c,

And just how are you supposed to PREEMPT a terrorist attack if you follow the old ways?  I mean our system (and it held up pretty well until now) is set up to prove and punish AFTER you commit a crime.  How can you work to preempt the commission of a terrorist crime using the old ways?  If I'm right and the Muslim extrimists are planning another MAJOR attack, we have to prevent it right?  And you simply CAN'T prevent it if you can't actively try to get the info that it IS going to happen.  Sadly, you MUST "spy" on people in the country to know what is planned.  YES?

Exactly where does it say an inalienable right to PRIVACY?

Why why why, would anyone in the government want to search you or my property?  Come on, let's be reasonable about this.  Have you ever seen a story in the news about someone complaining about government agents moving in and searching their house?  Not around here anyway.  Maybe in an Arab community where there ARE extremists living.

I think for the average normal law abiding citizen it means nothing.

Quote from: joerockerBut you ARE free!

Secret (non-public record) warrants...  The ability to hold someone for an indeterminate amount of time for being a "terrorist" without actually charging them with anything...  There are thousands more...  It's all loss of rights, privacy, and freedom.

It's a slippery slope...  Each freedom you lose makes the next freedom easier to lose.

You need to study your history books a little.  Perhaps you can tell me the first rights the Jews lost in Germany prior to WWII...  Then what rights did they lose?  Then, what was next?

And...  About your nukes...  If they get a nuke, it's all over.  The US will shaZam!-can every country in the Middle-East and WWIII will ensue...  It will be the end of the world as we know it!!!!!          

You know...  Kinda like the 80's and the Russians...   :lol:  'cause they were "finger on the button" the whole time!    

:lol:

You want to talk about freedoms lost.  How about back when Lincoln took away the STATES rights?  The states pretty much LOST their ability to self-govern.  The federal government became the final say in everything.  Sure, a FEW token things were left for the states but anything important is
decided by the feds.

Why do you think the EU is having such a hard time with the constitution?  Many of the "big" member countries don't want to give up too much of their sovranty.

You're "freedoms" have been cut so severely already by your government that it isn't funny.  You CAN'T drive without a seatbelt.  You HAVE to have insurance.  Most states REQUIRE a helmet.  Even the fact that you NEED a license to drive is taking away a freedom.  You are taxed like crazy for things you have no control of or desire to fund.  The list goes on and on and on...

You're right, the Jews slowly lost their rights.  And I'd like the SAME thing to happen HERE with the Muslims.  Go to my "Muslim bombing" thread.  Look at what's in the Quran.  Look at what "peaceful" Muslims are taught.

You and I are NOT going to lose ANY rights.  ONLY questionable people will be "targeted".  And that is a GOOD thing.

And you are SO right about nukes.  So, don't you want to at least TRY to stop one from voming into this country?  Or, have you resigned yourself to the fact that someday it's going to happen anyway so why bother?  Now THAT is a scary attitude!  Don't "infringe" on some assholes rights and throw away the entire world as we know it!!!!  Wow!

Joerocker wrote:
"You CAN'T drive without a seatbelt. You HAVE to have insurance. Most states REQUIRE a helmet. Even the fact that you NEED a license to drive is taking away a freedom. You are taxed like crazy for things you have no control of or desire to fund. The list goes on and on and on... "

Note: those are all state laws.  You complain about the feds taking freedoms that should belong to states, and the cite cases where states have taken away rights.
Once again, you're an idiot and you've just proven it and I am smarter and I win.
Thanks for playin'.  Blow me!

Quote from: joerockerYou're right, the Jews slowly lost their rights.  And I'd like the SAME thing to happen HERE with the Muslims.  Go to my "Muslim bombing" thread.  Look at what's in the Quran.  Look at what "peaceful" Muslims are taught.

You and I are NOT going to lose ANY rights.  ONLY questionable people will be "targeted".  And that is a GOOD thing.

+

Quote from: joerockerYou're "freedoms" have been cut so severely already by your government that it isn't funny.

Are you saying that my rights are already gone and I should just give up and accept being moved into the Ghetto to wait for the death train?  Are you a f%$king idiot?  We, the people, need to fight for every right we have and fight  for MORE and MORE and MORE rights.  That is the only way to keep your freedom.  If you let your freedom go stale, it will be taken bit by bit.

Quote from: joerockerYou're right, the Jews slowly lost their rights.  And I'd like the SAME thing to happen HERE with the Muslims.

Rights?  The Jews lost their LIVES.  Don't you get it?!?  It starts with one group... Then it's another and another...  Just like the loss of your rights.  First the small rights... Then more and more... Bigger and bigger.  First it would be the "terrorists."  Then it moves to the "trouble makers."  Then the "questionable."  There's no end...  Read 1984 again...  Or perhaps for the first time.  Do some research on what it's really like to live in a "secured" government.  In short order it will be illegal to say, "I think the government is doing something wrong."  You will be an enemy of the state if you have an opinion.  I'd rather be dead.

LIVE FREE OR DIE!

Quote from: joerockerAnd you are SO right about nukes.  So, don't you want to at least TRY to stop one from voming into this country?  Or, have you resigned yourself to the fact that someday it's going to happen anyway so why bother?  Now THAT is a scary attitude!  Don't "infringe" on some assholes rights and throw away the entire world as we know it!!!!  Wow!

:lol: You totally missed my point on this one...

And exactly HOW are YOU different?  You are intolerant of those with a difference of opinion.  You would have my speech squelched.  Take a look at yourself from OUTSIDE.  Look back and you will see I'm right.  At least I let you talk without resorting to namecalling at the earliest opportunity!

I think it is YOU who are missing a crucial point.

The Jews in Germany weren't going around BRAGGING that they were going to bring the country down.  They weren't going around blowing things up.  

Muslims HAVE declared a religious WAR against EVERYONE who isn't a Muslim.  They've DONE this.  They are also DOING it all over the world.  They are blowing PEOPLE up.  EVERY day you hear of another Muslim bombing.

GET IT?

WE NEED TO STOP MUSLIM TERRORISTS!

If you think you've lost a lot of freedoms already (and yes we have, too many) what do you think is going to happen, not if, but WHEN these nutcases DO attack us again?  This is NOTHING compared to the hell we'll ALL be living in if these bastards succede!

I've BEEN to their country.  I KNOW how wacked they are.  Yes, MOST if not ALL.

Again, you're BLIND.  Get out of your comportable safe cocoon.



PS...  We WON'T "shaZam! can" every country in the mideast.  We CAN'T.  They have 1/4-1/2 the worlds oil and EVERYONE needs that.  If you nuke it, you can't pump it.  If you'd think it through you'd realize that.  Problem is, you don't think it through.  You're full of facts but can't seem to extrapolate a future conclusion from them.

And the other guy,  it all BEGAN with the feds taking away states rights with Lincoln.  Some of you are so one-dimentional.  The states do MORE than their fair share of taking your rights away too.  I figured since this IS a motorcycle forum you could relate to driving.  Guess I overestimated you.  And yes, almost daily the feds ARE taking more and more states rights away.

Quote from: joerockerAnd exactly HOW are YOU different?  You are intolerant of those with a difference of opinion.  You would have my speech squelched.  Take a look at yourself from OUTSIDE.  Look back and you will see I'm right.  

Anyone else but me find that funny? :dunno:

I thought it was.

Quote from: joerockerWE NEED TO STOP MUSLIM TERRORISTS!

with all due respect, duh.

profiling up to a point is reasonable.  if you're looking for muslim extremists, it's probably reasonable to look mainly at muslims.

however, once you begin needlessly antagonizing a specific group you're just  gonna piss them off.

if it weren't for attitudes like yours, Osama Bin Laden wouldn't have any supporters.

contrary to popular belief, there really aren't that many people falling all over themselves to die for their religion.  if it weren't for the perception that the arabic people are under siege and that their land is being taken from them (Palestine, a perpetual US military presence) there'd be a lot fewer people willing to take up arms.

muslims who are struggling to make a life for themselves this country look at people like you and say, "what am i doing?  these people all hate us anyway."

and as for profiling, muslims aren't the only terrorist threat.  prior to 9-11, the largest terrorist attack on this nation was perpetrated by a white supremicist who considered himself a hero trying to defend the principles this nation was founded upon.

so, the next time you think about profiling, you might want to look in a mirror.


cheers,
will

Wants free speech- except for minorities, gays, women, etc.
Hates religion, but preaches incessantly and puts you down if you don't ascribe
Self-proclaimed proud independent thinker, but puts you down the second you have an idea that isn't his.
(My personal favorite:) Embodies the stereotype of southern white trash racist by stereotyping every ethnic/gender/religious group out there.

and the list goes on....

indestructable,

Just being on this planet is antagonizing these people.  Simply being non Muslim antagonizes these people.

A suicide bomber strikes EVERY day.  That isn't a large enough group of volunteers to worry about?

I said it before, a Muslim living in the west AS a westerner is NOT a true Muslim in the eyes of the majority of Muslims.  It's like a Catholic who practices birth control.  The Pope says NO, they do it anyway.  Get it?  They are NOT true Catholics.  It's ALL of NOTHING.  Back to relativism again.  The TRUE Muslims living in the mideast, indonesia, etc. are our worry.  AND the ones planted here to do us harm.

Yes, there are crazy white people too.  These people are EXTREMELY upset about the rights taken by the government.  They have gone WAY too far. They ARE upset about the liberties that HAVE been lost since the founding of this country.  The US as it is now is NOTHING like what the founders envisioned/created.  Agreed?   But, their threat palls in comparison to the threat by Islam.

Jake, Casi, you don't even HAVE a flowchart.  You simply parrot the party line.  Someone else did your thinking for you and you swallow it hook line and sinker.

I would tear apart your "chart", but it would be a waste of my time explaining my positions AGAIN.

Again, nothing constructive to add so the namecalling...

Let me say something about Palestine AGAIN.  It is such an insignificant "problem" that it's laughable that people still believe it's the crux of the mideast problems.  Irael takes up less than 1% of the total mideast (Arab) land area.  The Palestinians less than half of that.  It's comparable to the WHOLE US squabbeling over an area about the size of Vermont and the 5 million or so people who live there.  It is NOT the problem, it is an excuse to cover deeper lying hostility.  It is simply a "cause" to rally behind.  The reality is they want Israel gone and the infidels gone too.  Britian OWNED that land.  Britian decided to give it back.  The Arabs simply declared it invalid and have been using it as an excuse ever since.

Quote from: joerockerJake, Casi, you don't even HAVE a flowchart.  You simply parrot the party line.  Someone else did your thinking for you and you swallow it hook line and sinker.

I would tear apart your "chart", but it would be a waste of my time explaining my positions AGAIN.

Again, nothing constructive to add so the namecalling...

this coming from the "man" who has relentlessly been spewing Klan rhetoric... :lol:

ok.  true catholics wouldn't practice birth control.  but i'll bet the fake Catholics outnumber the true ones.

as the entire world modernizes (kansas notwithstanding) people throw off traditions that they now find error with.

the same thing is happening with Islam.  i've got turkish friends who are muslims.  these are not dangerous people.  by your estimation, they aren't real muslims.  but i think that people like this are set to take over the religion given a chance.

in christianity, you've got people who bomb clinics and kill doctors vs. people like my parents.  in Islam, you've got suicide bombers vs. people like my Turkish friends.

the more backward sections of the religions see that they're a dying breed.  clerics wishing to maintain power and people who just plain fear change take up arms.  they point at the problems of the modern world and say, "this is because we've turned away from God (Allah)."  the weak minded and people who've been truly put-upon by life follow them.

if you get right down to it, Islam is no more inherently xenophobic than Christianity.  Christianity has by and large progressed to fit the modern world.  Islam is doing the same, but it's not as far along.  the political situation in the middle east (rich corrupt regimes, poor put upon people, foreign military presences) provides a lot of young cannon fodder who feel they have nothing to lose.


i'm not an authority on what the founders vision for this country was.  i know that it didn't involve standing armies.  it probably didn't involve social security either.  the realities of the modern world (realities they could not have foreseen) have made these things desirable.

cheers,
will

Quote from: joerockerAnd exactly HOW are YOU different?   You are intolerant of those with a difference of opinion.  You would have my speech squelched.

I'm not a racist f%$k-stick...  You are.  I don't HATE the majority of races in the world...  You do.  I'm not intolerant of people that are different than me...  You are.

I'm about 100,000 time MORE tolerant than you are.  You're a racist f%$k-stick... I am not.  I want equality for ALL races, ALL nationalities, ALL religions (or lack there of), BOTH sexes...  ALL PEOPLE.  You do not.

I don't want to "squelch" your speech...  Keep talking.  I want everyone to know who you are.  I want everyone to know what you think...  That way we can watch you.  You are a hate monger.  YOU are the enemy of this country and everyone in it.  Your hate will destroy you and everyone around you.

Quote from: joerockerThe Jews in Germany weren't going around BRAGGING that they were going to bring the country down.  They weren't going around blowing things up.  

Muslims HAVE declared a religious WAR against EVERYONE who isn't a Muslim.  They've DONE this.  They are also DOING it all over the world.  They are blowing PEOPLE up.  EVERY day you hear of another Muslim bombing.

That's odd...  I work with Muslims...  I have Muslim friends...  Why haven't they killed me yet?   :dunno:  Are they just "Lazy Minorities?"  :dunno:  Are they just waiting for the right time to stop being my friend/co-worker and blow me up?   :dunno:

Get a grip.  Not every Russian was trying to kill us in the 80's and not every Muslim or Middle-Easterner is trying to kill us now.  Really...  Get a grip.

Quote from: joerockerIf you think you've lost a lot of freedoms already (and yes we have, too many) what do you think is going to happen, not if, but WHEN these nutcases DO attack us again?  This is NOTHING compared to the hell we'll ALL be living in if these bastards succede!

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin  

Quote from: joerockerWe WON'T "shaZam! can" every country in the mideast.  We CAN'T.  They have 1/4-1/2 the worlds oil and EVERYONE needs that.  If you nuke it, you can't pump it.

Did I say nuke?  You said nuke...  I said "shaZam!-Can."  That doesn't imply nuke to me...  But, I'm a little closer to sanity.  

And BTW...  You should hang out here Joey...

Some of them are "your" kind of people (that means racist).

indestructableman,

I LOVE IT!!  What a response!  Cool, calm, well reasoned, thoughtful, thought provoking.  There IS hope for a few of you.

Unlike the "cursers".  Watch out, you're gonna pop a vessel!

Oh, how I hope you're right.  BUT, what I see doesn't confirm it.  I see it getting worse between the west and the Muslims.  I see Iran working on a nuke "power" system when they have about 1/4 of the mideast oil reserves.  They don't NEED another form of power.  It's the bombings that really worry me.  Is it me or has that REALLY increased?  Are they REALLY mellowing?  Are they REALLY ready to go against their book?  Against the teachings?

You REALLY need to go to an Islamic country before you make up your mind.  First hand experience will teach you a lot.  You can't really accurately judge people by the FEW who have left their homeland for the west.  As I said, relativism.  They are picking and choosing what they will follow.  The Quran says in black and white that THEY are NOT good Muslims.  They are no better than the infidels.  Sorry...

Cheers to you too...

Thank you again for a reasonable post.

while i've never been to a muslim country, my parents did live in Iran for awhile, so i'm not completely talking out of my nether regions.

Iman,

I've been thinking about your post...  Ask your parents about Iran, beg them for the truth.  Ask your friend WHY he left his Muslim country.  Even though as Muslim states go, Turkey is at the bottom religiously speaking.  The REAL Muslims don't even aknowledge Turkey as a REAL Muslim country.  The Iraqis freaked out when they heard some of them might enter their lands at the beginning of the war.  Almost as bad as the western infidels coming in.

The difference I think between radical Muslims and Christians is that in Islam it's an "institutional" radicalism and in Christianity it's splinter groups.  Sure a clinic here or there may be targeted by some wackos but with Islam, it's all over the world.  You must agree on that point.

I also disagree with your xenophobe point.  Christianity is ACTIVELY out drumming up new business.  Islam however, seem like Christianity was hundreds of years ago during the conquests of the world.  You know, the find the natives and convert or kill them routine.

I'm also not aware of anything in the Bible/torah like you find in the Quran about convert or kill.  The Quran is BLANTENT in its call for conversion/killing.

Again, you can thank Lincoln for the ruination of our country.  The blacks may love him but everyone else should loath him.  He ALSO started the income tax "temporarily" to fund the civil war.  We ALL know how temporary that was.  As for unforseen realities, yes, I wholeheartedly agree.  Noone could have forseen what the world would have become.

I'd rather have a world/country with a few productive, SELF governing people doing what they wish, than a world/country where there are a lot of people and everyones things get thrown into one big pot to be shared.  I believe in survival of the fittest, you reap what you sow, I keep what's mine if you can't make it, get those genes out of the pool.  Liberals want everyone to have the same things as everyone else regardless of ability and work.

Just a basic difference of opinion.