Quote from: Cal PriceBefore you can ride, even a 50cc scoot here you have to take the CBT, compusory basic training. It is supposed to be a couple of hours in class, a couple of hours riding on "off road" tarmac, exercises and the like and a couple of hours out and about, usually on a 125cc bike. When I turned up, old geezer, and a couple of 17yr olds, The instructor talked for five minutes about riding gear then said "You won't learn bugger-all" in the classroom so lets go straight to the bikes. It was a really good informative "fun" day.
Here if you pass the written-test, hazard perception (another computer game) and practical ridden test on a 125cc you are stuck with a 33hp (about) for 2 years so a lot of peaople follw the CBT with three or fours days "direct access" training on a 500 then test. That is the difficult bit but remember to take as much from it as you can and enjoy it. You never ever know as much as you would like to know or think you know, but never stop enjoying it.

Holy cow Mr. Price...!!!  All that work over here and ya might get a pilots license.  Here in NYC to become a cab driver you must have a suspended license and speak absolutely no english except in relation to money and a few expletives.  PS...never took the MSF course but i do plan to,  After i change my sheets that is... :nana:

I think it depends on the company that runs the course.

The guy who does the Gray's Harbor course is a duck.  Waste of $100.  I decided *&^% him, I'll learn on my own.
However, now that I need full insurance on my financed F650, I'm taking the course (this time, the Seattle course!) to get a discount.  And it's awesome; I'm learning something from it despite it being a basic course.  And it's all due to the instructors.  The guy who's teaching the current course is quite cool.  I think I should have noticed - the Gray's Harbor instructor drove a truck in on a lovely summer day, and the Seattle instructor rode a bike in on a nasty dark raining Seattle evening.

how much of a discount is it going to give you? when I asked the insurance co, they told me it was like 5 bucks a month.

After 6 months of riding, I took the experienced rider course in indiana.  It was a one day course (~4hrs) and the class was on your own bike.  It was pretty easy and informative.  Due to everyone being close to the same skill level we went right through all of the exercises.  I think it si the same thing as the beginers class minus the begining crap and everything was compressed into a shorter time frame.  Overall the class was excellent, but I am glad I didn't take the beginers course.  it would have been boring and a waste of 3 days.

Juggernaught, many a strange word spoken in jest, re pilots license. My "off road" time was on a private airport perimiter road whilst one of my mates was doing "circuits and bumps" on the main runway. Lucky single guys can afford these things!

I think NY cab drivers also have to be blind in one eye don't they? You have to ride around London on a push-bike for months before "Doing the knowledge" which gets you a black-cab permit. Mini cabs are a bit different, the over-riding qualification seems to be you have to be a Kurdish or Kosovan  racing driver.

Incidently, In Germany you have to take something very like our one-day CBT on a small motorcycle before you can drive a CAR! They recon that this makes the average German car driver much more aware of other road users particularly those on two wheels. I have no experience but it sounds reasonable.

wow, that truly sucks you are having such a bad experience. I can't believe people like that are allowed to teach the MSF course. No wonder there are so many motorcycle fatalities.  

I had ridden dirt bikes for YEARS before I got a street bike and was dead set against taking the MSF course because I "knew it all." After much convincing from others, I signed up and paid a hefty fee ($400) to take the MSF in NY. Within two hours of being on the range I was glad I had taken the course. Most of the things that applied to offroad are considered bad habits for the street. I'm glad I didn't learn the hard way!  :mrgreen: Also, I learned a LOT about different types of gear and they even showed us examples of jackets, boots, helmets, pants, and rain gear.

I will sign up for the advanced class in a couple of years and renew my insurance discount!  

Quote from: Cal PriceIncidently, In Germany you have to take something very like our one-day CBT on a small motorcycle before you can drive a CAR! They recon that this makes the average German car driver much more aware of other road users particularly those on two wheels. I have no experience but it sounds reasonable.

COOL! I have said 100 times that should be policy in the US!! People would be much better and more aware drivers if they had to spend some time on two wheels before piloting a 1 ton cage!  

okay I stand corrected.

Figured out the problem... one of the two teachers was totally new at this.  

The other, more experianced teacher did almost all of today's class.  Wow.. I honestly feel like today was worth.. $100.  So, while I didn't get my money's worth, I AM a better rider.  Also, after reflecting a bit, a good 90% of the class benefited from yesterday and the day before..

I'll sum it up with:

4mo+ of riding? Already know how to ride on dirt, etc? Buy proficient motorcycling, and read it.  Then read it again.  I hope you can do this in the time I spent fri night and saturday learning how to ride a motorcycle. Then, take the experianced rider course (ERC).  I think that's what I'll be taking next.


The more experianced teacher was awesome.  His name is karl snell, and really taught me a lot.  oh.. he asked me to come back in 2 years and teach for the MSF.. he said I had excellent 'natural skill'.. awesome..


I also got a cool patch, sticker, and el cheapo pin.

As the more experianced teach said:
patch: $5.
sticker: $2
pin: $243, so keep track of it.. lol

Regarding the instructor who thought the student's liter bike was "OK"... the instructor is in a tough position.  If they told everyone "start with a 125, 250 or maybe a 500", nobody would take them seriously.  They have to deal with riders who come in with too much bike week in and week out.  It wouldn't be productive to be honest with them.  BTW,  I thought I could handle a large bike until I took MSF; once I was done with MSF, even the GS500 was intimidating the first time.  But if they had told me that a GS500 would be intimidating on day 1, I might not have given them my full attention.

You mention that 6 of the people in the course thought they knew how to ride,  but couldn't do a cone weave.  But you also suggest that anybody with 6+ months of riding should skip the course.  I think what you're saying is "anybody LIKE ME with 6+ months of riding should skip it... but those other idiots... they should take MSF every 6 months until they get it right".   Unfortunately, when you write that MSF is a waste of time for riders with 6+ months experience, you won't know if the person reading is "like you" or "like THEM".  To be on the safe side, it's best to just say "take the course, and see for yourself if you really know the basics".  Too many people decide they've "got it down".

For my part, the MSF was challenging for me to:
-do the box figure-8's
-keep accelerating through the 180-degree turn
and
-keep my head cranked way, way around during the turns

Even though the cone weave was a "piece o'cake", just practicing those few things made the MSF worth it for me.  Having taken the MSF means that I keep the weight on the rear wheel better in turns, look through the turn, and know how to move my but to the outside in a tight slow turn.
...oh, and I get a 10% discount on all non-sale items at the local parts/accesories shop (see the MSF website for a list of retailers that give discounts).

Quote from: Rema1000..............You mention that 6 of the people in the course thought they knew how to ride,  but couldn't do a cone weave.  But you also suggest that anybody with 6+ months of riding should skip the course.  I think what you're saying is "anybody LIKE ME with 6+ months of riding should skip it... but those other idiots... they should take MSF every 6 months until they get it right".   .............

no.  What I said was that my MSF class was like that.  I don't think they are all taught the same.  I also think someone with 6mo experiance should take the ERC, and stand behind that.

And it's not an 'idiot' thing.  They aren't idiots for HAVING experience, it's more like 'acting like' they have experience.  And yes, there were all idiots.  They would screw up bigtime, then point out how other people in the class were doing things wrong that really weren't that bad.

I keep hearing my MSF instructors say "Look through the turn!" or "Turn your head!" They should be able to tell because they are observing our ability and habits. I am/was green. Hadn't been on bike since teenage days on a Harley mini at my cousin's in farmland Illinois.

Fortunately the MSF range is about 4 miles from my house. My plan is to go there when they aren't training and run the couse over and over and over... The intermediate course requires your own bike - work in progress - and I want to take it ASAP.

The idea is to build skill until it is instinctive. The dangerous situations don't give you time to think, "Gee. I believe this would be a good way to react." By then you may be a statistic.

Congratulations!  
I still feel cheated out of a day though. But that is the wide variation from state to state.

We ought to start a sticky thread that records MSF prices, the amount of time spent, and the bikes used. Would be interesting reading (or depressing come to think of it).

Quote from: se7enty7no.  What I said was that my MSF class was like that.  I don't think they are all taught the same.  I also think someone with 6mo experiance should take the ERC, and stand behind that.

Sorry to get it wrong.  It sounds like your class was so bad, that it didn't even help the 6 idiots!  Dang.  I can see how that could turn you off to MSF.  And based on your experiences, the MSF would be a waste of time for lots of people.  Hopefully, it was just a problem caused by that one instructor.

We had two guys in our basic MSF class who had been riding for YEARS on their 'Hogs' and one of them almost failed. I would NEVER say "oh, well if you have ridden for 6 months, go with ERC", because, quite frankly, a LOT of people are just plain lucky to be alive.   :lol:

My course was among the best hundred bucks I've ever spent. Two nights of class followed by two mornings of parking lot riding on a provided 250cc with 9 other people. While taking this class enabled me to learn how to ride in general and get my motorcyle class on my license, I figured out over time that putting these two instructors together was a cagey move and actually beneficial. One instructor was this woman who rode a Harley and while she was a good time, didn't totally go by the book wording, instead giving personal experiences which made it easier to understand what to expect. I don't know about you, but reading about riding on bridge grating and what 'should' happen doesn't hold a candle to hearing about her first ride across the Bay Bridge, being gusted around, and getting the shaZam! scared out of her. She also didn't hold any hands and was pretty quick to judge who was about to blow the test, and focused on telling them so and trying to fix whatever problems they were having, leaving the slightly better riders to focus on their own with the limited free time we had. The other guy was this keyed up, anal retentive little BMW rider who was very by the book, had no patience, and gave no real life experiences. In hindsight, the interesting thing about the instructors is that they totally played off each other and the mix of their riding experience and teaching styles was really cool, a lot better than someone reading through a book and cracking a whip at you. Not only that, but the instructors avoided all mention of what was a "good" bike or "bad" bike, what size you should start with, etc, instead focusing on the techniques that apply to riding any bike. It kind of knocked my socks off to hear that your instructors were initially endorsing a 750 and being lax about a beginner with a total rocket of a bike in their class. But that's me. Anyway, my course was awesome and if I had passed only by acing a written test, I think I'd be a pretty sucky rider.

Quote from: sevenbucks..............The other guy was this keyed up, anal retentive little BMW rider who was very by the book, had no patience, and gave no real life experiences...............

sort of similar to what happened to me.  the 'other' guy was a keyed up, somewhat anal retentive bmw rider.  In hindsight, I think his personality ("I" am always right, any suggestions, and every else is wrong") is different from mine and a lot from the 'better' instructor (who rode a triumph sprint 955 (995?)st...

Sorry to hear you had such a nasty experience.  I would be sure to report it to the MSF people, as they don't want to hear that kind of thing.

Reminds me of when I took the MSF.  The instructors were both in their late 20's and engaged.  The man was really laid back most of the time.  He did the range setup and moved all the bikes.  The woman was just the opposite. Her focus was more on providing pointers and helping our technique.  Together they made a good team, I thought.

As for the class itself, I had a blast.  The guy seemed in a hurry for some reason, causing a couple of the slower learners to suffer.  The only "seasoned rider", a Harley rider constantly yapping about how experienced he was, passed with 1 point to spare.  He attributed it to "not being used to the small bikes".  Yeah, Rrright!  As a side point, this guy wouldn't let alone the "crotch rocket crowd" and was very vocal in class.  Then he found out that both instructors ride CBR's.   :lol:

Three people dropped out.  One girl high-sided a 125 out of a wheelie on the first day and decided she had enough.  The other was asked to leave after showing up 20 minutes late.  The third student just couldn't figure out the clutch, and was asked to come back for the next course.

All said I thought it was a good course and well worth the $20 I paid to get in.  We have it good in IL, it's free.  

Quote from: ghettoriggedWe had two guys in our basic MSF class who had been riding for YEARS on their 'Hogs' and one of them almost failed. I would NEVER say "oh, well if you have ridden for 6 months, go with ERC", because, quite frankly, a LOT of people are just plain lucky to be alive.   :lol:

Yep.  The father of a friend of mine has been riding a Harley for longer than I've been alive, but said friend assures me that I ride better than he does... he always drops it on gravel, every time he hits it.

Quote from: GeePOne girl high-sided a 125 out of a wheelie on the first day

How the hell do you do that...?

Quote from: GeeP.....................

All said I thought it was a good course and well worth the $20 I paid to get in.  We have it good in IL, it's free.  

If I had paid $20 I would have been MUCH more than satisfied.  the $250 is ridiculous