I think they should ALL be sent home immediately.  No if-ands-or buts.  As soon as you catch one, it's back to the border.  

Also, I think an employer found hiring an illegal should be fined $100,000 PER incident.  They come here for the jobs, make it VERY uneconomic to get caught hiring one.  It's simple.  Show up, surround the building, snatch the illegals and start tallying up the fine.  For 10 it's a million bucks.  Payable BEFORE the business can open again.  Make it hurt so bad that they won't hire them again.  Like the punitive damages it should be.  Illegals are costing taxpayers a LOT of money.

This "no American is WILLING to do the work" is pure crap.  We have 6% unemployment let them do those jobs until they find something better.  Let the high school kids do them.  Americans won't do the work because we allow people to get away with NOT having to do ANYTHING when unemployed.  Let welfare mothers do those jobs too.  Half can work, the other half watch the kids.  Let them switch every week.  You people in border states, isn't it true that young kids can't get decent jobs in the evening or during summer because grown mexicans have taken them all?  Forget about fast food, any restaurant, any low skill job.

These jobs are completely unskilled, ANYONE can do them with an hour's training.

No licenses, no benefits, no compassion.  You shouldn't be here, you get nothing, and if we catch you you're gone.  It's a shame that people take advantage of our free society.  It's easy to "get lost" underground.  You know what the police say is the biggest problem with illegals?  Hit and run accidents.  They don't have insurance and they don't want to get caught.  So they run.  Yea, these are REAL nice people we've got here huh?  I've seen reports that almost 50% of prisoners in CA are illegals who have committed a serious crime.  Hell, I'd be willing to electrify the border, shoot anyone breaking in.  These people are NOT good for us.  Even doing these jobs they cost more than they contribute.  Anyone making under $20,000 a year is costing you much more than they contribute in taxes.  Much more!  Add a family, a few kids and you're paying out the nose for your "cheap labor".  We'd be better off paying $10 an hour to Americans than $4 an hour to some illegal Mexican.

I read the story today about Utah wanting illegals to have a drivers card.  Not a license but a driving privilege card to only be used for driving.  Not legal ID for bank accounts, boarding planes, etc. and the illegal immigrants rights organizations (can you believe these people exist?) want it stopped.  They have the gall to compare it with the Jews in Germany!  Pleease...  NOT even close you clueless a$$holes!  There is SO big a difference between killing off your own people and trying to keep people who don't belong out.  My God, these people are idiots or think you are.

I read that story and just HAD to see what you people thought...  So tell me, what should be done?

I totally agree that our current illegal worker situation is a problem. Neither political party is eager to fix it though. Business needs a supply of cheap exploitable labor to keep prices low and profits high. Aggressive and significant enforcement of labor laws would do more than building a fence all along the Mexican border.

However, I don't blame illegal workers for coming here, they are doing what most people do, trying to make a better life for their family. They are taking jobs that Americans won't take for similar wages. IF we make it too costly for businesses to employ illegals then wages will rise and natives will go back to working in construction, cleaning chickens, and picking produce.

BUT this will make the cost of everything in our society go up. I for one, am willing to pay (I already pay more for American made stuff)  But it appears that the mindless slobs that waddle down to Wal-Mart to buy their Chinese made yellow ribbon magnets and their Indonesian American Flag shirts just don't make the connection.

My final Buddha Loves You is that it is NOT the job of the states to enforce immigration law, that is a federal duty. Driver's licenses and SS cards are not and should not be citizenship papers. Forcing states to verify the status of DL appicants is an unfunded mandate. If the fed. government thinks we need "papers" to travel domestically then  they should institute such a program.

Neither major political party or the President has the guts to do anything about illegal immigration and border control. Follow the $$$ and you will see why! :x  :x  :x  :x

i smell the tard farm..


illegal immigration while it has its things, why isn't it seen that we are making profit out of their misery. I am an environmentalist and I see both sides of the picture, the side the americans are making money off the illegal aliens that make it across the border as migrant farm workers and those who send money back to their home country to keep the fires burning.

Mexico has more money going back per year back to their home country than all the trade Mexico does with the US.

SO technically both countries are benefitting from the issue of illegal immigration. While there are benefits, the reason it's not legalized is because if it was everyone would be here.

The problem is multi-level. On one hand you say taking jobs out of Americans, but you and I as Americans, would we want to be working on the farm? I am an enviormental guy, and I opt for a cushy desk job over a outdoor always job.  It's not for me.

As for driving licences, it's a touchy issue. On one hand I do agree i would rather have them have a proper licence, since they are already here, but should it be given a sticker / code for being not allowed to start anything else. I guess a DL should be fine, cause in the US you still need the SSN for anything else to be opened..

Personally I think it would be cheaper for all of us in the long run to raise the pay (a bit) and get Americans back into these jobs.  Like I said, there is about 6% unemployment right now.  With a working population of say 100  million that's 6 million "crap jobs" that could/should be filled by Americans tomorrow!  WHY don't unemployed people HAVE to take ANY job that they can get?  I mean where does it say you HAVE to wait for a SIMILAR job?  Why the hell are we PAYING people to SIT and wait for a comparable job?  You take what you can get until you find the job you want.  I mean we all do that now right?  Most people are always looking for the bigger better job right?  I know they're NOT out looking for a job 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

We'll ALWAYS have unskilled people in this country that can fill no-skill jobs.  I just don't get the acceptance by the public of the "refuse" part...  Jobs Americans REFUSE to do.  Know why they refuse?  Because the government, with taxpayer money, is willing to let them off the hook and would rather have people on welfare than working.  In the long run (for every taxpayer) it's MUCH better to have everyone working at a "living" wage, say $10 an hour than to have people getting paid $4 an hour and receiving all kinds of aid.

Illegals are starting their OWN businesses and driving out the American businesses because they're willing to work so cheap.  Landscaping is becoming almost entirely mexican.

Hell, we're NOT competing with China now.  Go to a store like Wal-Mart and look around, 90% of EVERYTHING in there is made in China.  But most of the jobs that the illegals take are NOT really manufacturing.  They do the food/service jobs that would stay here anyway and might raise the cost of your food/services by a few percent.  Don't let them kid you, the money saved by having low cost illegal labor goes RIGHT to profits.  They'd STILL make a ton of money paying a few dollars more.  But, not paying for the services these people use would drop taxes probably by double digits.  I'm not just talking illegals here, I'm talking the whole "working poor" give them a living wage and get them off the government services rolls.

I do blame them for coming here along with the businesses that hire them.  Even where I live I'm beginning to see the local Wal-Mart turning into little mexico.  I'm hearing WAY too much spanish being blabbered...  It's been proven, they break the law to get here, they break the laws while here, and they're nothing but a drain on our economy.  It's FALSE that they are good for us.  We spend FAR more on them than they will ever produce or save with lower cost goods.  Border states are going bankrupt providing for immigrants.

I'm starting to hate just seeing them.  If they'd only learn/speak English and TRY to assimilate into OUR culture I wouldn't mind so much and maybe I could be more tolerant.  But to see them blabbering spanish, flying the mexican flag, having no respect for us and our society...  Well, it makes me angry and it makes me want to get rid of every last one of them.

Well, that's just it isn't it, as far as the job thing goes. You say that you prefer a cushy desk job. What about people who LIKE to work outside and do the jobs quite well? Shouldn't a person in the "service industry" make wages that are comparable to the cushy desk jobs? I definitely agree with a lot of what Lenny and Joe are implying in this thread. I mean is it going to get to a point in this country where the only decent way to make a living is in a cushy desk job? Actually it sounds more like a realistic socialist economy if it comes to that; a few "kings" here and there and everybody else is scraping to get by.  Love the bike and the forum.

C.......

What do you mean give them a drivers license?  When they show up without documents they should be escorted to the holding area to be sent back!  That goes for anything they try to sign up for.  Why do we tolerate this?  Would you allow just anyone to climb through your window at home?  And once they were there to help themselves to your stuff?  It's the same thing when entering a country only it's EVERYONES stuff they're taking.

Each poor families child costs about $6,000 a year JUST to educate.  NONE of the illegals pay anywhere near that in taxes.  Add to that FREE medical care they receive and the costs go through the roof.

There are a LOT of spoiled kids and people on welfare who have NO skills who could very easily do those jobs IF the government wasn't so quick to let people sit on their ass and do nothing.  I had really crappy jobs as a kid, the kinds the mexicans are doing now.  It made me want to get an education and do better.  Now all the kids want to be CEO right out of school and REFUSE to do menial work.  It's CRAP.

And what is all this garbage about "their misery", their "being taken advantage of".  What a load that is.  Compared to making a living picking through a dump it's paradise here.  People don't climb walls and cut fences to be taken advantage of.  They do it to take advantage of the ones whose wall they're climbing.  But you know what, the conditions in mexico are NOT my problem.  Let them CHANGE their own country instead of sneaking into mine and ruining it too.  So, I guess we need to open up everything to anyone who has it worse than we do?  I guess you'd have no problem with an additional 4 billion people coming over here to live?  People willing to break ONE law to get their way are usually willing to break ALL that get in their way to get their way.  Think about that too.

You see ALL these 3rd world countries are the way they are because the people won't do anything to change them.  The U.S. can't take care of everyone in the world.  We already keep most of Africa alive.  We can't afford perpetual welfare nations.  We do our best through trade.  Trade usually slowly helps to build up a country and make it slowly become richer.  But, change MUST come from within.

I think we all basically agree that the citizens of the country (not necessarily the corporations) would ultimately be better off with strict immigration enforcement. BUT we already deport illegals when we catch them unless they apply for political asylum and then they get a hearing first.

My main point is that this can only be accomplished by the federal governement. Texas, Arizona, and California can't just be responsible. I'm not a fan of big federal power but this is clearly one of the jobs they should be doing. When I moved to Texas, I didn't have to prove I was a US citizen to get a DL. A picture ID and a SS card are all I needed. A SS card is a tax document and is already available to foreigners. The only document that proves you are a US citizen is a passport and only about 1/2 of Americans have one of those.

Illegals will continue to stream here as long as they can get away with it. Businesses will continue to hire them because there is no risk involved and the economic benefit is huge. Joerocker's initial suggestions of penalties is a good one IMHO. Current penalties max out around $2000 but the number of INS agents to enforce this is miniscule. I wish they would fire half the f*!ktards working for HSA at the airport and hire Border Patrol and Immigration officers.

In my opinon, trying to shut the border to illegals works as well as trying to shut the borders to drugs. These laws are not enforced for a reason.

I'm pretty naive on this topic but this is how I see it. The real problem is this; when illegal immigrants take American's jobs, only a select few CEO's and business affiliates benefit. Another classic case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Nothing good will come of it.

QuoteLet them CHANGE their own country instead of sneaking into mine and ruining it too.

I doubt they're going to change their system in order to benefit ours, so the only way to solve this is to bring the fight to their doorstep. But how do we go into Mexico and change their system to work with ours? How do we help them to make their country worth living in? This would be easier if their econcomic structure was similar to ours but obviously it's not. And what gives us the right to do so anyways? I'm running into a dead end with this. Ah well, I tried.
This issue is just as screwy as Social Security, but I find it interesting and don't think it should head towards the tard farm. Lovin' that baby G and this forum.

We change them as we are doing in the middle east.  There we're changing things because they have something we need, oil.  Oil is important...  Right now it is the MOST important thing on this earth besides air and water.  OK, and ground to stand on.  Oil is used for practically everything.  Now the problem, crazy and I mean that literally, Muslims own most of it and there is a growing trend within those oil owning countries of anti-westernism.  And some of them are getting dangerously close to having nukes.  So, what to do, what to do...  You change them.  You start with the weakest... Afghanastan.  They were run by a group that EVERYONE in the world thought were crazy.  Blowing up old old old statues and destroying other historic treasures.  Easy target there, nobody would argue they needed changing.  Besides they were supporting bin laden.  Then you go after another troubled country, Iraq.  Saddam had given the world the finger for over 10 years.  Problem was some major countries had been cheating pretty bad making deals with Saddam and were owed a pretty penny.  They balked.  OK, it's been done.  Which leaves Iran (the most important country needing changing because most agree that they're real close to having nukes).  Iran wants it all.  They have like 1/4 of all the middle east oil but think just as Saddam did that they should have it all.  They HATE the west and all it stands for.  Things like freedom.  If you don't believe that Afghanastan and Iraq are not part of a plan to squeeze Iran you're not paying attention.  It's no coincidence that we now have bases on both sides of that country.

You see, trade/business is THE only way to go.  It helps everyone who plays along.  If you're not involved you remain primitive.  Unfortunately there are many in Islam who feel that this is the way to stay, in the 13th century.  But we NEED them to play the business game because we need their oil.  So, for good or evil we have to change them.  We have to get them to play the business game.  Is it right to change a government for our own good?  I say it's fine if the government is an Islamic one.  Do you know how they treat their people?  The women have NO rights.  None, nada.  No leaving the house without totally covering up.  No leaving the house without a male relative escort.  No driving.  No traveling without permission.  Can't eat in public.  Can't use the same line as men.  To me this reminds me of the slavery days.  Sure, change their system... big time!  Oh, and that country I described was one of the "better" ones, Saudi Arabia, a relatively west friendly country.  Others are worse.

Mexico's problem is corruption.  Everything and everybody there is corrupt.  A $100 bill with take care of just about anything.

Social Security just needs to be modified so it can support itself.  The taxes paid need to rise.  There are already private accounts called IRAs.  SS's biggest drain is the children and disabled drawing too.  They account for almost half.  SS is a safety net to keep people from starving in the streets.  Keep it intact and raise the age to collect and the witholding.

Quote from: joerockerI'm starting to hate just seeing them. If they'd only learn/speak English and TRY to assimilate into OUR culture I wouldn't mind so much and maybe I could be more tolerant. But to see them blabbering spanish, flying the mexican flag, having no respect for us and our society... Well, it makes me angry and it makes me want to get rid of every last one of them.

Hmmm... sounds like something a "Native American" might have said a short 150 years ago....  

As for "having no respect for us and our society"....  As a hard-working Mexican (many of them are, you know) would you have respect for a society that allowed (and consisted largely of) THIS?

Quote from: joerockerThere are a LOT of spoiled kids and people on welfare who have NO skills who could very easily do those jobs IF the government wasn't so quick to let people sit on their ass and do nothing. I had really crappy jobs as a kid, the kinds the mexicans are doing now. It made me want to get an education and do better. Now all the kids want to be CEO right out of school and REFUSE to do menial work.

And couldn't you also imagine Mexicans saying:

Quote from: joerockerThere we're changing things because they have something we need, [money]. [Money] is important...

As usual, I'm trying not to take sides on the issue - I actually don't know a whole lot about it.  Just finding interesting points about the stated position of the one who spoke up....  :dunno:

In a bad analogy to another recent discussion, the US comes out sounding a lot like a well-organized religion.  Is THIS what you believe in, Joe?

Quote from: callmelenny

In my opinon, trying to shut the border to illegals works as well as trying to shut the borders to drugs. These laws are not enforced for a reason.

Oh how right you are...  There is a HUGE demand for drugs AND there is a HUGE demand for cheap labor.  The drugs will find a way in regardless of how hard the government tries to stop them.  People want their drugs.  As long as people hire them, illegals will find a way in too.  We MUST stop the demand with HUGE fines to companies who hire illegals.  As said earlier, it's all profit driven.  CEOs these days work for just a few years and take hundreds of millions in salaries and benefits even if they drive the company into the ground.  Make the risk/reward too great and you CAN stop it.  At $100,000 a pop for each illegal the government would actually MAKE money looking for illegals.  It's almost treasonist to hire an illegal knowing what it costs the country.  

But you know what, it will never happen for at least two reasons.  First:  the businesses run the country through campaign contributions.  Business gets what it wants.  And second:  We NEED more workers, or more exactly, we need more people or working/breeding age to keep the population expanding.  You see, everything is a big pyramid scheme.  As long as the population keeps growing there is plenty to give to those at the top.  When populations stagnate (as it is now for white people in the U.S.) growth stops and everything grinds to a halt.  THAT is the big problem with the boomers.  When they were all working/producing/buying/paying taxes everything was grand and expanding.  Now that it's their turn to "collect" there aren't the workers to pay their way.  There aren't enough at the bottom to give to those at the top.

Kerry, you're absolutely right about the native americans.  They got screwed no doubt about it.  But, so has EVERY native group all over the world.  I have German blood, the Romans conquered them, I don't hate Italians.  Someone has invaded everywhere at one time or another and killed or converted every group that was conquered.  BUT, now that I'm living here, I want to keep it the way it is and keep out the invaders.  And we ARE being invaded.  Should the native americans be bitter, I guess maybe, but they've had a LONG time to become part of mainstream society and they haven't.  They continue to play the victim even though the government has done a lot to train them to be regular working citizens.  They have a choice, join society or live in isolation on a reservation.  Same with the blacks, they've been screwed in the past but now several generations later it's done, become part of the existing society and move on.  If the mexicans take over the U.S. I'll have to adapt but I'll fight it until it's inevitable.

OK, now lets not get carried away.  A LOT of lazy people is NOT all.  I'd say 10% are lazy.  Enough as I said before to take the jobs that the illegals have stolen (and that is axactly what they've done) from Americans.  Yes, if you think enough of a country to want to go there, you should respect it (and it's people) enough to assimilate into it.  I wouldn't go to Japan and DEMAND everything be written in English.  I'd learn Japanese.  I wouldn't hang U.S. flags all over my house.  That just keeps you different.  When in Rome you must, out of respect, and to be accepted, act like a Roman!

Money IS important don't you agree?  But you miss the point.  They don't have the money we do.  They want OUR money.  We want to trade.

Is business a religion?  Hmmm...  No, just a better system than most governments.  By and large, business IS good for everyone.  Now a corrupt business isn't and that is what makes the headlines.  If every country had multinational corporations there wouldn't be any wars.  Think about it.  I you owned a piece of my country and I owned a piece of yours would we want to fight?  To possibly wreck the infrastructure and hinder the ability to continue trading?  No!  When people own things in each other's country they are FAR less likely to want to fight.  There is too much to lose.  That is why France/Germany/Russia didn't want the war in Iraq, they were in there with investments legally or not and had a lot to lose.

ok. let's just say we drive all the illegals out of the country...do you really think that the unemployed number will go down?? give me a break! there always will be unemployed people in this country, in any country for that matter. that's just a fact of life. if the unemployed of america want to get off their butt and go get a job, they CAN! it's not like every job in this country is filled...


if you say 6% unemployed figure is low-skilled workers, it might make a little more sense but just to blankly state that the illegals are taking our jobs just doesn't fly with me.

even if we put up a 50 ft "berlin wall", they'll try to get in, hell they'll swim in if they can,. like another said, even if we drive all of them out, we'll still have unemployment, either because of non-qualification for said jobs, laziness, or for whatever reason, it is a win-win/lose-lose situation :dunno:

Well...  This didn't go over well...  Not controversial enough?  Too much?

Just remember there are upwards of 10 MILLION illegals in this country who are stealing your kids' jobs and stealing your tax money.  

So, don't complain to me when things start going downhill.  These are homeless mexicans moving to our country.  Getting/using MUCH more than they're producing.

Look at it this way...  How would you feel if a homeless family decided to move into your backyard?  What if they started using your hose for water and plugged into your outside outlet to get their electricity.  Would you be happy?  Of course not.  That is EXACTLY what is going on here only it's your country and there are millions of families living in our backyard.

Oh, and by the way to all you people who don't think that illegals have any bearing on unemployment...  Do you know how the unemployment numbers are figured?  They count ONLY people collecting unemployment compensation.  Once you drop off the rolls you're considered "jobbed".  The ACTUAL number of unemployed is probably close to double the reported number.  Which would put it right around 10 million people without jobs.  Hmmm, funny how that number is so close to the number of illegals...  Supply and demand maybe?  The number of illegals matches the number of jobs that Americans don't have.

I guess I'll have to think of something to get the sparks flying.

Well, there's at least one example that backs up Rocker's claim that illegals take American jobs away and that would the infamous Walmart case where that retailer replaced its regular P.M. clean-up crew with outside contract labor made up of illegal Mexican aliens.      

I don't know if Walmart got fined [they pleaded ignorance regarding the contract labor].  I do remember that not only were the illegals  not deported but they filed a class action lawsuit against the American retailer for paying wages below the legal rate and they sued not to lose those jobs.  Clearly, Mexican aliens are the beneficiaries of mucho political support in this country.  

And, who can forget the Bush plan for Mexican guest workers?  The offer was that they could legally take jobs that Americans declined to take.  The hell you say!  Mexicans bust their butts to get those jobs and they're not about to let any native born American take it away!   Besides, they are not interested in earning legal status through any guest worker program over a period of time.  No, they want blanket amnesty now.  

Realistically, attempting to repatriate 10 million[?] illegals would constitute  ethnic cleansing according to the standard Clinton set in Kosovo.  :guns:

QuoteRealistically, attempting to repatriate 10 million[?] illegals would constitute ethnic cleansing according to the standard Clinton set in Kosovo

This would be true, if it were only Mexicans, but there are plenty of every type scattered across the USA.  lets see, here in fla, we have mostly, Cubans and Haitians but there are quite a few Mmexicans too traveling with Construction companies and seasonal farm hands.

Hey, what's that noise?  Oh, yeah, it's the sound of Marshall McLuhan rolling in his grave.  :lol:
Seriously, see here for Australia's solution.  This is the gate to Baxter Detention Centre, in the middle of the South Australian desert.  This is where you wait while your case is decided, then if the emperor gives the thumbs down it's back to where you came from.  Apparently it's either heaven on earth or a real hellhole, depending whose propaganda you believe.  I've not been there (I was born in AUS- yes, I know, being able to admit it is the first step to recovery   ) so I can't speak from experience.

immigrants provide a valuable service.  mainly, cheap labor.  they take jobs most of us would stick our noses up at.  i seriously doubt driving out the immigrant labor would have much effect on unemployment as they are taking jobs MOST OF US DON'T WANT.  

plus, they work hard as shaZam!.  i sit my ass behind a desk all day playing on the computer in an air conditioned office.  these guys are working in construction, cleaning, landscaping, fixing your car and otherwise busting their humps all day.  and if they want to take the $20 they earned and send it back to their family in mexico where it will feed them for a month, then by all means, they earned it.  it's not going to hurt you any.

how many of you would get up at the crack of dawn and go sit at the local day laborer camp just hoping to get a job for the day?  not many.  i bet in the same situation, most of us would head to the unemployment line, and then to the couch to watch price is right.

if you want to blame someone for the economic problems we are having, try blaming the government who is spending 500 billion dollars more a year than it brings in, and whose second largest expense after medicare is debt interest.

Quote from: joerockerOh, and by the way to all you people who don't think that illegals have any bearing on unemployment...  Do you know how the unemployment numbers are figured?  They count ONLY people collecting unemployment compensation.  Once you drop off the rolls you're considered "jobbed".

i believe that is incorrect.  they count the number of people actually looking for work that can't find it.  which is to say, if you are looking for a job, but give up because you can't find one for whatever reason, you are no longer considered unemployed.  

anyway, the unemployment rate right now is somewhere around 5.2-5.4%, which historically is not very high.  in the best of times, the unemployment rate doesn't drop below 3% or so.  even in the late 90s when the economy was booming, the unemployment rate never went below 4%

here's some statistics from the department of labor...

http://www.bls.gov/fls/home.htm