Every bike mag or web post is nearly breathless in their review of just about every bike out there. No doubt in part because they have to pay homage to their ad sponsors.
And forums are biased because most folks there obviously like their bikes. Heck, even though we grumble about the cheesium nuts and bolts on our GS, most of us still love the utility and dependability of our humble bikes.
So wondering what are the really bad bike models out there, based on your personal experience. What's the Yugo or Gremlin equivalent in the motorcycle world?
Quote from: Endopotential on August 28, 2018, 11:55:35 AM
Every bike mag or web post is nearly breathless in their review of just about every bike out there. No doubt in part because they have to pay homage to their ad sponsors.
And forums are biased because most folks there obviously like their bikes. Heck, even though we grumble about the cheesium nuts and bolts on our GS, most of us still love the utility and dependability of our humble bikes.
So wondering what are the really bad bike models out there, based on your personal experience. What's the Yugo or Gremlin equivalent in the motorcycle world?
I mean, pretty much anything Chinese is a good start, although I've heard good about some Lexmotos.
The GS500, for sure. Man, what a garbage bike...
On a serious note, the Buell Blast is a pretty near-universally hated bike. Even Erik Buell himself detests that bike. I own one and I personally don't hate it as much as everyone else seems to, but its an easy choice between it and my GS lol. I originally bought it for my girlfriend and initially she seemed to like it, but after getting to ride a Grom at our BRC session, she's realized that the Blast isn't really what she's looking for. I'll probably sell it next spring.
What was wrong with the Blast?
I have a Buell XB9 Lightning which I mostly like. The rumble of a V-twin is awesome, and the low end torque is a hoot. The suspension is really nice; that front ZTL perimeter brake is super strong. The clunky transmission sucks though. Also feels much more top heavy than our GS.
The "Trilogy of Tech" on the newer Buells is really cool - gas inside the frame; oil inside the swingarm; that awesome ZTL brake. Plus bulletproof belt drive.
https://www.adandp.media/articles/buell-motorcycle-engineering-innovation-and-dedication
What surprises me is how the best vehicle brands can sometimes make bad mistakes. Honda's new CB500 line are universally acclaimed and loved by their owners, but in the introductory year of 2013 a lot of owners reported really excessive oil burn for a new engine, which Honda tried for a long time to defend as "normal". I don't know if they ever owned up to it. The Harley Evolution engine saved the company, but it has been reported to have a real problem with (I believe) its valve cam system that can ruin the engine. My 2007 Toyota Camry has a poor piston lubrication problem such that instead of going 200,000 miles like Toyotas normally do, it is good for about 120,000 miles (mine has been burning a lot of oil starting at about 70k miles). I prefer gently used vehicles a few years old because you can get them for less than half price (I paid $2k for my GS500 with 1600 miles on it, and $7k for a $21k new Miata with 16k miles on it), and there has been time for the problems to become known.
Bad - as in dumbass poor design/implementation - sadly each bike/make has its ups and downs.
GS - IMHO - sheietty quality of steel parts, and that retarded clutch push rod running across the motor as well as a few other brain fart moments.
The vulcan 750 - alternator/regulator combo that blew up and you had to take the motor out of the frame to get the alternator out. Nightmare carbs too, but awesome neutral steering and shaft dr and hydraulic valves.
Savage 650 - nightmare steering - yea for such a small bike it steered like a wheel barrow. But super light and everything is easy to work on. Oh yea stupid cam chain tensioner.
My SCR950/bolt - nightmare to get the battery out, and heavy as a mofo and rather gutless inspite of 950 cc. However belt drive and million $$$ looks (SCR not bolt).
The list goes on and on and on.
Cool.
Buddha.
The ER5N feels like the frame is made from spaghetti, according to my boyfriend, and he'll definitely come out and say he thinks it's a dangerous bike. :dunno_black:
For me, I dislike all the tech that gets put in the newer bikes. I did a trip with a guy with an R6 once, who ended up along the side of the road with a "no fuel" message. He had plenty of fuel, but the sensor was faulty and registered empty, thus the bike wouldn't start up. I'd quickly be done with that sort of stuff to be honest.
I've owned a lot of Suzukis, and I hate to say most Suzukis.
The problem I have with Suzuki, is more on the electrical side of things - they just have REALLY crappy ideas as to what good electrical is. They're still using OEM electrical tape on 2018s! the routing is really garbage. the connectors are garbage. the gauge sizes are garbage. and it seems to be the actual electrical boards aren't meant for the environments they're gonna be put in. hot + wet.
I get what Suzuki does. Cheap and fast. good in that respect, but for any length of time they really suffer. And I understand the crappy electrical is pretty universal across many brands of bike.. but Suzuki just takes it to a whole new "cheap" level.
also Suzuki never makes recalls.
cbrf2! What an annoying turd!
Quote from: cbrfxr67 on August 28, 2018, 02:29:48 PM
cbrf2! What an annoying turd!
You don't like your cam chain tensioner failing randomly? lol
Here's a link with a detailed explanation of the engine destroying Harley twin-cam problem:
http://blog.jpcycles.com/i-love-harley-davidson-but-you-must-know-this/
From this page: "The problem is the design of the cam chain system. It uses plastic "shoes" riding on the cam chains that can (and do) wear out. Harley has made some changes in later model bikes, but even with the new hydraulic tensioning system, it is not a true fix. What is the problem? The shoes rub against the two chains and the plastic shoes wear out. When they wear in extreme cases, there will be metal to metal contact and this grinding creates metal shavings that can result in a catastrophic engine failure. If not caught soon enough, this can be so bad that the entire engine can be destroyed; cams, pistons, crankshaft and even engine cases broken. It is a wickedly serious possible engine problem. Be aware... it can fail as soon 15,000 miles (in extreme cases). Even the newer hydraulic system can fail at 50,000 miles or less."
My dentist has a custom Harley with over $30k in it. Hate to make that kind of investment in a bike and then have this happen.
BTW ninja 500 and its predecessor motors (the KZ440 etc) as well as my rather over built in all the wrong ways Yamaha bolt has the cam chain tensioner on the wrong side. The tension side ... Dumba$$$ idea.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: MaxD on August 28, 2018, 03:21:57 PM
My dentist has a custom Harley with over $30k in it. Hate to make that kind of investment in a bike and then have this happen.
it's easy to have 30k into a harley, Exhaust, Seat, Headlights, airbrush paint job with skulls or naked girls...... and 2 oil changes a year. that's your 30k.
My brother bought a new Hyosung from a dealership. As a first time rider I think he got caught up in the idea of having something from new with no previous history of abuse.
I bought a low-mileage GS for considerably less. (about 2/3 the price)
On his bike within a year there was rust all over the place. Even under the chromed parts. The quality of the steel must have been pretty bad.
OTOH I rode my GS for 3 years then sold it for the price I bought it for. So I think a few lessons were learned there: the obvious economics of new vs second hand; Korean vs Japanese.
Other than that when I bought my new bike (CBF1000) the first service was 'free' and included the use of a loan bike while it was in the shop. They handed me a CBF250 and I have to say it was an awful, cheap feeling bike. It really didn't feel good at all tipping into a corner. And I've ridden some very cheap old bikes (ct110, 80s trials bikes, scooters) and this was the only one that felt truly terrible.
Quote from: philward on August 28, 2018, 06:46:15 PM
Hyosung
Thing with hyosung, is its buying a harbor freight motor, instead of a honda. its basically a copy of other motors for a fraction of its price, the 650 is pretty much an SV650 engine. and it's one of those. "just take everything apart and loctite all the bolts" quality. it can be made good, by time you got it there however you could of bought the real thing.
but we all got to start somewhere.. Frankly I didn't have a good opinion on Kia until recently.
This is entertaining and educational! What else can you ask for? :cheers:
Keep it coming!
Quote from: J_Walker on August 28, 2018, 02:07:40 PM
The problem I have with Suzuki, is more on the electrical side of things.
I order more stators for GSXRs than all other makes combined.
Chew on that for a minute.
I'm also really surprised in Suzuki when it comes to the GSX250R. When they teased it I was like "300s are the norm, now, this is too little too late, but I'll humor them." Having been around them, they're junk. They use some really oddball tire sizes, the engine is lifted from a GW250 and makes crap power even for a 250, and it just seems really cheaply put together.
It's obvious they aren't selling, either, as Suzuki is offering a factory incentive graphics kit of your choice and I hear reports of dealerships selling them for like $2000 under MSRP, which is nearly 50% off!
Quote from: Watcher on August 28, 2018, 11:06:31 PM
I order more stators for GSXRs than all other makes combined.
Chew on that for a minute.
I have nothing really meaningful to add to this thread so I'm reading it with interest. But one thing I will point out here is about probabilities and statistics. GSXRs have to be the most common sport bikes out there, even though I am too lazy to look up the statistics. And I would speculate that due to price and abundance on the used market (supply>demand) they are more often owned by beginners and "squids" than others. So it may be a combination of ubiquity and probability of abuse leading to at least a high exposure rate of a weak part.
I remember after I sold my 240Z there were a few years there that 240Zs had the reputation of being always broken rustbuckets but once their rarity priced them out of the reach of high school kids suddenly they became reliable vintage GT cars akin to 911s. Point is, sometimes the owners are responsible for reputation of quality. Someone who spends $20K on a BMW motorcycle is more likely to have money to take care of it, someone who buys a $4K NEW Honda and has to get a loan to pay for it likely can't stay on top of maintenance or might not even know what to look for. So when they are each 10 years old the Honda is going to be "junk" due to neglect while the BMW is going to be nice due to fastidious maintenance. That says nothing about quality.
Quote
I'm also really surprised in Suzuki when it comes to the GSX250R. When they teased it I was like "300s are the norm, now, this is too little too late, but I'll humor them." Having been around them, they're junk. They use some really oddball tire sizes, the engine is lifted from a GW250 and makes crap power even for a 250, and it just seems really cheaply put together.
It's obvious they aren't selling, either, as Suzuki is offering a factory incentive graphics kit of your choice and I hear reports of dealerships selling them for like $2000 under MSRP, which is nearly 50% off!
Yet, I wonder if we'll come back here in 10 years and find that the "junk" Suzukis wind up being bulletproof and beloved by type of people who dig our GS500s and the R3s and Ninja 300s wind up being clapped out high maintenance beaters by then. Again, who buys these cheap bikes? I kind of figure if someone is going to pick the fastest or fastest-looking one then maybe the slower or more pedestrian ones will get less abuse over time... kind of like how Volvos in the 80s and 90s had a reputation of durability... nobody who bought them new would dare to rev them over 4K or put the pedal on the floor.
Anyway, I'm not interested in that Suzuki and I'm sure they're a lot of no-fun to ride and old tech but maybe Suzuki's experience with the GS500 actually predicts they know what they are doing here.
I will agree on my GS500 most of the annoying problems have been with electrical parts. I've replaced them, when necessary, with non-Suzuki parts with requisite mods. I guess I don't trust their electrics either.
Quote from: Endopotential on August 28, 2018, 12:35:58 PM
What was wrong with the Blast?
Personally, I think its kinda uncomfortable to ride. The seat (admittedly, its the lower seat so that may have something to do with it) is thin and doesn't really provide much support, which wouldn't be too much of an issue, but the riding position is basically straight upright so all your weight is on your butt rather than your legs. That seat, combined with how much the bike vibrates (a 500cc single likes to thump lol), makes it a pretty rough ride for anything longer than like 45 minutes. And this may be just because the tires on mine are basically shot, but there's a lot of resistance when turning. I can feel the handlebars pushing back when I countersteer into a turn. No other bike I've ridden has felt like that. Lastly, the transmission is CLUNKY. And the shift lever is made for someone with feet 3 times the size of a normal human. Its so long that in order to use it, I basically have to have my heel on the peg. I can shift my GS with the ball of my foot on the peg and my toe hits the shift lever. I adjusted the Blast's lever as much as I could but its still not ideal. I feel like the Blast is a bike that nobody on the design team really wanted to build. It feels built by commitee rather than a product of novel design, like other Buells.
But, overall it does handle pretty well for what it is. And the single cylinder/carb makes it really easy to work on. Plus, the auto-enricher is nice since you don't have to mess with a choke. Its not that bad of a bike, but there are much better machines out there.
Quote
I have a Buell XB9 Lightning which I mostly like. The rumble of a V-twin is awesome, and the low end torque is a hoot. The suspension is really nice; that front ZTL perimeter brake is super strong. The clunky transmission sucks though. Also feels much more top heavy than our GS.
The "Trilogy of Tech" on the newer Buells is really cool - gas inside the frame; oil inside the swingarm; that awesome ZTL brake. Plus bulletproof belt drive.
https://www.adandp.media/articles/buell-motorcycle-engineering-innovation-and-dedication
Yeah, the XB series are really cool. Buells in general are very cool bikes, and most of them are great to ride, I've heard. The Blast is just the odd one out.
Quote from: mr72 on August 29, 2018, 06:22:35 AM
Quote from: Watcher on August 28, 2018, 11:06:31 PM
I order more stators for GSXRs than all other makes combined.
Chew on that for a minute.
I have nothing really meaningful to add to this thread so I'm reading it with interest. But one thing I will point out here is about probabilities and statistics. GSXRs have to be the most common sport bikes out there, even though I am too lazy to look up the statistics. And I would speculate that due to price and abundance on the used market (supply>demand) they are more often owned by beginners and "squids" than others. So it may be a combination of ubiquity and probability of abuse leading to at least a high exposure rate of a weak part.
I remember after I sold my 240Z there were a few years there that 240Zs had the reputation of being always broken rustbuckets but once their rarity priced them out of the reach of high school kids suddenly they became reliable vintage GT cars akin to 911s. Point is, sometimes the owners are responsible for reputation of quality. Someone who spends $20K on a BMW motorcycle is more likely to have money to take care of it, someone who buys a $4K NEW Honda and has to get a loan to pay for it likely can't stay on top of maintenance or might not even know what to look for. So when they are each 10 years old the Honda is going to be "junk" due to neglect while the BMW is going to be nice due to fastidious maintenance. That says nothing about quality.
You may be on to something, I'll be sure to let you guys know how the electrical system holds up when I get my GSX-R lol.
I think Mr72 is on to something when he points out that buyers of cheap bikes also tend to be people who are hard on the machines and don't do good maintenance. Whatever problems are inherent in the lower cost design are then magnified. On the other hand, if a bike is good enough to attract a dedicated on-line forum, what problems it has are reduced, and it ends up perceived quite differently.
My first bike was a 1979 Honda CX500. I liked its looks, but some people thought it was ugly. One reviewer called it "the plastic maggot", and that name stuck. But, the bike had many virtues and over time it attracted a set of owners who appreciated it. A dedicated on-line user group formed around the bike, and now it is a very well loved machine.
A users group like this one makes a huge difference in making a bike worth maintaining long term--it is effectively a large step up in the quality of the machine and the rewards of owning it. And, it is just a lot more fun to have the community of knowledgeable users to swap information with than it is to be stuck trying to figure everything out all by yourself. The reduction of the hassle factor and the enjoyment of discussing the issues with other owners make the ownership experience much better.
If we ignore the pasta-rockets and other oddballs and see only Japanese, there are 4 choices in a sportbike. CBR, Ninja, YZF-R, and GSXR.
In a perfect world they'd have even popularity, so 25% of people have CBRs, 25% have Ninjas, etc etc.
It's not perfect, but it's not exactly an obvious bias. GSXRs and Ninjas seem, to me, to be the more popular while CBRs and YZF-Rs are less popular, but it's so small a difference. Let's be really obvious and say it's like 35% of people have GSXRs, 30% have Ninjas, 20% CBR, 15% YZF-R. (Realistically I think 30% max on the GSXR).
It still ends up being 65% of people DON'T have GSXRs, while something like 90% of stators and reg/rec that I order are for GSXRs.
I think that's more than a popularity + user demographic bias, I think it's a manufacturing issue. Especially since it's not like "oh my cams rounded off!" "Well, you never changed your oil ever". Electrical stuff is relatively maintenance free, either it's made to last or it's junk.
For certain year GSXRs they actually make a reg/rec relocation kit that moves it under the tail section farther from any sources of heat. Supposedly that how newer GSXRs are placing them and it's supposed to be more reliable. Heat can damage electronics, huh, who would have known? Everyone except Suzuki, it seems.
Oh yea, place a delicate catastrophic if failed but still cheap part so you can replace it under warranty but claim that owner negligence caused the other more $$$$$ part to fail in a spot prone to get ruined, or hope it can take 2-3 of the cheaper part failing, so you can get em for the $$$$ part when it fails out of warranty ... Case in point - Vulcan 750 - under the battery in front of the rear wheel just above the swingarm brace. Awesome. Muck, battery acid and engine heat. The trifecta. If it fails, its likely to take out the alternator. A $50 part fails, taking with it a $2000 (engine out of the frame to fix the alternator).
Other terrible locations for the regulator/rectifier - On top of the exhaust goat belly between the swingarm and exhaust in front of the rear wheel. Yes all the muck will fall on it + teh exhaust heat will cook it, plus you cant clean it.
The GS one is in a good spot, but the cake IMHO is the nighthawk 700/650/550 of 83-86. Under the Left side cover.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Watcher on August 29, 2018, 11:37:14 AM
If we ignore the pasta-rockets and other oddballs and see only Japanese, there are 4 choices in a sportbike. CBR, Ninja, YZF-R, and GSXR.
In a perfect world they'd have even popularity, so 25% of people have CBRs, 25% have Ninjas, etc etc.
It's not perfect, but it's not exactly an obvious bias. GSXRs and Ninjas seem, to me, to be the more popular while CBRs and YZF-Rs are less popular, but it's so small a difference. Let's be really obvious and say it's like 35% of people have GSXRs, 30% have Ninjas, 20% CBR, 15% YZF-R. (Realistically I think 30% max on the GSXR).
It still ends up being 65% of people DON'T have GSXRs, while something like 90% of stators and reg/rec that I order are for GSXRs.
I think that's more than a popularity + user demographic bias, I think it's a manufacturing issue. Especially since it's not like "oh my cams rounded off!" "Well, you never changed your oil ever". Electrical stuff is relatively maintenance free, either it's made to last or it's junk.
For certain year GSXRs they actually make a reg/rec relocation kit that moves it under the tail section farther from any sources of heat. Supposedly that how newer GSXRs are placing them and it's supposed to be more reliable. Heat can damage electronics, huh, who would have known? Everyone except Suzuki, it seems.
And again, Suzuki doesn't make recalls... the power seats might come unplugged in a modern car. RECALL. Stator falls apart sending bits inside your engine. Suzuki "meh, sucks 2 be you" Calipers fail due to bad castings. suzuki "meh, should of been going less fast"
Of course since motorcycles are seen as luxury items.. they aren't being held to the same standards as cars, at least in the USA and canada. Look how much flak VW got for cheating emissions. yet Harley did the EXACT same thing, AND GOT CAUGHT. not a single mention of it on the news tho.
Quote from: The Buddha on August 29, 2018, 01:17:31 PM
Oh yea, place a delicate catastrophic if failed but still cheap part so you can replace it under warranty but claim that owner negligence caused the other more $$$$$ part to fail in a spot prone to get ruined, or hope it can take 2-3 of the cheaper part failing, so you can get em for the $$$$ part when it fails out of warranty ... Case in point - Vulcan 750 - under the battery in front of the rear wheel just above the swingarm brace. Awesome. Muck, battery acid and engine heat. The trifecta. If it fails, its likely to take out the alternator. A $50 part fails, taking with it a $2000 (engine out of the frame to fix the alternator).
Other terrible locations for the regulator/rectifier - On top of the exhaust goat belly between the swingarm and exhaust in front of the rear wheel. Yes all the muck will fall on it + teh exhaust heat will cook it, plus you cant clean it.
The GS one is in a good spot, but the cake IMHO is the nighthawk 700/650/550 of 83-86. Under the Left side cover.
Cool.
Buddha.
I really want the new FJR1300.
but I always pre-read the maintenance manuals before I buy stuff.
At like 8k miles you have to replace/reapply the grease in the swing arm bushing...
Hah-ha....hah....... yeah everything just needs to come off and its like a 4 hour job, and not covered under most maintenance warranty's dealers offered.
you also have to test and adjust the throttle body's pretty early too, dealers are charging like 600 bucks to do this, when actually its one of the easier things to do yourself, expect its still a 200 dollar tool to do it.
Quote from: The Buddha on August 29, 2018, 01:17:31 PM
Case in point - Vulcan 750 - under the battery in front of the rear wheel just above the swingarm brace. Awesome. Muck, battery acid and engine heat. The trifecta. If it fails, its likely to take out the alternator. A $50 part fails, taking with it a $2000 (engine out of the frame to fix the alternator).
Buddha.
You speaking from personal experience there Buddha? That sounds like a horrific mess.
Watcher, I'm thinking / hoping that manufacturers are more responsible with modern bikes. My first one was a Yamaha R3, and they replaced the oil pump right away on a recall, before there was really a big rash of events. Good little bike, but I thankfully sold it before the multiple recalls that followed for triple tree, clutch, gas tank...
Quote from: Watcher on August 29, 2018, 11:37:14 AMHeat can damage electronics, huh, who would have known? Everyone except Suzuki, it seems.
In the electronics business, one of the things we have to keep in mind is that every 10 degC rise in temperature approximately doubles the failure rate. So, we're constantly making that trade-off of more expensive packages, more board area, more expensive heat sinks, etc, to keep the heat down.
Quote from: Watcher on August 29, 2018, 11:37:14 AM
Electrical stuff is relatively maintenance free, either it's made to last or it's junk.
+1 to this - having spent a small amount of $ buying no less than 10 new regulators of dubious Chinese manufacture with every single one failing out of the box - JUNK.
Throw a little more $$ at a Sun regulator made in Japan and the difference is night an day in terms of quality and in the quality control.
My job requires me to specify and evaluate electrical equipment every day - and there is a big difference in longevity when you pay that little bit more.
Aside from the wiring harness issues with Suzukis (and some of the Ninjas I have looked at), Suzuki seem to design electrics to within an inch of their life. I would be more than happy to pay say an additional 10% of unit cost for slightly over rated system components that aren't going to be stressed / last significantly longer than the current factory model.
Quote from: Endopotential on August 29, 2018, 08:00:44 PM
You speaking from personal experience there Buddha? That sounds like a horrific mess.
I got caught with my first Vulcan 750. Just about broke even on it. But every one since then - Bought for $300 with dead alternator from an owner who has essentially known they have got completely screwed ... cut the frame and fixed it, fixed the regulator location (to the left side instead of under the battery) and sold it for $1500. Ofcourse that was when I had a welder at my disposal, now ... meeh, no welder/fabricator, so no Vulcan 750.
@J_Walker - the carb synch on a FI bike - responds to the same tricks - long piece of tubing thrown over the rafters dipped into a bottle of oil. 4 cyl doesn't work with the U tube method, unless you do 2 at a time and then 1/2 and 1/2.
Cool.
Buddha.
Quote from: Endopotential on August 28, 2018, 11:55:35 AM
Every bike mag or web post is nearly breathless in their review of just about every bike out there. No doubt in part because they have to pay homage to their ad sponsors.
And forums are biased because most folks there obviously like their bikes. Heck, even though we grumble about the cheesium nuts and bolts on our GS, most of us still love the utility and dependability of our humble bikes.
So wondering what are the really bad bike models out there, based on your personal experience. What's the Yugo or Gremlin equivalent in the motorcycle world?
... with all due respect to american members.. and also american products (both really good :thumb:)
But... if Harleys are not shitty bikes... I really will get pretty confused... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I've always heard Ducati's are pretty unreliable and riddled with all kinds of gremlins even though they are packed with all the "best" name brand parts. They are expensive to fix as well. As much as I like the looks of some Ducati's I just stay away from them. I have 2 friends with Ducati's and both of them are always having problems but they never really complain, I think out of embarrassment. Kind of like how VW and Jeep owners stay loyal to the brand even though they are junk.
Same thing with BMW and Harley. Expensive, unreliable and cost a lot to fix.
I've owned a Lifan GY200 (Chinese dual sport). It cost me $1400 brand new. For the price it could not be beat. I put 8k miles on it before I had a single problem (rear shock got sticky). While the build quality was not the best it was very reliable. I could buy 3 of them for the cost of a Japanese equivalent.
Quote from: pliskin on August 31, 2018, 07:10:00 AM
I've always heard Ducati's are pretty unreliable and riddled with all kinds of gremlins even though they are packed with all the "best" name brand parts. They are expensive to fix as well.
Highest-performing parts may be "best" in one sense, but not "best" in terms of long-term durability. Kind of like Watcher's complaint about the GSX250R ... that old/slow engine may be super reliable and last forever compared with a more high-strung Yamaha 300, but if you ride one brand new and get on the other brand new you might think the Suz is pretty clunky.
BTW Ducatis fit my suggested model of bikes that last long mostly due to the owners' being predisposed to spending money to keep them working.
QuoteKind of like how VW and Jeep owners stay loyal to the brand even though they are junk.
Hey now! I currently own a Jeep and owned two VWs... But I do agree quality-wise they are junk. But there may be no other vehicle that performs similarly in the category. In the case of my Wrangler, there literally is no other vehicle in the category. Find me another 4WD truck-frame dual solid-axle vehicle with removable top and doors. If Toyota made one I'd buy it instead. I think Ducatis are in the same kind of category. For many of them, there really isn't anything that competes directly and there's that X factor that makes you willing to put up with some faults.
Quote
Same thing with BMW and Harley. Expensive, unreliable and cost a lot to fix.
Yep.
Quote
I've owned a Lifan GY200 (Chinese dual sport). It cost me $1400 brand new. ... I could buy 3 of them for the cost of a Japanese equivalent.
Excellent point.
A decent Lifan bike for 1/3 of Japanese equivalent no longer surprises me. I own a Chinese oscilloscope that cost $400 and is equivalent in performance and quality to American or European equipment costing $1000 to $1500. That they could sell for 1/3 the price amazed me, but a friend of mine who was the American rep for a Chinese electronics manufacturer explained it to me. He said that in their main factory the workers lived in dorms and the factory ran 24 hours a day. They are not being paid enough to have a house or apartment. If they have any transportation it is a shared junk car or motor scooter. But, many of those workers are satisfied. Before that they had never had a hot shower in their life. They hike in from 50 miles away to apply for jobs there.
Quote from: pliskin on August 31, 2018, 07:10:00 AM
I've always heard Ducati's are pretty unreliable and riddled with all kinds of gremlins
Commuted daily for about 10k miles on my monster with no major issues to report, so far.
Bad motorcycles?
Jawa, CZ and MZ.
The eastern European 2 stroke unholy trinity!
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/mz_ts250-1_supafive.html
Quote from: MaxD on August 31, 2018, 08:23:26 AM
A decent Lifan bike for 1/3 of Japanese equivalent no longer surprises me. I own a Chinese oscilloscope that cost $400 and is equivalent in performance and quality to American or European equipment costing $1000 to $1500. That they could sell for 1/3 the price amazed me, but a friend of mine who was the American rep for a Chinese electronics manufacturer explained it to me. He said that in their main factory the workers lived in dorms and the factory ran 24 hours a day. They are not being paid enough to have a house or apartment. If they have any transportation it is a shared junk car or motor scooter. But, many of those workers are satisfied. Before that they had never had a hot shower in their life. They hike in from 50 miles away to apply for jobs there.
I am a little leery of Chinese "equivalent" nowadays. Don't own an oscilloscope, but I've got Chinese T shirts, yea they were cheap, but 2 months and 2-3 washes later, one of them is opening up a seam in my underarm. I have some 20yr old T shirts that look like crap but hold up well - get this, made I think in Bangladesh or Indonesia or Cambodia. Just not china.
My thought is, there is a part deep in there somewhere that will fail leaving you thinking ... why the Fruck did they not put in a little bit better stitch or bolt or part ... when its all done by machine anyway. LOL, so you have to buy another ...
Now no way around it in some cases, cos even the jap labeled stuff is actually Chinese. That's how jap companies even warranty them, the Chinese guys will give them the replacements free cos they warrantee it to the jap companies (which is just a Japanese shell for the Chinese one), and when the warranty runs out, you'd have to buy it from the Chinese people.
Cool.
Buddha.
Rickman...back in the 70's during my Dirt Bike Days, I had a friend with a Rickman dirt bike....it broke on a regular basis and Buzzkilled so many rides we finally had to tell the owner he wasn't welcome on any rides. On the bikes behalf...the owner was terrible with any kind of maintenance, Rickman's my be reliable? I was only around one...and it was always broken down.
I think they had Zundapp engines :icon_eek:
Quote from: MaxD on August 29, 2018, 07:27:14 AM
A users group like this one makes a huge difference in making a bike worth maintaining long term--it is effectively a large step up in the quality of the machine and the rewards of owning it. And, it is just a lot more fun to have the community of knowledgeable users to swap information with than it is to be stuck trying to figure everything out all by yourself. The reduction of the hassle factor and the enjoyment of discussing the issues with other owners make the ownership experience much better.
+1 for that thought - it also implies that the bike is a keeper - here would not be enthusiastic users if the bike was crap!