) you are admitting that you don't always watch your back, and you want to be able to quickly dump the clutch should you hear squealing tires and look in your mirror as a car is screeching up behind you. That's the only situation where it will help - when you aren't paying attention like you should be.
Quote from: Slack on May 01, 2015, 01:50:56 PM
Quote from: ragecage23 on May 01, 2015, 09:57:18 AM
Yes I keep my car in first as well. No matter the circumstances, car or bike, 1 car behind me or 10 cars, I'm always aware of what's going on around me.
I completely agree! It's always smart, no matter the task, to be aware of your surroundings.
By leaving it in 1st (for safety reasons, not reasons like Jack listed) you are admitting that you don't always watch your back, and you want to be able to quickly dump the clutch should you hear squealing tires and look in your mirror as a car is screeching up behind you. That's the only situation where it will help - when you aren't paying attention like you should be.
Again I don't agree. By leaving it in first I eliminate a step into getting out of danger.
+1 Slack.
There's not going to be any resolution of this is there?
BUT!!!
Remember the OP was about not being able to get into first easily. The point is that whatever you believe re: neutral or gear at lights, for safety's sake YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET BOTH INTO GEAR AND INTO NEUTRAL when stopped. (Sorry to shout!) So fix that problem.
Quote from: Joolstacho on May 01, 2015, 05:34:32 PM
There's not going to be any resolution of this is there?
There never is in any of these types of threads (N at stops, oil type, etc), but in years of surfing motorcycle forums I had never given my personal opinion that IF your paying attention then you have plenty of time to switch to 1st, so there is no need to sit there in 1st. . . Aren't we all entitled to share?
Well for the OP, when in neutral I just give the shift lever a moderate slam and it'll go in everytime. If I can't get neutral I will rock the bike forwards and backwards while applying upwards pressure on the shift lever.
Do whatever you feel is comfortable for you and a stoplight.
Err, missed the point again!
The OP had difficulty getting into gear from neutral (he's at lights... his motor is running so rocking the bike in neutral has no effect at all, that works getting neutral from a gear). He has a mechanical problem that needs sorting eh? The fact that you and I don't have his problem is immaterial... (we can get neutral and we can get first to take off).
Quote from: axexandru on April 25, 2015, 12:12:13 PM
when I stop at a red light, and put the bike in neutral, I have some problems shifting into first gear, or second, sometimes it helps if I give it some throttle, but today it simply did not want to shift into first or second. I stoped the engine and after I started it again it worked. Any ideas?
Thanks and have safe journeys.
Alex
Quote from: ragecage23 on May 01, 2015, 08:02:59 PM
Well for the OP, when in neutral I just give the shift lever a moderate slam and it'll go in everytime.
Or you know, you could actually read what people are saying instead of creating a fuss.
Ohhh dear!
Ya got to laugh eh? Ragecage you're quoting your misguided self to try to justify your misguided argument. That takes your breath away doesn't it?
Get the point, we are not discussing whether YOU can "give the shift lever a moderate slam" - don't you get it, it's the OP problem that we are discussing... HE can't get the gear he needs from neutral... (it's not all about you, what you can or can't do!)
Anyway buddy, it seems you just NEED to have the last word, so now go for it.
OK, no need to argue or to SHOUT :)
When I have this problem, it does not matter if I give the shift lever a moderate, or a hard slam, it simply does not want to go into first. So, is this a mechanical problem ?
I will first try to do a 3 point adjustment on the clutch, see if that helps, if not, I will probably take it to a mechanic.
Thans
Alex
Sorry this topic has got off the point Alex. It's exactly your point I've been trying to get at.
You should be able to get into first easily from neutral, or from 1st or 2nd gear into neutral, with the engine running or without.
That clutch adjustment is the first step, see how you go with that. If that doesn't help I'd do an oil change, perhaps you aren't running the right grade oil? Possible clutch issues are: clutchplates wear, or clutchspring weakening (with consequent over-adjustment -not enough freeplay). There is the possibility of gearbox problems, but unless your bike has been stuffed around by a PO this would be a very rare problem I reckon. IMHO Suzi gearboxes are pretty bullet-proof in my experience. Question #1: Can you get neutral easily when you're in gear? Question #2: When you have the problem getting into gear from neutral, does it make any difference if the motor is running or not? Adjust your chain, that can help. Check that it's not something like your gearshift lever being positioned on the shaft spline such that you don't get full travel.
You may have mechanical issues, but I really think it's learning the technique to smoothly use a sequential transmission (as I said right off, reply #1). As others have said shifting into N just before a stop will make it easier to select 1st, vs stopping in 1st switching to N and then back to 1st. I normally go to N from 2nd when stopping, but not always. I remember having a hard time learning the muscle memory to get into N when I first started riding. It also helps if you shift the bike right after pulling the clutch. It's not like a car, where you can clutch, wait, shift, wait, let out the clutch. It should be a fluid movement, your hand squeezes the clutch lever and by the time the lever is back to the bar you're releasing it again. If this doesn't work then roll a few inches and try shifting.
I think that if this were a mechanical problem it would happen every time you stopped. But, if I recall you said it was very sporadic.
Anytime anybody has shifting issues the first thing that comes to mind is the clutch adjustment, then shifting technique and last would be the correct oil. Clutch plates not releasing or dragging leaves the cogs in the transmission under a preload, this is what causes the bulk of shifting issues when you are having problems either getting into or out of Neutral.
Next time you change your oil, take your bike out for at least a half an hours ride to get the oil good and hot, as soon as you get back take all the freeplay out at the lever end then zip tie the lever back to the grip over night. This lets oil get in between the clutch plates and might help the situation, it has for me many times throughout the years.
(http://home.comcast.net/~stykers/tyback.jpg)
I was trying to use my experience to help him out. I've tried to put in my two cents. I see its not "worthy" around here. So good luck axexandru, you seem to have some masters here helping you out.
:) I don't want to start a war here, every opinion it's very important to me as it comes from people that have ridden more km then I have. Where I have done a MSF, I learnd that at a stop light you need to put the bike in neutral. I wil see what is the best think for me, what I want to find out now is if this is a mechanical problem or not.
Yes Slack, it does not happen every time, it is sporadic, and I hope you are right and it's not a mechanical issue and I just have to learn how to do this correctly.
Joolstacho, for question #1, yes I can find neutral just fine, that is not a problem, question #2 the problem only appears after a few km, never when I start the bike for the first time. When I have this problem, it helps if I stop the engine and start it again.
Thanks.
Quote from: ragecage23 on May 02, 2015, 10:22:34 AM
I was trying to use my experience to help him out. I've tried to put in my two cents. I see its not "worthy" around here. So good luck axexandru, you seem to have some masters here helping you out.
We value your experience. But, come on now, you have to admit that you yelling at yourself was funny :D
All of these comments hold some validity, and it might be that a small bit of all of them are what is needed to solve the problem.
You're all right. My attempt at helping was hilarious.
I understood what you meant rage, also understood what everyone meant.. not saying you didn't! ...
Hopefully the wee wee match is done with and everyone. .. really Everyone! can accept that the neutral/gear thing is up to personal taste. .. and there are relevant safety/danger issues with either!
Now... why isn't it going into gear? .. perhaps mechanical, perhaps user, perhaps oil weight/type? ... op said it was fresh oil so ok, what specific oil? ..
For mechanical issues, is there any Other unusual behavior in the gear/clutch system?, excess chatters, stiff levers/cables? , spongy accel feel? ..
Maybe it has been mentioned. On tapa/phone at moment and it's a pain to scan back thru
Hy Janx,
The oil is 10w40, fully syntethic, made by Repsol. I did today a 3 step adjusment on the clutch, and it appears to work better now, did not get to do a longer ride on it because of the rain. I don't see any other unusual behavior in clutch - gear system.
Thanks,
Alex
If it's working smooth then its a win! .. good job!
Thanks Slack,
I hope this was it, will take it out for a longer ride to see if it happens again. Got to say that it's a great feeling fixing it yourself :)
Next, the air filter, i got to change it, it's really dirty, the question is, do I need some kind of oil for the air filter, I have found on the net a lot of products like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/99-5050-K-N-AIR-FILTER-CLEANER-OIL-RECHARGER-KIT-Jays-/290967157959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43befe7cc7
Thanks,
Alex
Alex in spite of this discussion having got... err.. a bit warmish, I'm sure all our hearts are in the right place. GStwin is a good little brotherhood IMO.
And it's great to see your pride in having fixed your problem, (well, fingers crossed!) - you will get immense satisfaction and save a bundle of money in the future by DIYing, so keep at it. There's a wealth of knowledge and experience here, (including diverse opinions) and it's freely shared.
BUT... Don't get the idea that your problems are over though my friend!!! (I just spent a day and a half tracking down an obscure electrical problem, only to have my mate wander by and pick it up in a couple of seconds. And I've been doing this stuff for getting on for 40 years, - goes to show that you are never an expert!
(Although the said mate, who is a qualified motorcycle mechanic :bowdown: and who can spot a missing split-pin from 50 metres comes pretty close!)
in reply to the original thread, I find it strange.
Most of my bikes have shown problems shifting into gear when cold, but not when hot.
Usually when standing still and wanting to shift into gear, only needed to release the clutch a bit.
If you want to get into gear you could either roll it, or let the clutch slip a bit, until it bites :icon_mrgreen:
But I've never really had problems with my GS, other than when it's still cold, and I have to shift it in neutral to open the gate, and shift it back into gear...
Most of the time I have the opposite problem; getting it into neutral. It often shifts from one to 2, or from 2nd to 1st, skipping the neutral gear... Though the GS is ok on that, the Honda Rebel is a lot worse in getting into neutral.