I thought I could just take a photo and rotate it but it doesn't work for some reason, maybe perspective.
Anyhoo, I was wondering what lean angle a standard naked GS will be when the stock footpads begin to touch the tarmac?
Farther than I'm willing to lean it over so far...except that time I grabbed front brake while pulling into my gravel driveway :icon_lol:
its not the bikes, it's the tires. street tires are generally rated at 1.1g's that gives you about a 45 degree lean angle with some margin of error.
Don't know exactly, probably closer to around 35-40° or so, the GS doesn't have amazing ground clearance, especially not with my weight on it :icon_rolleyes:
Of course proper body positioning can really compensate for that.
I lean mine over very low and have never scraped the pegs. Stock Battleass. The thing is, aside from a track, I haven't found a public turn where I actually need to get that low anyway. It's more about getting my body down low and towards the front, and trying to keep the bike more upright, so the front patch is still wide, and the weight more even as I accelerate. A few pics, for what it's worth:
https://imgur.com/a/H4D692u
https://imgur.com/a/ld1WKoQ
@Darkstar,
OK thanks that is useful information. The reason that I'm asking is not that I'm wishing to grind my pegs down on the street, it's just that, as mentioned earlier upthread, I am already aware that a 45º angle will maintain an approximate g force of 1, meaning I need not worry about lowsiding on a good surface and if I am to believe you tube that on a good quality wet asphalt that has been washed clean that a 45º angle will still be .9g!
I am wishing to gain more confidence riding relaxed in wet weather, not trying to see how far I can lean in wet weather. So I was hoping to try and get a feel of when I am approaching say 40º so I can get a good feel of what that degree of lean is like when riding. Because I suspect that I get too tense at much less lean angles than this in the wet unnecessarily.
So I was hoping to practice a bit in dry weather. However I find it difficult to be able to tell, I suspect that my lean angle is less steep that it seems. Much like how a gradient appears to be steeper than it is when climbing up and more shallow than what it is climbing down.
The pegs confused me because they are designed to sweep back a very long way, making me think that maybe scraping them would be pretty ordinary. But it appears to not be the case.
So really what I'd like to know is how to be able to tell what a 40º lean angle feels like on the bike. I don't want to find out the hard way. But I also don't want to be unnecessarily nervous.
thx.
I did a rider training course a few years ago, and they did an interesting test - during lunch the guys secretly marked a bit of the sides of our tires - that we couldn't see when parked - with white chalk. After some procedures they came around and could see how far we'd be leaning over. Obviously this doesn't relate directly to degrees but was interesting see how close to the edge of the tire side we came to.
Quote from: user11235813 on April 27, 2018, 08:37:08 PM
I am wishing to gain more confidence
Reducing fear is a very good thing for me. To help with this, I take small road cones out into a a nearby empty lot, it has good pavement and nobody uses it. I lay out a figure eight path or whatever, and go at it, increasing my speed each time i go around. It's a great way to push yourself and get a feel for what the limits are.
I don't know the actual lean angle, but it will lean farther than you think. Touching the pegs down is just an indicator - it will lean more. Likely to the edge of the tires given proper suspension setup.
Quote from: user11235813 on April 27, 2018, 08:37:08 PM
I am wishing to gain more confidence riding relaxed in wet weather, not trying to see how far I can lean in wet weather. So I was hoping to try and get a feel of when I am approaching say 40º so I can get a good feel of what that degree of lean is like when riding. Because I suspect that I get too tense at much less lean angles than this in the wet unnecessarily.
Something that helped my wet-weather confidence, especially after my wet-weather low-side, was watching MotoGP in the rain and seeing how they take their corners. Spoiler alert, it's still at insane speeds while dragging knees. If they can do it at 100+ MPH on track tires, I figured it's not a big deal doing it at 30, 40, 50 on all-weather tires.
But one thing that may seem counter-intuitive is that riding with a more aggressive posture will actually make the motorcycle more stable, and can be of great benefit in lower traction conditions. Understand that the more YOU lean, the less the bike has to. Take the same turn at the same speed on the same line, one time staying "stiff" on the bike and one time leaning into the turn, and you may scrape peg when you're stiff and not when you're leaning.
It's the same reason I never bought into the whole "chicken strip" game. You can have awful posture and really get the bike low, or you can have excellent posture and not lean the bike as much, but be at the same speed either way, and the former will have a smaller chicken-strip.
These pictures are poor but they illustrate the point very well. These two riders are *probably* taking about the same type of turn at the same general speed, but the above rider is leaning OUT of the turn while the second rider is being "stiff". The lean angle of the bike of the first rider is way steeper.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/KEfFfH.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmKEfFfHj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/4kVbUg.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pn4kVbUgj)
There is a way to "lean in" without making it seem like you're trying to be Street-Rossi. It's quite simple.
Start with your feet. If you haven't been riding on the balls of your feet, start. If you have been, then good.
You want to move your outside foot onto the arch for the duration of the turn, this sort of turns your hips into the direction of the turn. Try this right now in your desk chair, with your feet flat on the floor try and pull your left foot back and push your right foot forward. Which way did your hips try to move? Hopefully it was left.
With your hips wanting to move left, you should turn your shoulders as well. Just a little, don't twist around, just get your body facing into the turn.
Your arms should be relaxed. Like, super relaxed. Can't stress this enough, stiff arms is a stiff bike and a stiff bike doesn't flow with the road, relax your arms. Your hands should be relaxed as well, holding on just tight enough to maintain control. Truth be told I rarely have a totally enclosed grip with my left hand, right hand has to be for the throttle, but the looser the better.
And the last bit is to lean forward and "in", imagining touching your chin to the mirror. You don't want to really lay on the bike, just get a gentle lean going. If it helps, gripping the inside handgrip "like a screwdriver" will naturally drop your elbow down and place your upper body in the correct position, but it's not necessary for street riding and as long as you're
relaxed the upper body lean will feel natural.
And that's it. No knees out, no butt movement, no scoffs from onlookers, just feet offset, hips and shoulders turned in, lean a little forward to "kiss the mirror", and relax.
I'm a little out of time right now but if I can I'll try and find/make a picture to upload later if it's not super clear or feels really awkward for some reason.
Well put, Watcher. :cheers:
One thing I would add: Use the heel plate, that weird piece of metal above the footpeg. With the balls of your feet on the pegs press the heel of the outside foot against the heel plate. Doing so will help stabilize you in the corner and contributes to smooth corner exit. When you get used to using the heel plates they can be helpful in steering the bike.
One does not have to hang off a bike to get around a corner fast. However, hanging off provides a significant advantage of being able adjust the lean angle if required while maintaining your line. If you're sitting upright and leaned all the over you can't lean any more.
If you're really interested in cornering "A Twist of the Wrist" is a great read.
BTW, that guy on the red/black bike is a poster child for how NOT to corner - he's a crash waiting to happen. :)
Quote from: alpo on April 28, 2018, 01:02:54 PM
BTW, that guy on the red/black bike is a poster child for how NOT to corner - he's a crash waiting to happen. :)
Haha, you can say that again!
Never seen Rossi do it like that.
Given the angle of the bike and the fact he is almost still upright it's fair to say he is putting up a fight!
Fwiw, there are apps for your phone that keep track of your lean angle. So if you have a RAM mount or something on your handlebars you can keep track of how much lean you're getting on your rides.
THE best thing you can do if possible is to ride with other people, especially more experienced riders, then you'll get an idea of optimal speeds and lean angles through bends.
The actual angle can be misleading because of road camber, winds etc.
And personally I think balls of the feet on footrests is a gimmick which leads to less stability especially for inexperienced riders, (very different to racers), plus you have to move your feet to get to the brake or gearshift, again, not good for the inexperienced.
Balls of the feet on the pegs is not a gimmick. The bike is much more controllable when the balls of the feet are on the pegs.
The inexperienced tend to cover the rear brake pedal with their right foot, leading to rear wheel lock-up and low sides. The inexperienced can get better by riding properly. :cheers:
I've wondered about that "balls of the feet" as well. What's the rationale? Is it supposed to give you more leverage to stomp on the inside peg?
Depending on bike geometry, I've found scooching my foot back to get the ball on the peg forces my knee to flex more, which is uncomfortable.
And having to shift back and forth for braking / shifting is a distraction, no?
Think about standing and trying to move quickly. Is it faster when your feet are flat, or when you are balancing on your toes? It's the same premise with riding on the balls of your feet. "Loading the pegs" is a well known practice and is easiest when using the balls of your feet. When the arches of your feet are on the pegs it is painful. Plus, putting the balls of your feet on the pegs allows you to press your heels onto the heel plate, which is essential to controlling the bike in corners.
Quote from: Joolstacho on April 28, 2018, 03:30:07 PM
And personally I think balls of the feet on footrests is a gimmick which leads to less stability especially for inexperienced riders, (very different to racers), plus you have to move your feet to get to the brake or gearshift, again, not good for the inexperienced.
Quote from: alpo on April 28, 2018, 03:49:28 PM
Balls of the feet on the pegs is not a gimmick. The bike is much more controllable when the balls of the feet are on the pegs.
The inexperienced tend to cover the rear brake pedal with their right foot, leading to rear wheel lock-up and low sides. The inexperienced can get better by riding properly. :cheers:
This.
Think of how you drive. Do you "hover" over the pedals continuously? What about the gear-shifter, do you keep hold of it? Generally you only cover a control if you expect to use the control, if you aren't using the control then don't cover it. That's why so many cars have "dead pedals" to the left of the clutch, your foot steps onto the clutch, your foot uses the clutch, your foot steps off the clutch, otherwise you have a tendency to not only fatigue faster but also wear the clutch inadvertently. Same with the brake/gas, you're either on it, covering it in anticipation, or off it. Same with the shifter, if you aren't shifting you should be hands on the wheel.
A poor habit I often have to break new riders of is constantly covering the brakes. That's fine if you expect to stop, but SO many people try to operate the throttle while covering the brake and it's incredibly difficult to do with any semblance of control, and as Alpo says it leads to a tendency for riders to panic-brake.
You're the most stable and the most "athletic" on the bike on the balls of your feet. You should step onto the brake to use the brake, then step back off onto the peg. You should step onto/under the shifter to use the shifter, then step back onto the peg. You use the clutch then go back to the grip. You use the brake then go back to the throttle.
If you're doing otherwise you're either missing some finer aspects of control or potentially setting yourself up for error.
Some of the best techniques are born of the race-track, one would be unwise to dismiss them as "go fast only" types of behaviors.
Quote from: alpo on April 28, 2018, 03:59:14 PM
Think about standing and trying to move quickly. Is it faster when your feet are flat, or when you are balancing on your toes?
That's not the most apt comparison, as on a motorcycle we're not shuffling our feet to move in space. Our feet are static (unless shifting/braking) on the pegs, whether it's on the ball or the arch.
But I know it's the thing to do, as all the pros do it. The one point that is clear is that it buys your feet some more ground clearance. The rest seems debatable.
Any other explanations out there?
This site makes a good argument for keeping your feet on the arch, unless you're riding at the track.
https://motorbikewriter.com/where-to-put-your-feet-on-the-footpegs/
"On a racetrack, you know where the corners are, you know there is no approaching traffic or livestock wandering across the road and you even know where the braking markers are for the corners.
So you can afford to put the balls of your feet on the pegs to turn and control the bike, knowing exactly when to move your feet forward to shift gears or hit the brakes.
But in the real world you don't know when those emergencies will arise."
Racers use the ball of their foot essentially for more clearance and to save toe sliders; i.e. to get their feet out of the way. Some contort their inside foot so the sole is against the frame so the rear brake and the gear lever can be operated with the side of the foot. And because most use a race-pattern gear shift and now the ubiquitous speed shifter, you only need to tap the gear lever down to hook a higher gear while at an extreme lean angle.
On the road you can get just as much pressure on the outside peg with your instep. And the controls are, as you say, more easily accessible.
Quote from: Endopotential on April 28, 2018, 06:40:18 PM
"On a racetrack, you know where the corners are, you know there is no approaching traffic or livestock wandering across the road and you even know where the braking markers are for the corners.
So you can afford to put the balls of your feet on the pegs to turn and control the bike, knowing exactly when to move your feet forward to shift gears or hit the brakes.
But in the real world you don’t know when those emergencies will arise."
I think it's a bogus argument unless you also concede that:
- You should constantly "tickle" the clutch lever and never fully grip the bar.
- You should leave 2-fingers on the brake lever at all times and only use your ring/pinky/thumb to control the throttle.
- You also use your left foot to brake when driving an automatic car.
It takes just as much time to roll off the throttle and reach for the brake lever as it does to step off the peg and onto the brake pedal. If you're doing one and not the other you're not really at any sort of advantage. Shifting isn't usually something I'd say you require immediately in an emergency, either. I'll say this while stating it's important to be stopped in 1st in case of a rearward threat, but you can be on the brakes FIRST and then add your shifting.
Also, unexpected things happen at the track, too, unless you're racing solo. Those motoGP guys seem capable of avoiding crashed out riders just fine and at much MUCH higher speeds than you typically see on the roadway. They stand to benefit from a proper braking and avoidance technique as much as the average street rider.
Once again, I'll advocate to cover the controls if you expect to use them. For example, approaching a busy intersection. I usually roll off, tickle the brake and clutch, and have my feet set on the pedals, but once I'm through the tricky spot I'm back on the grips and back on the pegs, because for the average road I'm steering and moving my weight around MORE than I'm using the brakes (have you SEEN the condition of the roads out here, lol!).
I cover my levers at all times, because it's just comfortable. Never once had an issue with panic grabbing in an emergency. The only control I don't cover 24/7 is my back brake because it's easy to accidentally be putting weight on it.
I say do what works for you.
I thought Rossi and most racers hang off to the inside of the turn, grazing your knee puck on the curve but having less angle on the bike - because that allows a steeper effecitve angle of lean - because its the CG that counts for centrifugal force but if you lean the bike further you'd hit hard parts and break traction.
I dunno though, I suck at riding hard (unless its in a straight line).
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: The Buddha on April 29, 2018, 06:13:39 AM
{snip}
Cool.
Buddha.
That's right.
It's not all about ground clearance, though. The more vertical the bike is the more available traction there is from the tires.
That's useful knowledge for any riding situation.
Quote from: Watcher on April 28, 2018, 10:40:02 PM
Also, unexpected things happen at the track, too, unless you're racing solo. Those motoGP guys seem capable of avoiding crashed out riders just fine and at much MUCH higher speeds than you typically see on the roadway. They stand to benefit from a proper braking and avoidance technique as much as the average street rider.
This.
Even more unexpected things happen on the street. When I ride I'm always thinking about traffic around me: They're out to kill me. I can't count the times people have pulled out in front of me. Being able to react quickly has saved my life.
I admit to covering the levers most of the time. It's habit and also keeps me from having a "death grip" on the bars. One finger on the front brake is all I need to stop immediately. Two fingers means an instant stoppie. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: alpo on April 28, 2018, 03:59:14 PM
Think about standing and trying to move quickly. Is it faster when your feet are flat, or when you are balancing on your toes? It's the same premise with riding on the balls of your feet. "Loading the pegs" is a well known practice and is easiest when using the balls of your feet. When the arches of your feet are on the pegs it is painful. Plus, putting the balls of your feet on the pegs allows you to press your heels onto the heel plate, which is essential to controlling the bike in corners.
Sorry but all that 'rationale' is quite misleading. Plenty of erroneous ideas going on here!
The actual point is that resting the balls of the feet on the pegs ADDS one more point of flexibility (the foot/toe joints) that can CAUSE instability.
When you ride, you don't MOVE your feet to help control the bike, you actually just PRESS, like you do with your knees against the tank. It's MUCH harder to press with the balls of your feet. Try it. Compare.
And what footwear are you wearing on your feet to make it "painful" to rest the arch of your foot?
Also, riders should have INSTANT access to the rear brake. Moving the foot in an emergency just adds potential instability JUST when you don't need it.
There's no correlation at all with locking up the rear brake. If you have problems with this position your back brake lever is set too high. Change that.
Quote from: Joolstacho on April 30, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
Also, riders should have INSTANT access to the rear brake. Moving the foot in an emergency just adds potential instability JUST when you don't need it.
There's no correlation at all with locking up the rear brake. If you have problems with this position your back brake lever is set too high. Change that.
You don't need the rear brake. "Instant access" is a guarantee of failure on the street unless you REALLY know how to modulate the rear brake. The majority of your stopping power is in the front brake.
Quote from: Joolstacho on April 30, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
The actual point is that resting the balls of the feet on the pegs ADDS one more point of flexibility (the foot/toe joints) that can CAUSE instability.
When you ride, you don't MOVE your feet to help control the bike, you actually just PRESS, like you do with your knees against the tank. It's MUCH harder to press with the balls of your feet. Try it. Compare.
Being on the balls of your feet is not the same as being on your toes, unless if you're speaking colloquially of "being on your toes", but being on your arches and being on the balls of your feet have the same amount of joints and flexibility, but you have more control when you're on the balls of your feet.
You don't really press on your footpegs to do anything. Your footpegs are a support for you to use, not a control. You're weight pressing down on one side of the bike or the other has incredibly little effect on anything, watch this.
https://youtu.be/JWuTcJcqAng?t=31s (https://youtu.be/JWuTcJcqAng?t=31s)
Moving your body weight from side to side DOES have an effect on motorcycle dynamics, though, but that comes from changing your body position, not just pressing on the pegs. Your whole body needs to move, and your whole body is more able to move when you're on the balls of your feet.
The whole "think about standing and trying to move quickly" concept IS the point here. You are on the balls of your feet not because it increases your control over the bike, but it increases the control over your BODY and through this can improve motorcycle handling.
Quote from: Joolstacho on April 30, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
And what footwear are you wearing on your feet to make it "painful" to rest the arch of your foot?
A lot of "normal" footwear has inadequate arch support. Maybe not pain, but I get more fatigue over time if I'm on my arches, especially if I'm wearing just my every day "duty-boots" or my moto-shoes. A proper pair of motorcycle shoes/boots with rigid shanks will ultimately be more supportive when placed on a peg, arch or not.
Quote from: Joolstacho on April 30, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
Also, riders should have INSTANT access to the rear brake. Moving the foot in an emergency just adds potential instability JUST when you don't need it.
There's no correlation at all with locking up the rear brake. If you have problems with this position your back brake lever is set too high. Change that.
Riders have access to the rear brake just as quickly as they do the front brake. If you are covering your rear I expect you to be also covering your front. If you're not covering the brakes I expect you should be in a posture best suited to carrying on at speed. Such a posture should be all four fingers around the throttle, left hand on the grip, knees against the tank, and on the balls of your feet.
Moving your foot isn't a source of instability. You're locked onto the bike with your knees and you're sitting on the saddle, you're super stable in this position. You could lift your feet completely off the pegs and still be stable in this position, but once it comes time to move your body position you're best able to do so if you're on the balls of your feet, whether that means counter-weighting, changing your seat position, hanging-off, whatever.
At the end of the day you can listen to me or not. If you want to label me an armchair expert or a faceless nobody on the internet that's up to you, but I would hope my certification as a trainer has some gravity to it.
I don't teach dangerous techniques. I have a career and a reputation to uphold.
Seems like some people in here need to watch Twist of the Wrist II...
Watcher is right.
I really appreciate this discussion. During my training class I was on a GROM and I was floored with how hard you could lean it in a turn.
Couple of comments specific only to me I guess:
1. if being on the balls of your feet puts your knee at an uncomfortable bend, then the real solution is to move the peg forward or sit further back on the seat, I think. I personally wouldn't mind if the peg was 1.5" forward and 1" lower because I have long legs and feel quite cramped on the bike as it is.
2. The terms "press the inside peg" or "press the inside handlebar" are more for training you to do weight transfer which causes you to naturally shift your body weight, not really literally to "press". You can't physically put pressure without weight shift. This is just a technical habit-builder kind of like any other physical mechanics training. IMHO.
3. I have a roundabout in my neighborhood that is unfortunately situated on sort of the sides of where a couple of hills come together making almost half of it off-camber. I find it very, very difficult to get the bike leaned enough to take that off-camber part of the turn at much more than walking speed because the tires really want to slip and more than once I've had to catch it. I can around that turn a lot faster in a car. Something to be said for four tires on the ground and multi-link suspension keeping a 9" contact patch flat on the ground.
4. The biggest thing keeping me from leaning more and taking ordinary road curves faster is uncertainty about the road surface. I know I can lean the bike and take turns much quicker but around here the twisty roads also have crummy surface with lots of patches and often have gravel or sand on the road. My fear is I'll get into a turn too fast and run into some gravel or a patch that upsets the suspension that I couldn't see when entering the turn.
Quote from: mr72 on May 01, 2018, 06:54:46 AM
I really appreciate this discussion. During my training class I was on a GROM and I was floored with how hard you could lean it in a turn.
I've taken to using our taller bikes (usually our KLX250SM) when I do curve demonstrations and I do them a little "hot" so the lean angle is really exaggerated. I used to do the demo on whatever bike was easiest to get to in line, and occasionally we'd have a student with no cornering confidence that we have to really coach along. It's not that difficult to coach technique, but it's really hard to coach confidence. If the student doesn't trust their tires or the ability of the bike to lean, you can tell them to lean more or press harder all you want and they won't do it.
Since using the supermoto it seems the number of people who completely distrust the bike decreased.
Quote from: mr72 on May 01, 2018, 06:54:46 AM
2. The terms "press the inside peg" or "press the inside handlebar" are more for training you to do weight transfer which causes you to naturally shift your body weight, not really literally to "press". You can't physically put pressure without weight shift. This is just a technical habit-builder kind of like any other physical mechanics training. IMHO.
For "press the peg" I agree. When we teach tight turns from a stop we suggest "pressing down on the outside peg" to help "weight the bike" and prevent it from tipping too far into the turn. It works, but not from the pressure of your foot. When students do this they invariably counter-weight with their upper body, and THAT is what balances the bike.
For "press the inside handlebar" I completely disagree. That is what you're doing, you're pressing the inside handlebar. You're not pressing it "down" to get the bike to lean, but you are pressing it "forward" along the steering axis and that steers the motorcycle. It's the concept of counter-steering, you aren't
turning the bars in the direction of the curve, you're
pressing the bars in the direction of the curve.
Quote from: Watcher on May 01, 2018, 12:24:13 PM
For "press the peg" I agree. ...
For "press the inside handlebar" I completely disagree.
Fair enough. I was talking actually about the "press the inside handlebar" which applies to mountain biking, not road motorcycling. You do this on a mountain bike in a low-speed turn to improve front wheel traction by encouraging weight transfer to the corner of the bike where it needs it. It helps the edge knobs on the tire to bite and keep the bike from washing out.
Likewise on a mountain bike you always weight the outside pedal in a turn unless you plan to crash basically immediately. Having 80-90% of the combined vehicle/rider weight be in the rider really teaches you how to move your weight quite rapidly.
On a road bicycle it's even moreso, biggest difference is you have comparably infinite climbing traction on a road bike. On an MTB during climbs it's a constant balance between keeping enough weight on the front to steer and not wheelie while keeping enough weight on the rear to not spin out. Sometimes it's simply not possible and you have to find ways to coast for a beat or manual the bike.
Anyway, sorry for the sidebar. I was not talking specifically about motorcycles.
I wonder on a bike with much more solid on-center attitude if this "press the inside handlebar" is more necessary than on a GS? On my GS500, it takes no work at all to get it to lean. It's automatic. I think it's 40+ years of daily riding a two-wheel vehicle that makes it natural for me but it sure seems like my dad's Shadow takes a lot more effort to steer.
@Big Rich, freaking awesome, I never thought about an app! Lot's of the apps are not in the Aussie store :¬( but I found a very simple app called Bangle, which does exactly what I want. Went out straight away and a corner that seemed like 45 was actually 35.
@herennow, that chalk trick seems like a decent idea
@Watcher, yeah that weight on the wrong side is very weird. Having said that I will do that for a U-Turn, and sometimes I'll do it for a low speed tight roundabout.
@Joolstacho, I'm not fond of riding with others except for the gf, in fact I'm not fond of people in general!
@Mr72, I learned years ago that cars can go round corners faster than a bike, which surprises most people because on the road they always back off due to the g forces.
I did to a rider training course about 35 years ago then we had a track day at Philip Island where I managed to grind down the rocker covers on my 650LS! while going round fast bends, I could practice counter steering, it's quite cool halfway round the bend I could just press the handlebar and control the lean angle, ease up a bit and let the bike stand up a tad.
I've been gradually getting my skills back. What I have found that has helped me a great deal recently is 'looking through the corner' I know we get told that all the time but after all these years I've actually been deliberately practising this and it's amazing how much easier it is. The other thing I've been practising lately is keeping my arms and shoulders relaxed to the point that when I shift my weight to take a corner I'm putting no weight at all on the bars just to get a feel for it, and using my weight shift instead this has also helped. But I feel that I am ready to be more aware of the actual lean angle.
I do use the balls of my feet naturally when cornering, when I'm on the highway I'll hook my heel onto the pegs and let my toes point down.
We have a marina just round the corner with a huge car park for cars with trailers, I went down there today to see if I could get permission to put some cones down and I found out that it's owned by the council not the marina. So I'll be ordering some mini cones and starting to practice my figure 8's.
I got the Ride Like A Pro DVD and now I'll be able to practice the cone work https://www.youtube.com/user/motorman857/videos
(https://s7.postimg.cc/e5ruepjxj/carpark.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e5ruepjxj/)
(https://s7.postimg.cc/yd5a709p3/carpark_2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/yd5a709p3/)
Quote from: mr72 on May 01, 2018, 12:40:53 PM
...
I wonder on a bike with much more solid on-center attitude if this "press the inside handlebar" is more necessary than on a GS? On my GS500, it takes no work at all to get it to lean. It's automatic. I think it's 40+ years of daily riding a two-wheel vehicle that makes it natural for me but it sure seems like my dad's Shadow takes a lot more effort to steer.
I think I've said this before, but my GS is much more lean-happy than my Blast. Both are relatively nimble, light bikes, but the GS takes much less effort to turn. When I turn on the Blast, I can feel the inside bar pushing back and I have to exert much more effort to keep the bike leaned over. And my dad's R75 is much the same.
Quote from: qcbaker on May 02, 2018, 05:10:27 AM
... my GS is much more lean-happy than my Blast. Both are relatively nimble, light bikes, but the GS takes much less effort to turn. When I turn on the Blast, I can feel the inside bar pushing back and I have to exert much more effort to keep the bike leaned over. And my dad's R75 is much the same.
That's interesting. I haven't spent much time riding anything besides my GS so I don't have any kind of good frame of reference. I wonder what it is about the GS that makes it so?
Quote from: mr72 on May 02, 2018, 05:54:23 AM
That's interesting. I haven't spent much time riding anything besides my GS so I don't have any kind of good frame of reference. I wonder what it is about the GS that makes it so?
I'm pretty sure it has to do with the wheelbases, tire sizes, steering head angle, rake/trail, etc. They're different bikes, so it follows that they would have different handling characteristics.
Well the Blast and the GS500 are very, very similar in wheelbase and rake/trail.
GS500:
Rake, trail 25° 30′, 95 mm (3.7 in)
Wheelbase 1,405 mm (55.3 in)
Blast:
Rake, trail 25.0° / 3.4 in (86 mm)
Wheelbase 55.0 in (1,400 mm)
The GS has half a degree steeper fork 5mm longer wheelbase and 9mm more trail.
I'd have to guess it's that half degree of head angle that makes the difference. Maybe the center of gravity of the bike+rider also plays a role? I am guessing the Blast is more upright than a GS, pegs more forward, etc. Weight is very similar, actually looks like the Buell is ~13 lb lighter than a GS500E.
Surprisingly similar specs on those bikes.
Quote from: mr72 on May 02, 2018, 06:57:02 AM
Well the Blast and the GS500 are very, very similar in wheelbase and rake/trail.
GS500:
Rake, trail 25° 30′, 95 mm (3.7 in)
Wheelbase 1,405 mm (55.3 in)
Blast:
Rake, trail 25.0° / 3.4 in (86 mm)
Wheelbase 55.0 in (1,400 mm)
The GS has half a degree steeper fork 5mm longer wheelbase and 9mm more trail.
I'd have to guess it's that half degree of head angle that makes the difference. Maybe the center of gravity of the bike+rider also plays a role? I am guessing the Blast is more upright than a GS, pegs more forward, etc. Weight is very similar, actually looks like the Buell is ~13 lb lighter than a GS500E.
Surprisingly similar specs on those bikes.
I'd never looked at the specs side-by side like that. Yeah, they're more similar on paper than I realized.
But you're correct in that the Blast is more upright, so that probably also contributes to the handling characteristics as well. The GS definitely feels closer to a sportbike and the Blast feels closer to a cruiser.
Quote from: user11235813 on May 02, 2018, 02:22:35 AM
@Watcher, yeah that weight on the wrong side is very weird. Having said that I will do that for a U-Turn, and sometimes I'll do it for a low speed tight roundabout.
Low speed is where you want to
counter-weight. If you're counter-steering, however, you shouldn't ever counter-weight; you're going fast enough that you're experiencing strong centripetal/centrifugal forces and counter-weighting is counter-productive.
Hey, that could be a mnemonic device! When counter-steering counter-weighting is counter-productive!
Not very catchy, though...
Here's a good video regarding foot position. https://youtu.be/wC7PkQd7kLU
Picking up some cones tomorrow, might be a while before I manage this! https://youtu.be/H2fZAuDL5NQ
I don't know why he places his foot on the far outside of the peg when talking about the balls of his feet. I'd say that is causing his slight instability in that instance, not which part of the food he is on, but it seems to me the "rear middle" and the "front middle" are otherwise minor biases of the same position.
He doesn't seem to consider the "rear middle" to be the arch, though, so I feel like we're more or less saying the same thing.
Great visual aid. Saves me trying to make the same video, lol!
Quote from: mr72 on May 01, 2018, 06:54:46 AM4. The biggest thing keeping me from leaning more and taking ordinary road curves faster is uncertainty about the road surface. I know I can lean the bike and take turns much quicker but around here the twisty roads also have crummy surface with lots of patches and often have gravel or sand on the road. My fear is I'll get into a turn too fast and run into some gravel or a patch that upsets the suspension that I couldn't see when entering the turn.
Been there, done that. I hit some gravel in a turn on a 25mph road going 70+. It smacked me down so fast all I remember is sliding across the pavement. It's safest to keep the really fast riding to the track where the surface is known. :cheers:
@Alpo, what you say is certainly true, but it's not that simple, because it's just as easy to low side on some sand or gravel taking a turn at a normal speed. Just riding normally most of us who like to ride are going to take virtually all turns at faster than signposted and that's not being a boy racer, just normal riding. So bearing that in mind it's better rather than give unrealistic advice to suggest that before doing some 'spirited' riding on the open road, to survey the road bother directions until you understand it. That's not to say some surprise gravel can't suddenly appear.
While doing some more research yesterday I have come across the Keith Code "A Twist of the Wrist II" DVD, after watching the first 5 minutes I can see already it's going to be excellent.
Here's a clip from the DVD, must get some motorcycle training wheels.
https://youtu.be/LDA-K9TK6u8
ATOTW II is an amazing video that's occasionally on YouTube both in it's entirety and it's "meat and potatoes" form with the B rate acting bits taken out. It often gets flagged, so no link lasts long, but it's something every rider should watch.
It does deal with a lot of track techniques, but all of those techniques translate into road riding. IIRC one of the first things they talk about is target fixation, and use a road scenario to frame the lesson.
@Watcher, there was one bit that was a real eye opener, getting off the gas mid turn makes the bike stand up! which, as they point out is counter intuitive and the reasoning is that the weight transfers to the front, compresses the forks an the weight goes to the inside of the front tyre setting up a counter steer that stands the bike up and runs wide. phew!
Quote from: user11235813 on May 04, 2018, 01:26:01 AM
@Watcher, there was one bit that was a real eye opener, getting off the gas mid turn makes the bike stand up!
Sometimes I demo this, but I always mention this to my new riders.
I set it up where I ask "what if you enter a turn too fast and start to run wide?"
To which students mostly answer "use the brakes and slow down".
They should remember that using the brakes in a turn is a bad idea, so I remind them and ask what else they can do.
"Roll off the throttle to slow down."
Then I ask what the front of the bike does when you slow down, looking for an answer that the weight shifts forward, and explain this concept that slowing down in a turn makes you run wider.
"If you can't slow down what can you do?"
"Roll ON the throttle." :laugh:
It's funny how most people reason, if you can't slow down you can always speed up, right? I mean, they're not exactly wrong, but a new rider getting on the gas in a turn that's already running wide is NOT productive! I usually ask "So you've entered a turn too fast and your solution is to go
faster!?"
We all have a quick chuckle.
Now I reveal the solution. "It's not a good idea to change your speed at all once you're in the turn, if you make a mistake and start to run a little wide the best thing you can do is look deeper into the turn and press that inside handgrip a little more. Trust your tires." Then I demo a large curve on a Supermoto and try to get it really leaned over.
Quote from: Watcher on May 04, 2018, 08:49:00 AMNow I reveal the solution. "It's not a good idea to change your speed at all once you're in the turn, if you make a mistake and start to run a little wide the best thing you can do is look deeper into the turn and press that inside handgrip a little more. Trust your tires." Then I demo a large curve on a Supermoto and try to get it really leaned over.
This.
If you're in too hot lean more.
Body position is everything. I took an advanced riding course years ago. One of the instructors was a petite lady. One of the other riders was on a full-dress Harley. He claimed it would not corner well; she hopped on it and was dragging her knee around the figure eight. It was both amusing and enlightening.
Quote from: alpo on May 04, 2018, 04:03:51 PM
she hopped on it and was dragging her knee around the figure eight. It was both amusing and enlightening.
No video? That sounds amazing :laugh:
Yeah. The least maneuverable piece of the motorcycle/rider combo is usually the rider.
Quote from: alpo on April 29, 2018, 10:29:00 AM
Even more unexpected things happen on the street. When I ride I'm always thinking about traffic around me: They're out to kill me. I can't count the times people have pulled out in front of me. Being able to react quickly has saved my life.
This is 100% true. I think it was Derrick Hill - He got killed in a road accident, after years of F1, and I think it was the same day he got his street driving license. Street is far scarier than the track on some occasions. The higher and higher racing classes are better and better, of course the local clubs to entertain the crowds let the 125's out first, and 30 sec later let out the 250's, then the 500's. To encourage "passing" even though its across classes. Then of course a 125 could get in the way of Mick Doohan ending his career.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Watcher on May 04, 2018, 05:27:00 PMNo video? That sounds amazing :laugh:
It was! Unfortunately everyone was standing around with their gear on and no cameras.
Edit: I looked up the course and they have a picture of a similar situation. Check it out half way down this page (http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/riding-courses/advanced-riding-clinic-level-2).
I can't say enough good about their courses. Highly recommended!
@alpo,
Here's a rather silly photo from that page! The rider doesn't need to be dragging their knee in this situation, it's just a half cheek off the seat situation, throwing your knee down unnecessarily is counter productive as it removes flexibility and if you do it on the street you look like a dickhead. Knee dragging is for actually hanging off the bike and you have no choice.
In this case his left arm is well bent and his back is curving to the opposite way he's hanging off. This is what they usually teach you not to do on these types of courses.
(http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/images/arc-07_resize.jpg)
If you're gonna be a knee dragon, then you'll be expecting to hang off like below, otherwise you're just fooling yourself pretending that you have skills you do not possess which is a sure way to get into some serious trouble. If your balls aren't over your calf then you needn't be dragging your knee.
(https://s18.postimg.cc/r1eqdwi4l/kneedragon.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/r1eqdwi4l/)
Quote from: user11235813 on May 05, 2018, 06:09:22 PM
The rider doesn't need to be dragging their knee in this situation, it's just a half cheek off the seat situation, throwing your knee down unnecessarily is counter productive as it removes flexibility and if you do it on the street you look like a dickhead. Knee dragging is for actually hanging off the bike and you have no choice.
In this case his left arm is well bent and his back is curving to the opposite way he's hanging off. This is what they usually teach you not to do on these types of courses.
Wow, you're being really presumptuous here.
The whole "knee dragging is for {when} you have no choice" is false. Hanging off isn't a balls-to-the-walls-fast technique only, you can be at a relatively low speed and still decrease your turning radius by hanging to the inside.
You can't really tell how fast he's going either. Now, I've watched enough Gymkhana to know you don't
need to drag knee to get the bike super low at 1st/2nd gear speeds, so I might concede that it might not necessary for the pictured rider to be doing so. I'll also concede that the rider is "crossed up". But look at them, they obviously aren't an instructor, so this is likely an inexperienced rider
practicing the techniques, and much like anything else motorcycle the method to success is to start slow and work your way fast.
You're also overlooking one of the core reasons why riders drag knee in the first place, and that's the knee down acts as a gauge for max lean angle. Once you're on the puck that's basically as far down as you can go. Hanging off is the best method to really learn the bike while minimizing the danger of low-siding due to ground-clearance.
As for "looking like a dickhead" on the streets, there's a big difference between "looking like" and "
riding like".
Someone with proper technique and getting a knee down, like your second pictured rider, is likely "
riding like a dickhead," presumably going way too fast on public roads.
This person "looks like a dickhead" to me.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/Y4xiJP.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmY4xiJPj)
Quote from: Watcher on May 05, 2018, 07:12:10 PM
This person "looks like a dickhead" to me.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/Y4xiJP.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmY4xiJPj)
LMAO! :D
Like Watcher said, dragging the knee is a result of getting off the bike, touching the pavement to determine the lean angle and going around the corner. Personally I don't like dragging a knee all the way around a corner - when possible I'll let it touch down to judge the lean angle then lift it a little, so it barely skims the pavement. Sometimes when you're way over you can't help dragging it around a corner. What's really fun is when you're way over and drag an elbow. :)
Many people don't get off the bike when cornering on the street. That's OK. However, you have a lot more options when your body position is correct even though onlookers may scoff at the "boy racer". I prefer to have options in the case of contingencies instead of worrying about what other people think. Once you get a feel for good body position it is very comfortable, stable and makes for a safer ride.
I'm no pro, but have ridden with them. Talk about a humbling experience!
I was actually taught to hang off to go around the trumpet part of a junction by my instructor when learning for my licence test! I feel like a right wannabe doing it sometimes but it actually makes the corners a lot easier.
I've never really paid much attention to my knee as I usually don't need to hang off much on the road. However I am surprise to discover today that when I did check what I do I find that when I've got my bum crack off the seat I notice that instead of my knee being down I actually keep it pressed tight against the tank which feels right! It feels that my body is stabilised better this way and it appears to be completely unnecessary to stick my knee out.
Quote from: user11235813 on May 06, 2018, 11:59:34 PM
when I've got my bum crack off the seat I notice that instead of my knee being down I actually keep it pressed tight against the tank
That's how you end up "crossed up," much like the rider you chastised.
Bum down but knee up points your hips out of the turn, the opposite of what you want.
For the street upper body is all you really need off the center of the bike, if you're going to get your crack off the seat you
should/ be sticking your knee out.
@Watcher That's how you end up "crossed up," much like the rider you chastised.
Dragging your knee on the ground unnecessarily, is not the same as pressing it up against the tankt. Remember this was about the GS which has a moderately upright position. I think that has a lot to do with it, if you're hugging a fat tank with low set clip ons then yes it's a different proposition. I also have the moto tech bar backs and risers.
Quote from: user11235813 on May 07, 2018, 02:57:32 PM
@Watcher That's how you end up "crossed up," much like the rider you chastised.
Dragging your knee on the ground unnecessarily, is not the same as pressing it up against the tankt. Remember this was about the GS which has a moderately upright position. I think that has a lot to do with it, if you're hugging a fat tank with low set clip ons then yes it's a different proposition. I also have the moto tech bar backs and risers.
No offense, but you are speculating.
"Kiss the mirror" is the expression you're looking for. Get your chest down. This can be done on a standard bike.
Quote from: user11235813 on May 07, 2018, 02:57:32 PM
@Watcher That's how you end up "crossed up," much like the rider you chastised.
Dragging your knee on the ground unnecessarily, is not the same as pressing it up against the tank.
I never implied it was.
"Crossed up" would refer to a body position that faces away from the direction of travel
Sliding your butt off the left of the bike while keeping your knees in would point your hips and thus your torso to the right,
outside of the turn. It's not a good posture or technique.
Hanging a cheek must be accompanied with the proper footwork.
Otherwise just keep your rear in the center of the saddle and use your upper body to weight the bike. "Kiss the mirror."
Quote from: alpo on May 04, 2018, 04:03:51 PM
Quote from: Watcher on May 04, 2018, 08:49:00 AMNow I reveal the solution. "It's not a good idea to change your speed at all once you're in the turn, if you make a mistake and start to run a little wide the best thing you can do is look deeper into the turn and press that inside handgrip a little more. Trust your tires." Then I demo a large curve on a Supermoto and try to get it really leaned over.
This.
If you're in too hot lean more.
Body position is everything. I took an advanced riding course years ago. One of the instructors was a petite lady. One of the other riders was on a full-dress Harley. He claimed it would not corner well; she hopped on it and was dragging her knee around the figure eight. It was both amusing and enlightening.
There's a video somewhere on youtube of a guy on a bagger tearing up Mulholland Highway, hanging off around corners. I think it's in a compilation with a bunch of other riders/drivers, so I'll have a hard time locating it, but if I find the link I'll post it up.
There's always Yellow Wolf who rides The Tail of the Dragon on a Goldwing and passes sportbike riders.
I never understand those dudes that ride huge cruiser/touring bikes as if they were sportbikes. If you're gonna ride that hard, why not get a bike built for that kind of riding?
Quote from: qcbaker on May 08, 2018, 09:35:30 AM
I never understand those dudes that ride huge cruiser/touring bikes as if they were sportbikes. If you're gonna ride that hard, why not get a bike built for that kind of riding?
Comfort.
My manager rides an F6B almost daily and he's scraped engine covers cornering that thing. Had a chance to ride it briefly, it's so well balanced that it doesn't handle like it's a massive Goldwing, but as for the seat and suspension and fairing and etc it totally rides like it's a massive Goldwing.
He rode it down the coast from Washington to Arizona (from the seller to his house) and had to buy new tires when he got here (tires were practically new when he bought the bike, allegedly). I've never seen a cruiser/touring tire with so much rubber scrubbed off the shoulders, in his words "It's a bike that feels like a couch but has the power and handling to be ridden like a sportbike." Said there's no better bike for, say, riding across the country to get to some amazing road and then actually riding said amazing road, as opposed to trailering down your bike and driving most of the trip.
One of my early track instructors rode an FJR. He rode it to the track, railed around the track on it and rode it home.
The FJR I can kind of understand, but the Goldwing is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes it's comfortable, but if you're riding so hard that you're scraping parts all the time, I feel like you should probably get a "sportier" sport-tourer (Ninja 1000, SuperDuke GT, etc.).
I've seen it, too. It's all about preference. :) Some guys only want one bike that serves multiple purposes. When mama is out for a ride she wants comfort; when she's not there he really wants a sport bike. Regardless, you have to give them credit for really riding those beasts.
Quote from: alpo on May 09, 2018, 08:57:50 AM
I've seen it, too. It's all about preference. :) Some guys only want one bike that serves multiple purposes. When mama is out for a ride she wants comfort; when she's not there he really wants a sport bike. Regardless, you have to give them credit for really riding those beasts.
In my experience, if you can afford a Goldwing, you can afford 2 bikes lol.
But you're right, it is nothing if not impressive to see how hard those types of bikes can be pushed. Really shows how true it is that the rider is almost always the slowest part of the machine lol.
Indeed! If I could ride my bikes to their potential you'd see me on TV! :D
Quote from: alpo on May 09, 2018, 10:36:33 AM
Indeed! If I could ride my bikes to their potential you'd see me on TV! :D
This is exactly why I'm in no hurry to get rid of the GS.