Quote from: Cal PriceSanta Clause ! hey what, are you trying to tell me something, God(s) may be debatable but I've SEEN santa!

There are about 50 million people in the US under the age of 12. If we assume half of them believe in Saint Nick, that is a sizable population!

The Santa sect has more adherents than Methodism, LDS, Pentecostals, Judaism, etc (although there may be some overlap in memberships)

Yes indeed. In Terry pratchett's discworld book "Small Gods" he expounded a theory that a God's power and influence was proportionate to the number of believers at any given time. That's pretty much what you just said about Santa. I love celebrating other people's festivals.

A long dispute means both parties are wrong.

:lol:

Amen to the comments on the maturity of this discussion.  
For the record, you can't actually be an atheist, because in order to be an atheist you have to KNOW there is no god.  In order to know that you'd have to know everything about everything.  Saying you don't believe there is a god is not the same thing.
Why do a lot of people believe organised religion is just about power?  Well, let's face it, rightly or wrongly religion has a lot of influence in the lives of most people, even if they are non-believers.  If there is a hierarchy to that influence, such as church organisation, there is the possibility that people will occupy positions in that hierarchy who will use that influence (call it power if you like) for ends that do not serve either the organisation or the other members.  Call that abuse of power if you like.  Just because something is open to abuse does not make it wrong or a bad idea.  If it did the NRA would be all washed up, and we'd never have a social security system.  And while many people talk about more liberty, less government control, etc, I don't see anyone in their right mind seriously arguing for a total lack of controls- ie anarchy.
As for God (and yes, I am referring to the concept of a single entity deity here) just wanting to see us all jump, my Bible is really quite clear on this.  It says that God sees us as His children.  He has given us instructions for how our lives will run best (just as a bike manufacturer gives the new owner a manual of instructions) and then offers to help us do what he has asked.  He does not force us, though, and if we choose to go our own way he warns us what will happen and says come back when you're sick of it.  Those of you with kids know that often you tell them something for their own safety and they completely disregard your advice and get hurt.  Is that your fault?  You told them what would keep them safe, told them what would happen if they disregarded your advice.  Short of taking away their freedom, what more could you do?  You in the USA make a great deal of noise about individual freedom, and rightly so.  You would complain bitterly if someone attempted to limit your freedom without a very good reason,( and even then sometimes).  But you will willingly submit to the dictates of someone who you believe knows better than you about a given situation and who has your interests at heart.   This is the position of the christian.

Michael,

Do you take his word (the Bible) literally?  I mean you just said he provided instructions.  If so, there are some pretty strict things in there.  I'd say only about 1% take the Bible literally and follow it to the letter.  Most are religious relativists, they pick and choose what they will and won't follow.  And even if you did follow it literally, it is NOT the same book as was originally written.  It was completely rewritten by the King James people.  So, are you following the correct instructions?  Or are doing what someone else (a mortal man) decided you should do?

So, if your child doesn't listen to EVERYTHING you've laid down for them, at 18 or 21 you banish them?  I'm equating moving out of the house with death.  Not very loving if you ask me!  Do you expect your children to literally worship you?  To take EVERY word you utter as gospel?

Organized religion isn't about power?  Pleeeese...  The Bishops and Cardinals ran things in the days of old.  They still wield quite a bit of power.  Look at the opulence in cathedrals.  The church is where the power was and the money went.  Why do you think many of the colonists left.  To get away from the Church of England.  Look at the Spanish church at the time of Columbus with its inquisition.  All approved by the crown.  The clergy were the only ones who owned books (OK the very rich did too) and could read.  People need to look back at history and see just what "their" church was/did do in the past.

The more you DO know, the less you have reason to believe.  Especially where organized religion is concerned.  Even if there IS a God, I truly doubt that he DEMANDS all the actions that the church says he does.  I mean it's so childish to demand things of beings so far below you.

Trust me here...  There are a LOT of people who say God this and God that who don't really believe it.  But, in a world where 90+% say they do believe, you MUST say in public speech that you do too.

 

Quote from: Ed_in_AzLooks like this thread keeps chugging along, must be perpetual motion. Nobody's thrown a log in the wheels yet. :lol:

And, Joe, I'm assuming you haven't heard, in comparisons with the ancient dead sea scrolls, the kind james Bible is right on the money, so please give up the "lost in translation" argument.

As for your ongoing example of "organized religion", what you are truly referring to is Catholicism (and its own offshoots). That is a Christian denomination with many add-on requirements and rituals not found in the Bible or most protestant denominations.

I have to take issue with a couple of your comments.

The idea that the Dead Sea Scrolls were a great confirmation of the KJV of the Bible is simplistic at best and somewhat dishonest.  The DSS are usually attributed to the community of Jews known as Essenes. The texts are a mixture of writings from the Old Testament and documents related to the procedures of the Essene faith and community rules. The idea that the DSS are just an old Bible that could be compared to the new version is flat wrong. Some of the material remains unidentified today. The New Testament writings which are the basis of Christianity are neither confirmed or denied by the DSS.

As for the second comment on Catholicism, it is important to understand that Protestantism in all its forms is much younger than Catholicism (both Eastern and Western forms) and is based on its perceived failures.  Early Christians were members of a cult, plain and simple. They were charismatic followers of a person with very radical teachings whose existence threatened the social order of both the Romans and the Jews. If you want to practice "original" christianity you would probably be better off with Gnosticism, Mandeism, or Coptic Practices. There is no question that St. Peter would be shocked at modern Catholic practices but surely Jesus would not recognize most of those folks that claim to be his followers today?

Thus saith me ...

 

Thanks callmelenny, you beat me to it.  A lot, of not MOST of the dead sea scrolls are destroyed or unreadable.  The best books are about 75% complete with many containing only a word or two.  Just goes to show that many believers "know not of what they speak", or more importantly, "what they believe".  "Somebody told me this is what I should believe so I do" could sum it up nicely.  People lie!  As I said, I've probably checked into this religion/God thing more than many of the "believers".  I want to know the truth.

Oh, and right on the money, I don't think so.  The only people who claim that are people pushing the KJV of the Bible.  You see, the Dead Sea Scrolls are NOT the Christian Bible.  They are the JEWISH Bible!  Granted the OT and the Torah are very similar.  The DSS's are written in a dead language (archaic hebrew) with several intrepretations for each "word" compared to english so it is impossible to be an exact match and 5 translators will come up with 5 translations.

The New Testament wasn't even written until 200 years after the DSS's.  The DSS's date from 150BC the New Testement was started around 35AD and finished at about 100AD with the earliest know copy dated around 150AD.  And sorry to say it but the NT is REALLY what seperates the Christians from the Jews.  So, as lenny said, the DSS's have NOTHING to do with Christianity.  It ONLY proves that in 150BC someone was writing about creation and all the other OT stuff.

Sorry if my response is "harsh" but don't try to slam me without getting the facts right.  I guess this is the beginning of the end for this thread...

 

Quote from: joerocker
Do you take his word (the Bible) literally?  I mean you just said he provided instructions.  If so, there are some pretty strict things in there.  I'd say only about 1% take the Bible literally and follow it to the letter.  Most are religious relativists, they pick and choose what they will and won't follow.  And even if you did follow it literally, it is NOT the same book as was originally written.  It was completely rewritten by the King James people.  So, are you following the correct instructions?  Or are doing what someone else (a mortal man) decided you should do?

So, if your child doesn't listen to EVERYTHING you've laid down for them, at 18 or 21 you banish them?  I'm equating moving out of the house with death.  Not very loving if you ask me!  Do you expect your children to literally worship you?  To take EVERY word you utter as gospel?

Organized religion isn't about power?  Pleeeese...  The Bishops and Cardinals ran things in the days of old.  They still wield quite a bit of power.  Look at the opulence in cathedrals.  The church is where the power was and the money went.  Why do you think many of the colonists left.  To get away from the Church of England.  Look at the Spanish church at the time of Columbus with its inquisition.  All approved by the crown.  The clergy were the only ones who owned books (OK the very rich did too) and could read.  People need to look back at history and see just what "their" church was/did do in the past.

.

I'm not sure you are hearing what I said on this.  Excuse me if I misunderstand you but let me try and clarify.

Yes, I take the Bible literally.  It means what it says.  You may choose to disagree with what it says but you cannot make it say something other than what it says without doing violence to the language.  Eg, when Genesis says God created the world in six literal days (what else could "evening and morning" mean?) that is exactly what he meant to say.  If you don't want to believe that, for whatever reason, that's your choice but you can't honestly say he meant something else.  Yes, I agree with you, there are a LOT of hard things in the Bible.  It paints the history of God's dealings with people warts and all.  Both the old and new testaments give many examples of the disasters that overtook people who chose to do other than what they were told.  Now many people look at some of these stories and say, How is that loving?  What's the point of that?, or some other criticism.  They are looking at it from a different perspective.  God does not ask us to turn our brains off at the church door, otherwise he would not have said "Come now and let us reason together" (Is. 1:18).  And BTW, Isaiah is one of the books best supported as accurate by the DSS.
As to the unkindness of eventually cutting off a persistently rebellious child, this is not an arbitrary decision but a statement of fact.  "The soul that sins will die."  Because away from God there is no life- He is the originator and sustainer of life.  If you choose to separate yourself from oxygen, you'll die.  It's there if you want it but if you put the bag over your own head, who's fault is it when you die? God says, Turn to me, for why will you die?  It's a choice.  Going to the analogy of the bike and its instruction manual, if you choose not to change the oil ever, your bike will run for quite a while without doing that simple maintenance step.  But eventually it will die.  Is that the manufacturer's fault?  He told you what to do to keep it going, you chose to ignore him, and you suffer the consequences.  The manufacturer doesn't just arbitrarily say, alright I'm going to watch you and if you don't change your oil I'm going to destroy your motor.  
As for the abuse of power by bishops, cardinals, etc, I thought I explained that in the original post.  Just because someone abuses a position doesn't mean the position should be done away with.  Even "atheists" (happy, Dom?) know that "Power corrupts".  Human nature, left to its own devices is selfish and abusive.  That, BTW is the point behind "Lord of the Flies".  It's also brought out over and over in the stories in the Bible.  The point is not what human nature is- we see evidence of that all around us- but what it can be if humans do what their maker tells them.
Finally, I agree with you- a lot of people who say they believe don't really.  I think that's called hypocrisy and most people find it nauseating.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to hold myself up as any paragon of virtue either.  I'm not perfect, as those of you who have read some of the previous threads will know well.  But I hope you all have also seen that I try to be consistent.

Oh well, sorry things went south after my comments. :dunno:

Everyone is entitiled to their opinions but I'm less willing to budge on the facts.

Thus saith me (that's sarcasm  :mrgreen: )

If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree,' Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.  Luke 26:34

All you need to know to live a Christ-like life is in the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount. (Some of 'em are even in the Dead Sea Scrolls)

I'll take responsibility for it.  My last comment was rude.  I think I set the tone and everyone followed suit.  It's tough to break out of it once it's started.  

I apologize.   I'm not always very diplomatic but will try to keep my cool from now on.

I don't believe God... I believe myself.
I don't say believing God is a bad thing. Some people force me to believe what they believe... Or everytime, s/he brings God... These situations are a bad for me. For ex., if I meet someone, s/he tells me that God leads us to meet each other... Me, No, I decide to meet you, no one leads me to meet you.

Anyway, believe what you believe and be happy always!!  

I was driving down the road this weekend and noticed all of the churches with crosses thinking how morbid the idea of displaying a cross actually is.  It made me wonder, if Jesus had fallen to the hands of an executioner's axe would people be wearing axes on pendants?  What if he had had his head lopped off with a guillotine or had been hung by a noose.  Just a wierd idea to me that people display an execution device, that's all.

well the cross didnt directly kill him... :dunno: