Great thread... I love these discussions.  Also I am so glad to see everyone behaving themselves .  Here are the thought from an aspiring biophysical chemist....

God is a cool guy.  I can't understand why so many people have trouble reconciling a 15 billion year-old universe with creationism.  The bible describes the creation of a sky, and earth, oceans, plants and animals, etc in seven days.  So the literalists I can understand having a problem.  but come on people... Jesus Himself taught using parable, so why not the bible?  days, years, epochs... its all the same to the supreme creator of all things, wouldn't you agree?  The take-home point in Genesis is that God created it all.  I personally don't care to split hairs over 7 days of 15 billion years... a wave of his hand, or billions of years of evolution...  God did it in His own sweet time.

And my opinion on religion.  Religion is great, but it is nothing without spirituality.  Religion is believing and following someone else's god..  (i.e. the writers of the Bible, the vatican, or any other religious institution).  spirituality is having found your own connection to God.  A serious connection with a being of greater power is necessary to begin to understand why the religious are .. well .. religious.  Picture a man going to church, doing all the things the pope tells him to do but holding no real connection to God... that would be one miserable man.  so why are so many Christians (Muslims, Buddhists, etc) so content and happy with their lives?  its not the Religion that carries the most weight... it is the Spritiuality.  

I think that this lack of spirituality and/or unwillingness to admit that scripture isn't always a historical account is why many people become so jaded with religion.  they are focusing way too hard on the wrong part of it all... putting the cart before the horse as it were.

my 0.02

Yes ! Yes! We are all "spiritual" to some degree, even us non-can-goists.
deep philosophy here about the human conciousess, do we all tune in to a small part of one great conciousness or do we exist in isolation or a combination of both ? I haven't a clue but for that is the "big" question. Spiritual conciousness and a moral code should see us through and if, if, if I find myself in some celestial dock being judged at some point so be it.

Some religious folk may say that a spiriuality is a God or God substitute but lots of cultures particularly those who were fixated with the passing of the seasons, the Sun and Moon and fertility were spititual without actually believing, say, that the Sun was actually God. Be a pagan, get out more!

Why do some people believe in God?  That's way too complex to answer.

I believe there are 3 things:

Some are taught to believe

Some are looking for a reason for the existence of everything around us and the universe

Some have a belief inside that they can't explain.  They are drawn to believe in their hearts.

I'm in the last group.  I believe in science and the explainations for how the universe was created and our planet.  I believe things evolve and have changed over the millenia. Yet I believe there was something larger that put things into motion.  God made the rules of the universe, physics, evolution, everything really.  When people say the earth was created in 6 days I always think to myself 'How long is a day to the creator?'  A billion years? Half a billion?  Maybe he decides how long a day is.  God created man so we are told.  Maybe it was divine intervention that made the first primate to stand on 2 legs and become more than what it was.  Not sure but it's possible.

Maybe my views are skewed and wrong.  But somehow deep inside I think there is something that is larger than us and incomprehendable... and yet we are connected to it.  

This is just by opinion.  Your mileage may vary.

Go watch Constantine.

I've met alot of Christians in my day, and am related to several...my dad is a devout Catholic and attends Church every Sunday.  He travels for a living so he'll even attend church if he happens to be in New Orleans, New York, or Paris.  But the one thing he has never done, aside from sending me to Catholic schools for fourteen years, is try to sell me on religion.  I honestly believe that the Catholic schools in my neighborhood provided me with an excellent education, potentially better than what I might have received by attending public schools.  The reason why he has never verbally pushed me toward religion is because that's not his personality type, he let me be on such matters.  My point regarding religion is that some people's personalities, for whatever reason, cause them to be more adamant about their faith.  So regardless of what religion they belong to they will approach it with the same vigor, or passivity if that is the case, whether they are Cristian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Hindu.

Regarding the origin of the universe I believe it has always been here...  Nobody or thing created it, it's just always been.  The reason why I believe that is because the recipe just doesn't make sense....How do you get something from nothing?  It's contradictory to everything else that we are taught to believe.  It reminds me of the way that parents will console a child who is afraid of their dark bedroom by telling them that the Boogieman doesn't exist, yet they encourage them to believe in other fictional characters like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and since I'm an athiest I'll throw God into that bunch.

God invented the idea of "cool", right?  So if he is all knowing and understanding, wouldn't he understand why I choose not to believe in him?  He must be aware that he has provided me with a lifetime of contradictions and really can't expect me to, right?.

think of it this way... when you were a kid, maybe I love YOU or dad made you get a shot to protect you from crippling disease.  They loved you, but they hurt you!!!  How terrible and contradictory of them!!!  Ah, but there is a caveate here... your brain/phsyche was underdeveloped and could not comprehend the future consequences of the situation of that day. Your undeveloped mind only understood that your parents put you in pain.  You did not have the ability to think and operate on the same level as your parents.  You were an inferior creature.

same thing with God, Buddah, Allah, whatever diety you choose.

to assume that our feeble minds can understand the reasons and consequences of everything that happens to/around us is pretty arrogant, wouldn't you agree?  So to pass judgement on a diety for being mean to us or putting us in harm's way just doesn't fly with me.

I guess one of the points that is coming through in a lot of these posts is that the thread started with the wrong question.  Rather than asking "why do you believe in God?" perhaps a better question might have been "what is the 'god' you believe in and why?".  Most posters have basically answered that one one way or another.
In response to my blowing my own argument out of the water, I think we all have to admit that if we look far enough into anything, eventually we run out of evidence, either because its not there or because our methods are incapable of detecting it at that point.  When we reach that point, we have stepped onto the ground of "faith".  Its there we have to let our experience and what we have learned so far guide us into what is most consistent with previous evidence and what we already know.  Sometimes we just have to say "I don't know for sure" and wait for more answers.  Science has been doing this for centuries, and if you read "On the Origin of Species" you will see that Darwin used this argument (lack of evidence yet) to bolster his theory in spite of what was already known.

excellent discussion here ,
in the bible , cant remember where exactly, but when i find it, ill post it,
there is a saying something like this

"a day =1000 years, 1000 years = a day." years ago, someone in the scientific community, was trying to disprove?, gods existance, not for sure on that, but i digress, somehow you take the formula ive given , and it essentially matches the age of this planet. a lot of variables in that, ie leap year, different calendars, but somehow it matches up, ill try to find that info/article somewhere

As far as the Bible reference, I think you're looking for

2 Pet. 3: 8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand a years, and a thousand years as one day.[/list:u]I can't help you on the article.  :dunno:

I can't really articulate why I believe in God as well as I'd like, so I'll just point out a few people who have...

One of my favorite books is called Blue Like Jazz. It's just the author's story of what he's learned about life and God. It's not preachy or anything like that, it's more like sitting down and talking to an old friend over coffee. At the Amazon link you can read the first six pages; I'd recommend checking it out, it's written very well and is just a beautiful book.

This story is another good example. It deals with growing up in a religious family, but doubting God and how he worked through that.

Other than the original question, one of the big issues people seem to have is how to understand the Bible. This blog entry has helped me a lot with understanding what the Bible is and how to approach it.

The problem with society is that they like to label everything.  "God" is probably one of the worst things to label as far as human history goes.

What is god?  who is to say it is an entity or spiritual being when noone has actually provided proof of so?  And who knows anything about "spirituality"?  If you read through history, spirituality is basically the idea to strive for the betterment oneself.  Doesn't that pretty much defunct "god" as an entity?

I can't say I believe in "god or JC" ; I am however a catholic.  I believe in their practices..well, most of them.  As with any religion,  there's good and bad practices,  the point of being a good person is to obviously do good things.

Then you come to the conundrum (sp?) that, something that is good for you could be bad for another individual.  How do you resolve that?

The christian bible states that you are to sacrifice all worldly belongings, desires etc and you will be exhaulted in "heaven".  

In books, bibles, etc..."written by man"  ..JC was supposedly a divine individual.  None of these materials ever show JC as being a human, having a family, living a normal life etc.  Why?  because he is used as something that society should strive for.  Does that make it right? I don't know,  to me that is a form of brainwashing.  To depict an individual as divine and holy without stating his other flaws.  This is pretty much for all religion.  It is the sense of one divine individual to strive to be like...buddha, JC, muhammad.  

So you tell me this...what is god again?  to me god is something that was created to supplement  human's nature to have hope and faith.  It is a focal point that human society deem "necessary" to always have.  

I believe in something...whatever you want to call it.   Lets face it,  something out there created us and gave us cognitive advancement.  what it is, we may never find out.  The way things are going with the world,  it doesn't look like we ever will.  God cannot possibly have this plan for the world where there's so much suffering and anguish while others lavish in worldly possessions and belongings.

I believe in faith...i believe in what is right and what is wrong...in god?  i can't tell you until i'm dead....by then if he does exist, i'm sure it will be too late for me.

 

 

Quote from: Ed_in_AzLong ago, in my life as a teenager I tried a brief turn at atheism. I quickly rejected it, since it required such extreme levels of faith, and flew in the face of too much evidence, both scientific and common. There is too much design in the universe, from the simplest level to the most complex. Plus, who set off the big bang?. To believe, have unmovable faith in, betting your life, and perhaps eternity that all that exists was the result of some random actions that themselves are impossible, with no intelligent intervention involved, requires throwing too much evidence to the contrary, and too much valuable gray matter out the window for me.

Agnostism was never a personal option. If you move beyond "there is no god" to "maybe", you've just admitted the potential existence of a being whose power we humans cannot fully grasp. If such a being exists, it's easy to conceive it might expect something from the sentient beings it created. To believe and have unmovable faith that you are immune to any possible requirements of a creator, is too illogical for me.

I can't say i believe in an entity....I can say i believe in something...whether that be my own personal faith or hope is not important.  What important is I refuse to believe in is an entity that's supposedly ONE.  To me "divinity" is in all of us.  It's a matter of practicing it and applying it to life.   Do i believe in god? yes i do.  do i believe in god as an entity...no i don't.  

It sounds contradictory and confusing...but I suppose that's my way of thinking.  Much like the idea of "god" it is something that is inexplicable.  What's important is I believe in something, and that something gives me hope and faith in life.

Ed, Ed, Ed...

Atheism takes too much faith?!?  Faith in what?

Here is what you said paraphrased:  "There is too much design in the universe, who set off the big bang, random actions that were impossible with no intelligent intervention involved", so, there MUST be a "god".

Listen to that...  If all that is impossible as you just said, too much design, there must be intelligent intervention to make a universe.  Then...

Why oh why do you believe a "god" randomly happened?  Wouldn't it be true that if a mere universe can't just randomly happen a "god" capable of creating this universe CAN"T possibly just happen?  It's perfect logic.  If the lesser of complicated things CAN"T possibly happen randomly then it follows that a MUCH more complicated thing CAN"T randomly happen.  Think about it again...  A WHOLE universe MUST have been "designed" by something, a "god", but that something, that "god" doing the designing wasn't itself designed by something else, it just happened, it's always been?

I mean if you're going to believe so forcefully in a "god" you MUST assume that this "god" was always there and randomly happened, right?  Otherwise "god" has a "god" who created him.  Now, if like some, you say that "god" isn't a "being" but a spiritual sense, then there is no use being in any religion or worshiping anything.  

Besides, if there "is" a God, I'm SURE that he's smart enough to realize that when giving people "free thought" some of them MAY actually use it.  Someone who doesn't make the rules absolutely clear and then punishes them is NOT all knowing, wise, or benevolent.  It's a rigged game unless all parties are aware of the requirements.  And it seems that at least 4/5ths of the world is at risk of losing unless ANY form of believing is OK.

What kills me are the "religious relativists", the ones who say they believe in God and believe the Bible but pick and choose exactly what parts they'll follow.

Believe me, I don't look down on believers, I'm just extremely curious as to WHY you believe so ferverently in something you've never seen, heard, touched, or can ever TRULY know until it's too late.  It's much easier NOT to believe something than to believe.

Comments?

what the bible says, "for god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son. whoever shall believe in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life", basically, the way it goes... you accept god/jc, you end up in heaven. deny him, =hellfire and damnnation. extreme pain, gnashing of teeth, FOREVER. take that as you will. once one ends up there, they are there, never to get out. :dunno:

 

QuoteBesides, if there "is" a God, I'm SURE that he's smart enough to realize that when giving people "free thought" some of them MAY actually use it. Someone who doesn't make the rules absolutely clear and then punishes them is NOT all knowing, wise, or benevolent. It's a rigged game unless all parties are aware of the requirements. And it seems that at least 4/5ths of the world is at risk of losing unless ANY form of believing is OK.

one thing this conversation is missing is the idea of the devil.  one can argue at your point above that if god did give you freethought and choices,  as a good "god believing" person,  you are to control those thoughts.  

like most religions say,  temptations are supposed to be controlled and that will get you in god's good graces.  

i'm not saying i believe in this,  its just an arguement i can see a 'bible" reader would retort with.  My beliefs are from my 2 previous posts.

 

Ed,

A test?  Now THAT is a leap of faith.  Give up your own free will here in the only world you know for something you BELIEVE will happen when you die.  Man!  I could NEVER go that route.  It's EXACTLY what the Muslim suicide bombers think except thet get a better deal, a guaranteed 47 virgins!

The Devil, you bring up another of my points...  If God is perfect, where did the Devil come from, it was his "right-hand-man" back in the day right?  Hmmm, didn't see that coming?  Not so perfect eh?

God doesn't have to function on my terms, he just has to follow logic.  If a universe it too amazing to "just be" then a creator of a universe can't "just be".  How can anyone/anything deny that?

There are just too many flaws in ALL the religous stories of god/creation for me to believe ANY of them.  It's funny, seems to be ALL Christian reasoning here, where are the others?  No Wiccans?  Muslims?  Hindi? Buddist?  Their version of what we've been talikng about are far different that what has been said here...