The bike wouldn't have mattered.  Sounds to me like Daniely was trying to keep up with MK1incali, who knew the roads better and is a more experienced rider, causing Daniely to drive faster on an unfamiliar road than his skill allowed.  This is how noobs wreck all the time, it seems.
Having totalled this one, though, and having a lot more to learn, I wouldn't recommend buying a bike you can't afford to total again.

Man, sounds like you made out a lot better then the bike. Get better and maybe take this time off to do some reading, there are some great books out there on sport riding. Heal quick!

-ash

Quote from: Mk1inCaliDanny had covered the tail and the seat with fur

sweet

i would love to have a bike that was all furred out

no you wouildnt, they are nasty when wet dude, stink, slopy, mildew and stuff starts growing, dogs and cats will pee on it.  fur works well to learn to stunt, its easy to glue patches inplace and you wouldnt know it was rashed.

Is there any responsibility for an experienced rider, who is riding with someone that is a beginner, to ride at a slower speed?  Especially if he knows there is a blind curve ahead?  I am in no way suggesting that Tony has any responsibility.  Danny is a big boy and climbed on that bike for a reason.  

Just wondering.  Probably shouldn't mention it, but I want to know what you guys think about that.  Is it every man for himself out there or should riders look out for each other?  

I have only riden alone, so I have no idea.  I am really sorry if I offend anyone.

Quote from: Jake DIs there any responsibility for an experienced rider, who is riding with someone that is a beginner, to ride at a slower speed?  Especially if he knows there is a blind curve ahead?  I am in no way suggesting that Tony has any responsibility.  Danny is a big boy and climbed on that bike for a reason.  

Just wondering.  Probably shouldn't mention it, but I want to know what you guys think about that.  Is it every man for himself out there or should riders look out for each other?  

I have only riden alone, so I have no idea.  I am really sorry if I offend anyone.

perhaps....but if you don't have any kind of bike-to-bike communication it's really hard....it sounds like Tony wasn't riding point, and would have had no way to forewarn Danny.....

Oh, my bad.  I thought he was.

See, I used to race mountain bikes.  I rode on some pretty nasty trials a lot.  Steep drops, cranium sized rocks, big hits, etc.  When I was riding with somebody that wasn't as fast as me, or didn't have proper gear, my main concern was for them, a lot of times.  Don't want to carry somebody to the trail head.   Wayyy too much work.  

Anyway. . . I was just wondering if there was any carry over to riding motorcycles on twisty roads.

Glad to hear your ok, sorry about your bike.

Get well and heal.

By the way, I'm really glad you two made it back alive.  When I grew up in Pville I went to high school a few years after four girls crashed into a ditch on the way to pismo for spring break and drowned.  Ever since, the parents in the area have been reluctant to let their teens drive on those curvy roads, rightly because there are a lot of blind turns on the way there (I think James Dean crashed and died around there).

First off, Dan,
Sorry to hear about your crash. heal quick and keep us posted on how you're doin! Are they setting you up with any kind of rehab for your injuries, or is it just an R&R sort of thing?

Jake,
    I think there's a bit of both, but the majority of the responsibility rests with the rider themself. If you've never been in a group ride (I've only been on a couple) it pays to let folks know you're inexperienced. However when you're out there, don't necessarily expect folks to alter their riding style. There was an earlier post about group riders watching the bike in front of them, and I've gotta say that rings very true. if everyone is used to a fast pace, they might sink back into that unawares. I think it takes more conscious thought to ride within your personal limits when you're in a group, but it's your responsibility to do so. After all, you only have to overcook one corner, right?

that being said, hi-five for taking it easy on folks when MTB'ing. I road with a bike shop as a total noob years ago, and they were very supportive like that as well. Hell, on my first serious downhills, one guy slowed up to make sure I didn't bail and to give me pointers. That kind of looking out is really awesome. I'm sure the same kind of camaraderie exists with some people on motorcycles,  but the accountability rests first and foremost with yourself.

Regards,
Riz

I've been in that group situation on the moutain bike before.  On a  challenging trail I knew well, following another expert rider into a slick off camber turn. . .  looking at his bike, locked in, while I low sided on some nasty rocks at double digit speeds.   Ouch.

But I can see this same thing happening to me someday.  But for grace, there go I.  And I am certainly glad Danny is okay.  This certainly hasn't dampened his spirits for riding any.  One tough SOB, if you ask me.

Get back out there!!  You've got all my respect, for sure!  Heal quick.

A quick note in defense of MSF: I remember being taught three distinct techniques in my class last year.

1) If you're in a turn and traffic or obstacles block your way, you straighten up and brake hard. This in contrast to staying leaned over and braking, which is a no-no.
2) If you're in a turn and it's too tight, either because your entrance speed was too high or because the radius decreases mid-turn, lean over more. Specifically, push harder on the inside handlebar. I don't know if it's standard procedure, but my particular instructor did stress that this should be the first response when you find yourself wandering toward the outside of a turn.
3) If things are too tight for 2) to work, you can straighten up and scrub off speed with the brakes, then as you hit the outside of the turn, dive back into it. The idea is your speed will now make the rest of the turn manageable.

Of course it's one thing to hear these things andquite another to execute them in panic situations. (It does seem like track days are good times to hone these instincts, I hope to do a couple this season.) But even then, it sounds like that turn was just really vicious and he hit it too fast. Maybe none of those techniques might have worked.

Anyway, glad to hear things seem to be okay, considering. You hate to see crash stories here, but it's good when the crasher survives without too many injuries and in good spirits.

just turning and easing off the throttle and i mean EASEING slivers of throttle off while turning will scrub off GOBS of speed. the reason he says stay into the turn, push harder is your likely to scrub off alot of speed this way and bring things back into more predictable control.  MSF says DO NOT BRAKE WHILE TURNING to new riders as they have not developed the Finness or softer touch/feel for the control needed to brake while turning.  this comes with  and ONLY with time and miles. i do most my braking before a turn,even a hot one, i might continue Mild braking while i settle into my chosen line, it depends on whats going on and who is around me at the time. even if not racing, one can ease of the throttle in a turn and it will tighten up the turn, you just cant CHOP the throttle (let it close all the way or near nothing) then you upset the bike too much and things go pourly from that point.

I do feel at least partly responsible, I have never led a group ride before, and yes, I was in front of Danny by 6-7 car lengths, IIRC, and I do think we were going too fast for the conditions, even with my prior MX and street experience, which is 200 times what Danny has in both hours logged and different bikes ridden.  The corner was a complete surprise, I did not remember it from the prior rides, and there was a complete lack of signage prior.  Not even a 15mph or something to warn you.  

Was I at fault for leading too fast?  Yes.  Was Danny at fault for following at a pace he "should have known" was too fast?  Yes.  

Corrections to prior posts, after talking with Danny about this thread, he did have a year of experience riding a small 4-stroke dirtbike, with the aformentioned quad experience mixed in.  Also, he said his frame was not tweaked, but his subframe was bent to the left a bit.  Everything else was bent as posted above.

Lessons for newbies to take away from this?  Stick to the GS until you are dragging the pegs off, keep good tires/brakes on your bike, GET TO THE TRACK, don't ride any speed over what you feel comfortable since you ARE NOT racing anything or anyone on the street.  Ride the canyons alone until you know the roads and how your bike will react to more throttle/less throttle, brakes mid-corner, shifts in your body positioning, etc etc.

It needs to be a conditioned response to lean it over before standing it up and braking for it to happen in the real world.  You cannot think that fast.

Quote from: D-DayRegardless of training, I think braking is always the strongest instinct when feeling out of control. It takes a lot of practice to overcome that instinct and do the right thing. I don't claim to have reached that point by any measure!!

The only way to overcome the instinct of straightening up the bike is a lot of experience.  

The way to get that experience in a hurry, is to go do some track days.

Nobody in a panic situation is going to lean a bike furher than they ever have to save themselves.  You first have to learn how far you can lean a bike, and then learn to trust that lean angle.

Now if I wasn't racing bikes at the time, I would never have had the skills and speed of decision making to have come up with the solution.

Moral of the story, there is never a stock answer to what to do in a emergency situation, but the track is your best hope to survive on the street.

Paul

Hi everyone, sorry to hear about your crash Danny, but glad you're okay! I'm new to this site and to riding. I took the MSF class last year in June and got my bike in July. Interesting info here in this thread, but I didn't get to finish reading it all yet. (Gotta get to sleep... got work in the morning.) But I wanted to post first... I have some questions for you more experienced riders.

First is in reference to the quote above... You said practice is the best way to overcome the instinct of braking and/or straightening up the bike when feeling out of control (such as in a turn)...  is a lot of experience; and that track days are a good way to get experience quick.  

Do you think someone as new as I am to riding should do track days already? I only have about 1500 miles on my bike so far. I have been on some group rides, but I tend to take turns pretty slow because I am still nervous about learning my lean angle on my bike. (Something I need to work on.) I ride at my own pace within my own limits, and the people I ride with go at their pace and they're cool with that. I'm a new female rider, so granted I may not be quite as "daring" as some of you guys are, but I want to learn how to better take turns (leaning), so any info you all could give me would be greatly appreciated.  

Danny,

I have to admit that I have been watching you online with some apprehension since selling you my GS last year.  I was hurt when you guys (Danny and Tony) insinuated that it was in poor condition, and very surprised when you sold it with barely any more miles on the clock than when it left here.  

I, being a bit fatalistic am glad to see people grabbing life and shaking the piss out of it while they can, and buying the CBR sounded like a kid chasing his dream to me.  But, your posts here and on BARF had me concerned about the bike's condition, and your overall riding mentality.  

The chain incident shook me up, and talk about blasting to 130mph, didn't help.  I am saddend to hear that you seriously wadded the bike this time, and genuinely hope that you pick your next bike and subsequent lines more carefully.  I still believe that a supersport is an OK bike to learn on, just wear your gear, and keep the real speed for the track.

Heal up quick, get back on two wheels, look me up when you are in the Sierras, and I'll show you some real roads.  Plus from where you'll be a quater mile behind you'll love the sound of my TL with the new full race Yosh and Ti cans.

Aaron

Quote from: aplitzwhen you are in the Sierras, and I'll show you some real roads.  Plus from where you'll be a quater mile behind you'll love the sound of my TL with the new full race Yosh and Ti cans.

Aaron

we need to get together this summer


<--- lives in Reno

Quote from: LadyJules31

Hi everyone, sorry to hear about your crash Danny, but glad you're okay! I'm new to this site and to riding. I took the MSF class last year in June and got my bike in July. Interesting info here in this thread, but I didn't get to finish reading it all yet. (Gotta get to sleep... got work in the morning.) But I wanted to post first... I have some questions for you more experienced riders.

First is in reference to the quote above... You said practice is the best way to overcome the instinct of braking and/or straightening up the bike when feeling out of control (such as in a turn)...  is a lot of experience; and that track days are a good way to get experience quick.  

Do you think someone as new as I am to riding should do track days already? I only have about 1500 miles on my bike so far. I have been on some group rides, but I tend to take turns pretty slow because I am still nervous about learning my lean angle on my bike. (Something I need to work on.) I ride at my own pace within my own limits, and the people I ride with go at their pace and they're cool with that. I'm a new female rider, so granted I may not be quite as "daring" as some of you guys are, but I want to learn how to better take turns (leaning), so any info you all could give me would be greatly appreciated.  

Track days are a good experience for anyone at any level. They are not a place to learn how to ride a bike though. But if you feel comfortable on a bike, then please do a track day. They all should have a beginner class with control riders that can give you help, sometimes one-on-one. NESBA and STT are a couple of that I can think of in this area.

It takes some saddle time to feel comfortable while leaning a bike. The track environment removes other concerns (cops, debris, animals, oncoming traffic, etc) so you can focus on your riding. Being a female does not make things any different. It is a mind set. On the track, having the bike do something unexpected and be able to recover safely is a confidence booster.

Hey all!

Well wanted to give an update..

Last couple days have been interesting to say the least, pain meds and sleep...rinse, repeat.

The bike is indeed totalled, i get it back tonight and will soon be selling the major parts to pay it off.

Aaron, i aapreciate your concern, i was VERY happy with the GS and in fact I miss it. I am already looking at new bikes (figure ill be back in the saddle in about 4 months), looks like im goin for an SV this time.

As for lessons learned, well there are to many to mention, I can only learn from them and apply them to my new style of riding. As for what happened, there are many different factors, such as not knowing the area, riding WAY above my limits, riding a bike that wasnt the safest vehicle on the road. I hold no one at fault but myself. I can only hope that I learn from my mistakes. I do plan on riding again, and the CBR is repairable (though I wont be repairing it or even riding it again). I plan on looking for a new SV in outstanding condition. I will definately be taking it slow, and will be doing track days. I cant wait.

I did make bad decisions, and I could have done things differently, but to no ones fault but my own I payed the ultimate price, and lived to tell about it. I can only ask that others focus and try harder and learn from their mistakes as I will be. But dont let that stop you from riding, never..

(ill have pics of my gear soon, and the CBR)

just read this now... good to see you came out reasonably ok.

I know how it gets in group rides riding over your head. I've been on more than one that I was riding over my head and had to change lines in the middle of corners because I wasnt paying attention to my line but the like of the rider in front. Scared the hell out of me to have to man-handle the bike and lean it further than my comfort level because I was trying to ride at a speed wich my experience didnt match.

On one of those rides riding on an unknown road way over my head I had several severe tankslappers, and watched a friend be taken away by med-evac chopper after going off a cliff. He turned out ok but coming back from that incident (group decited to return home since the ride was pretty much over anyway), I went down coming back from that crash... kind of a minor accident, the rear slid off me on a bailey bridge (it was raining) so me and the bike just slid down the road at 50mph, didnt hit anything. But I guess it served as karma for me to have been riding so arrogantly earlier that day.

In my 3 years riding the one thing I learned, when on a ride, know who your riding with, make sure they know your experience level, and most importantly, ALLWAYS ride within your own limits, REGARDLESS of how fast they are going, if they lose you, they will (should) wait. If they dont, let them know and if they still dont want to wait dont ride with them. If you cheat and try to keep up when you arent experienced enough it WILL eventually catch up to you and it might hurt you or even worse. (this is strictly street, on a track you "may" be encouraged to folow an instructor's line to learn the track and gradually learn more about your own limits).

I think you will enjoy an sv, awesome bike... a few of my riding buddies have some. One difference, you probably allready know from moving from a gs to a I4 engine, the sv will once again be more twitchy than an I4, so smoothness will be the key. The smoother you can keep it, the better rider you will become (given time ofcourse). I know I have a really long way to go in learning to be a better rider, but it all comes down to practice and experience. Being only 19, I got lots of years left to ride so I have no objection to taking my time and learning to walk before I start to run.

Heal up fast and get back on the horse... riding is an addiction, feed it  :mrgreen:  :lol: