I'm just looking for some responsibility. While I did not get a bad set of bars, the fact that two people did get bars that failed should be enough.  We have gone round and round on this topic before, and Srinath agreed to make future customers aware of the failures; however, he never mentions the problems in such a public way as he advertises their virtues.

I predict that everyone will jump to Srinath's aid, talking about how cool he is, ans such a great resource for the GS community.  Which is irrelevant to the argument.  A crucial component like bars simply should not fail in a non-accident situation.

Friend bought a bike from srinath, and his bars broke within a couple months... dont know the circumstances or even if they were the same bars.. but he did say they were made by him so just remember that.

i like srin and he helps a lot of people including myself, and does a great job with carbs ect. I was just asked to pass on this info.

Quote from: aplitzI'm just looking for some responsibility. While I did not get a bad set of bars, the fact that two people did get bars that failed should be enough.  We have gone round and round on this topic before, and Srinath agreed to make future customers aware of the failures; however, he never mentions the problems in such a public way as he advertises their virtues.

I predict that everyone will jump to Srinath's aid, talking about how cool he is, ans such a great resource for the GS community.  Which is irrelevant to the argument.  A crucial component like bars simply should not fail in a non-accident situation.

OK oddly I have been thinking of how to make people aware ... I should say some broke in an earlier run ... or how ...
OK There are some significant differences in the run that broke and the ones I made after. Also 1 of them broke in a crash. I recalled them all and I found 3 more that were weak, much later ... like 2 months after I recalled them, one broke in a non accident. There - Full disclosure - or not - aplitz your turn to add if needed.

The reasons these are different ...
1. They were 3/16th wall and were welded up and the welds didn't fully penetrate. Then I wanted them smooth and nice looking so my welders assistant was tasked with smoothing the welds. He smoothed them out and I sent it out to people and one broke in a crash. I saw it and immediately knew welds didn't go through, and I got it all back and swapped it.
The 2 weld bars are made with 1/8th wall (thinner yes thinner wall was better for weld penetration) and have a 1/2 inch solid rod inserted in the welds and plug welded to both parts ... the bars will stay in 1 piece after the weld breaks ... In my tests the welds tear, the rod hols it together bending more with less force but its a warning, and it stays in 1 piece long after the welds tear ... I bent it back into a tight close V before the broke and even then ... I had no where to bend it further ...
2. They aren't ground smooth at the welds. the old one for those that got them and the next run they'll remember ... The old ones were smooth as a banana, couldn't even tell they were welded. Looked like it was all bent. The ones with rod inserted have very visible welds.

Now all that is for the 2 weld bars. 4 weld bars were never intended for a GS and never intended for GStwin. I made it for 6 guys that have SV's around my house one of whom lives down the block. I made these wihtout any inserted rods and tested them as well. I'll put up pics in a few mins. I cannot insert rods in these welds cos the welds are too sharp. The 2 welds have 120 degreed welds, these have 2 - 120 and 2 90's ... I cannot insert a rodin the 90, however the weld penetration is really good. Check out the pic you'll know. I had 2 more that I showed them, but since may have scrapped out. But they will get tested in the next batch too.

Pprider - Brian when he bought the bike I told him that I'll give him choice of 2 weld or 4 weld bars and I showed him both. I also told him that those bars were an experimental test piece that were banged about with a 10 foot pole, and he said it was OK - he wanted them. He later stripped the allen heads, and I swapped him for good ones, and then had trouble with the things sliding around, and hence cranked them tighter and tighter and eventually ended up breaking somehitng - I am not sure what, but next week I'll prolly meet him and see. The bars it had gave me lots of trouble, I tried 3 different things before finding one that worked. The other problem was that I made so many of the first and second type I ended up getting all mixed up. The ones I sold I made them all the day before with the best option, just to be sure and somehow ended up sending one wrong one to someone (not Brian) ... he bought the second try whihc was on my bike and I was treating it like a test item, and it was to be swapped out, but Brian wanted to keep it ... BTW these are clip on's, not 2 or 4 welds.

Now aplitz - responsibility - I dont knwo what else I can do for responsibilty. Ironic that you ... who hasn't bought a bar or anything else for that matter (and I am not saying that you need to, many others also haven't and its fine) is the only one complaining, while those that did buy the bars even the first lot, have in the following months (Fall 2003 is the bar break and recall time frame) ordered more stuff like case guards, flanges or jet jobs from me, while you are the only one complaining. That is really hollow dude. You've never seen a single item or piece of work I have done and you complain, and people that buy one, buy more ... OK I hear complaints too, and I do somehting about it, like fix or replace or refund but its few and far between ... so what do I do about your complaining ... Nothing. I am far more ctirical of my work than anyone else can be, and people invariably are blind to their own mistakes, whihc is why I look at everyone's complaints very seriously and use it to re engineer/re think/ re work my process and yours just has nothing in it to guide me ...
Cool.
Srinath.

things break in crashes *shrug*

i myself am very confident that srinath would back any of his work and amend problems with any product he sends out ...

It broke a particular way ... where the weld was supposed to be at the break it was showing a sunburst type pattern, where the inside of that sun burst was plain metal with saw marks ... meaning we never got that section of metal fused ... The cure was thinner wall and more bevelling and filling with weld ... an area that loks like a valley or a trench when 2 bevelled parts are fit together ... and we get it filled with weld, getting that area hot enough to fuse it all the way through ...
Cool.
Srinath.

Well even with all the comments I have seen on the forums I still ante'd up my money and ordered a set of bars.  Why you may ask?

1.  Accidents happen and things break in accidents,  Its just something that happens.  Are you going to complain to Suzuki when the front headlight also breaks in a crash?  No I dont think so.

2.  He was straight up a honest with all the people he made bars for.  When he noticed a problem he recalled them all when he could of just said you bought it as it and left it at that.  Look at how long it took Firestone to admit when they made a faulty product and how many people died from that!

3.  After looking at the bars they look to be much better quality than half the aftermarket bars out there.  I recently bought some drag bars that dont look like they have half the workmanship srinath's bars have.  I trust his more than those that I have currently on my bike.

4.  Life is not without its risks.  Just as the brit SAS say "he who dares wins"


I think everyone who keeps edging this topic alone needs to leave it alone.  If you dont like or trust the bars don't buy them.  Nobody is forcing you to buy them, nobody forced me to.

Don't mean to dogpile on aplitz, but I feel that Srianth has stood and will continue to stand behind his work, I'm honestly not really worried about getting lemon parts from him.  Besides, he's definitely gone beyond the alpha stage of development on his bars, I'm sure he's got the whole gig down and his next batches will be problem-free.  "Live and learn", that's the saying, right? :dunno:

Sorry I missed the boat on your latest bars Srianth, I'm just having trouble with my valves right now and got distracted from putting goodies on my bike.  Also, I've never ordered from you before and I don't have PayPal (I let my account expire)... just because I haven't used it in a year or so.  So, if you PM me with the particulars of when your next batch of bars will be done and how to order I will be happy to get the ball rolling.  Ride safe...

I should start on it tommorow, today my welder had the saw tied up making theft proof window bars for some photo processing shop guy ...  he said he'd finish up by midnight and Tommorow I can ... He's installing tommorow, and some guy is comming by to pick up a big steel railing he was working on all last week, so I get shop time (un supervised) and help him by letting the guy pick up and pay ... whoo hooooo  :lol:
Cool.
Srinath.

Yeah, stuff breaks in crashes, that is inevitable.  Snapping off while cruzing in a parking lot?  Not normal, and utterly unacceptable.  Srinath continues to pass the incudents off as learning experiences.  When they could have just as easily been someone's demise.  

I have done extensive welding, and the only one that ever broke as when my boss forced me to weld a seam in a manner I was directly opposed to.  Welds should never break, the metal should bend first.

Srinath has showed poor understanding of what is required to make good welds, and the 'professionals' that actually do the welding should have their certificates revoked.  To have a weld fail like that, and still call oneself a welder is reprehensible.


Quote:

After looking at the bars they look to be much better quality than half the aftermarket bars out there. I recently bought some drag bars that dont look like they have half the workmanship srinath's bars have. I trust his more than those that I have currently on my bike.

One bar 'looking' better quality over another is a poor peramiter.  I'm sure Srinath's failed bars looked fine prior to the incident, the problem is undetectable with the naked eye.  

This whole defense thing is just nonsense.  We as a community would have collectively hung Dunlop (or any other manufacturer) if their tires (or any vital product) blew out at speed and they claimed some teething issues, then just continued making tires without acknowledging their past failures.  

I realize that this is holding Srinath to a higher standard, but due to our proximity we have to be careful.  We make friendships here easily on GST, and one loss would be too many.

A friend on another board (car focused) that I frequent, similar in many ways to GST, was killed in a car accident, and the whole community was devistated.  Now imagine that it was someone's homemade trailing arm failed causing the wreck.  That makes things different.

People can do what they want.  Ride with whatever gear you feel works, but I will continue to fill in the gap when disclosure is forgotten.

To defend srinath, the weld on these bars that I received are great. I have no regrets having these bars on my bike. On another note, after riding with these for a couple of hours this weekend, deffinitely need to get use to them, but I love em. I'm 5'8", anyone shorter that this may feel that they have to reach pretty far forward. These would be perfect for the taller people who want the sportbike feel.

Thanks again srinath.

Quote from: aplitz
<snippage>
This whole defense thing is just nonsense.  We as a community would have collectively hung Dunlop (or any other manufacturer) if their tires (or any vital product) blew out at speed and they claimed some teething issues, then just continued making tires without acknowledging their past failures.  

I realize that this is holding Srinath to a higher standard, but due to our proximity we have to be careful.  We make friendships here easily on GST, and one loss would be too many.

A friend on another board (car focused) that I frequent, similar in many ways to GST, was killed in a car accident, and the whole community was devistated.  Now imagine that it was someone's homemade trailing arm failed causing the wreck.  That makes things different.

People can do what they want.  Ride with whatever gear you feel works, but I will continue to fill in the gap when disclosure is forgotten.

Aplitz - What do you suggest I do ...
Cool.
Srinath.

I think he would have you stop making handle bars.  

Going on two years.  Maybe Ford should include a disclaimer on all their cars: "We had some Pintos explode in the '70's, just thought you should know."  Or GM: "We used to put the gas tanks outside the frame on these trucks but not any more."

If the design flaw has been corrected, then why keep beating this horse?  Doesn't matter to me.  I've got an '89 that was born with the nicest little clip-ons.

Srianth, you need to staple a big sign to your forehead saying "I suck at welding because I goofed up on a batch of handlebars a while back", and anytime you do or supervise manufacture of metalwork for the remainder of your life, you need to disclose every flawed piece of work you ever manufactured to all your potential customers.  Make a list and photocopy it.  Come on, what's your problem? :mrgreen:

As for me, I'll take a set of those bars.  I live dangerously.  How's the current batch coming along?

OK then Since I haven't heard anyhting more from aplitz ... I guess the disclosure is what he's looking for ... or maybe he's not checked back into this thread.
In any case, no one has emailed me about not wanting the bars, so the 3 I got are going to the 3 that first ordered (you know who you are and OK tommorow morning EST 9am is the deadline for a cancel if you need to). I have few more cut, some of which will be bent in the testing ... so prolly have 3 or more, I'll send it to powdercoat and have it ready to go Thursday.
So I guess this topic is closed, till I start selling handle bars again I guess.
BTW the anamolies in commercial metal ... This is insane ...
My new 89 broke 2 header bolts ... the 2 lower ones, one was broken almost flush with the motor, the other about 3 threads out. I start drilling and extracting and tapping etc ... the one that broke flush went in about 3-5 mins of drilling and I got the taps out and cleaned up the threads and its now taking the original 8mm bolt albeit with the first 3 threads chewed up ... OK the other one ... I drilled it for hours, breaking several drill bits and my arms and chest, and ruined a set of extractors from sears and ... my lefties made no mark on these, neither did the dewalts I had, ... nothing ... till I used the titanium coated Costco 150 or whatever drill set ... you know one that's got all the numbered and the lettered drills as well as the 1/64th ... They did the job but it was neither fast nor easy ... and I drilled the bolt very much center in ... eventually I got it all drilled and have 5/16 helicoil in it ... BUT WTF ... one bolt is cheese, the other bolt is from hell ... Not hiding in that excuse, the steel was fine ... we just didn't weld it well, and ground off what we did weld when the bars broke. Its just an anecdote. I bend and test a few bars in every lot I make, whihc is why I ended up making so many more for the 6 I wanted to make for the SV people.
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: Jake D
If the design flaw has been corrected, then why keep beating this horse?  Doesn't matter to me.  I've got an '89 that was born with the nicest little clip-ons.

The problem is not a design flaw, rather a failure to correctly weld a joint.  It is my understanding that the same welder is doing the current bars.  How could a 'professional' so completely botch a simple weld job?  I would no longer trust their work, there are some failures too huge to forget.

Quote from: Jake D

Going on two years.  Maybe Ford should include a disclaimer on all their cars: "We had some Pintos explode in the '70's, just thought you should know."  Or GM: "We used to put the gas tanks outside the frame on these trucks but not any more."

If the design flaw has been corrected, then why keep beating this horse?  Doesn't matter to me.  I've got an '89 that was born with the nicest little clip-ons.

Actually, I would like to see them have long lasting ramifications for terrible feats of engineering.  Especially Ford/Firestone and Chevy for those gas tanks.  For the most part, people are aware of these well-publicised atrocities.  Here on GST we have a huge turnover rate due to the beginner nature of the GS.  Many people here now were not around when this all went down.  They might think, 'Wow, great price on a set of bars.'  Without realizing that they are being made by someone who has had problems with metalurgy in the past, that could have ended someone's life.

Quote from: aplitz

Quote from: Jake D
If the design flaw has been corrected, then why keep beating this horse?  Doesn't matter to me.  I've got an '89 that was born with the nicest little clip-ons.

The problem is not a design flaw, rather a failure to correctly weld a joint.  It is my understanding that the same welder is doing the current bars.  How could a 'professional' so completely botch a simple weld job?  I would no longer trust their work, there are some failures too huge to forget.

Its that + wrong material choice ... 3/16th wall with a tight fit on the parts would need some serious bevelling, I wasn't aware of that, and he's used to welding gates and doors and rainings where he has access to all sides ... of the item ... And yea he's not a very experienced automotive welder ... after this happened, I found a guy who was a much better welder and got more ideas from him and had my guy talk to him as well. Hence the idea to go thinner tubing more bevelling and the rod insert and plug weld idea. That whole 3/16th was a wrong choice. Thicker is better ... not ... 1/8th is plenty thick, rod insert or not and we improved our jigs and bevelling etc to be more certain. And believe it or not, there have been more crashes, mercdude and one guy in Florida I forget who ... where the bars weren't even damaged after direct impact. Not trusting someone takes more than not knowing how best to do somehitng. he didn't wiggle out, he didnt start acting flaky when I told him the bars are breaking ... he re welded them all after figuring out better ways to do it all free ...  Listen, I wish it never had happened to and its really awful ... but get this straight. The first one broke in a crash into a truck ... I recalled them all ... I talked to my welder before that and he said bring them back ... he knew it was hit by a truck, nothign can be expected to survive ... he at once put the users safety into highest priority, The recall was out loud and clear and I had hit everyone with PM's too within hours of the first crash notice. The breaking happened over a month later. In under a week I had swap out replacements ready to go with rods inserted in and plug welded ... get your facts straight ... He waited a month+ and then had the break happen.  In reality ... recall notices are to be viewed at very seriously ...
Cool.
Srinath.

In the past you have told me to get the facts straight.  I know what happened, its been explained.  I thought we agreed that no weld should break at all.  The weld should be so strong that it just bends the whole bar.  I don't car if it ocurred in contact with a truck, the fact that it broke means that its brittle nature probably would have reared its head in time.

As far as desing flaw goes.  Your original thickness of bar could have correctly been welded.  The problem was not so much design as technique.  Who cares if you talked to some other welder?  You are not doing the welding, so how could that really help?  Third hand information at best.  The last time we went over this you did not even know what a plug weld was until I described it, not exactly reassuring.  

I dn't care if you continue to produce, your conscience is not my concern, but the uninitiated do not deserve to be maimed by the ill welds of a man with inadequate experience/skills.

okay, in a nut shell u just got GSTWINS behind the scene: srinath's bars. You know the story, chose. Buy his products or not. i think it this point its a dead issue. Yes, things could have happened but he took the necessary steps to recall the bars while making  the new design stronger.  Sounds like this guy is running for office or something  :dunno:

Quote from: aplitzIn the past you have told me to get the facts straight.  I know what happened, its been explained.  I thought we agreed that no weld should break at all.  The weld should be so strong that it just bends the whole bar.  I don't car if it ocurred in contact with a truck, the fact that it broke means that its brittle nature probably would have reared its head in time.

As far as desing flaw goes.  Your original thickness of bar could have correctly been welded.  The problem was not so much design as technique.  Who cares if you talked to some other welder?  You are doing the welding, so how could that really help?  Third hand information at best.  The last time we went over this you did not even know what a plug weld was until I described it, not exactly reassuring.  

I dn't care if you continue to produce, your conscience is not my concern, but the uninitiated do not deserve to be maimed by the ill welds of a man with inadequate experience/skills.

Once again ... get your facts straight ... weld shouldn't break yes. Agreed, accident or not. True.
I am not doing the welding, I have a welder (a person) that was/is. We had to talk to another welder (another person) for some details on his machine and what setup, wire thickness and I dont know what else exactly ... That guy also told me to bevel it well into a hollow point look ... and I didn't know it was called plug welding ... I knew what were were doing, how and why ... The name - heck who cares. I am not a welder and have not ever tried or passed off as one here or anywhere else.
The un initiated - OK I'll post a sticky with disclaminer/warning. bars - Buy at your risk. OK happy. And link it to this thread.
Also the 3/16 bar ... ironically we never got that bar in over 2+ dozen attempts of welding them ... we never had one instance where it didn't break at the weld. Not 1. The bar was so super thick ...  a 10 foot pole over it and with tremendous force and it will break with a good deep "Dooonk" noise ... and we always saw metal with saw marks at the break. 1/8th wall ... we got the welds to stay and the metal next to the weld to break/tear/bend at the first try ... Simply put ... we never figured oot how to ... if you can do it and show me. 7/8th OD 3/16th wall DOM tubing cut into a 30 degree bevel and flipped over to make a 120 degree sharp bend ... No theory, I'd have to see pics. We dont believe its possible because to bend or deform, the tubing will ahve to change shape near the weld from a circle to an ovalish, and this tubing is faaar too thick and strong to do that.
Cool.
Srinath.