You are missing the point, those stupid people cost the rest of us money, in insurance (both bike and health) and their deaths affect others, fatherless/motherless childer and such

Quote from: thirdmanSo do you think there should be manditory helmet laws?

I answer yes to that question, but as someone with a Libertarian outlook I kind of choke on the answer.

I have no problem with idiots killing themselves but unfortunately the rest of us often bear the costs of their idiocy.

I think seatbelts laws are necessary for the same reasons.

I consider it a minor inconvenience to the individual for a large benefit to the society. I guess that is the test I apply when considering the situation.

I realize this can be a slippery slope.

Quote from: gazingwaYou are missing the point, those stupid people cost the rest of us money, in insurance (both bike and health) and their deaths affect others, fatherless/motherless childer and such

Hear hear.  I hate paying for other people to be stupid.

Quote from: oppy00this is the kind of big-government crap we're heading towards.

Yup...

Welcome to the world of foamy corners and lukewarm coffee...

Save us from ourselves!

Why does a hairdryer have a warning that says, "Do no use in bath."  It's a sad state of affairs when we spend more money keeping ignorant people from killing themselves than we do trying to rid our country of ignorance.

Educate the masses and let people handle their own safety.

Quote from: RVertigo
Educate the masses and let people handle their own safety.

You can't educate the unwilling.  "The Mobb", if you will, has always existed, and likely always will.  The ease with which a lawsuit over the most frivolous claims can be launched and won has made everyone pander to the lowest common denominator.  Makes you want to be a hermit.

Quote from: JazzzzzYou can't educate the unwilling.  "The Mobb", if you will, has always existed, and likely always will.

Yep.

Quote from: callmelennyI consider it a minor inconvenience to the individual for a large benefit to the society. I guess that is the test I apply when considering the situation.

Yep.

Call it a slippery slope, but I'll take that over an untenable bluff any day.



"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."  -MLK Jr.

Yea Helmet laws ... I cant even keep my eyes open at 40 MPH with face sheild open ... OK I guess that's why so many crashes ... they cant see where they going ...
BTW cost to public ... I cant accept that ... I'd say Dont treat it from public funds, its gotta be in his insurance ... Like a smokers ins policy ... Buy your own medical, wear it on your wrist, if its helmeted only, and you get an accident un helmeted, then you pay for it. Else Insurance covers it. I hate it when I am in doubt as to if my motorcycle accident will be taken care of by my insurance ... I want them to say Motorcycle on my card ...  :lol:  ... but Might as well say Helmet or no helmet ...
Cool.
Srinath.

I like that...  If you wreck without a DOT helmet, you have to pay out-of-pocket for your treatment...

Sounds like a great law to me.  Then people can go without if they want...  and the rest of us will be covered by insurance and/or county hospitals.

Quote from: RVertigoI like that...  If you wreck without a DOT helmet, you have to pay out-of-pocket for your treatment...

But that doesn't take care of 3, 4, and 5 on my list.  I worry particularly about 4.

Sure it does...  It places the safety of children where it belongs, on the parents.

If you say people are too ignorant to know how to protect their children, then that takes us back to education...  

I was sitting in a bar across from the airport in Reno waiting for my ride and I overheard a railroad worker talking about a run-in he had with a stupid parent.  He was letting his little kids ride up and down the train tracks, more-or-less unsupervised.  If a train came along, the helmet on the kid's head wouldn't have don't a damn thing except make him a pretty corpse...  Maybe.

It's not just a helmet that will save someone's life.

The problem with this argument is, where does it stop? If I eat a danish for breakfast once a week, can the insurance company say that they won't pay for my heart bypass, because I didn't take care of myself?

I've always rather been on the fence about laws that restrict our freedom. I recall being against the seatbelt law when it passed, but I'd never be caught without my seatbelt. I think all drugs should be legalized; if people want to fry themselves on drugs, let them...let's empty out the prisons and put the money toward rehab.

Where I have the hardest time is with children. They can't advocate for themselves, so if the government needs to, so be it. Insofar as mandatory-helmet laws... once again, I'm torn between the government restricting our freedoms and rights, and the ugly, torn lives of people left behind after fatal (or maiming) motorcycle accidents.

At this point, I probably lean closer to personal freedom, but I won't be caught dead without my helmet (if you'll pardon the 'spression).

pandy
who takes a deep breath after having been serious for so long!!  :mrgreen:

Quote from: RVertigoI like that...  If you wreck without a DOT helmet, you have to pay out-of-pocket for your treatment...

Sounds like a great law to me.  Then people can go without if they want...  and the rest of us will be covered by insurance and/or county hospitals.

The prisons and drugs thing ... Yea I actually have an idea ... If you are convicted of a crime, depending on the seriousness of the crime, instead of being tossed in jail for 100's of years ... you can opt to give up a spare organ. Like Manslaughter 2 will be a kidney, murder 2 will be a lung, Murder 1 is everything. Just harvest all ... Heck ... if you're committing the crime might as well really pay your debt to society, instead of being a burden on it. Now the nice thing about it. If someone is really repentful, they can go back to their normal life and be a normal human being. Instead of being stuck in jail for 25 years wasting themselves and the states $$$ ... The rest of the judicial process is the same, and heck jail time is still an option. If you're organs are frocked from drug use, Heck, Toss you in prison/detox, and use the organs on a similar druggie who does not have a criminal past. AKA why waste good organs on druggies ... and why let druggies die ... on the off chance that they may reform. How's that. OK fine I am watching too much CSI. Fine now what.
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: RVertigoIf you say people are too ignorant to know how to protect their children, then that takes us back to education...

It's a more difficult process to legally catch a fish than it is to legally raise a child.  That's whacked.

But - by your argument, we shouldn't have laws that prevent parents from starving their children, or locking them in broom closets for hours, or other recognized forms of child abuse.  After all, it's the parents' responsibility...

Oh, Srinath, you need to read Larry Niven.  He took the idea of a future where crimes are punished by giving organs to people who need them, and went from there.  Very intersting reading.

Quote from: RoadstergalBut - by your argument, we shouldn't have laws that prevent parents from starving their children, or locking them in broom closets for hours, or other recognized forms of child abuse.  After all, it's the parents' responsibility...

Every kid needs a good ass-whoopin' from time to time, and parents are terrified to do it these days.

When I was bad, I got whooped...  When I wasn't bad, I didn't get whooped...  I learned pretty fast. :lol:

But...  You're taking an extra step.  Child abuse and neglect are different than putting your kid in the front seat when you have an airbag...  Or letting your kid ride a bicycle/skateboard without a helmet and pads.

Think about the difference in "Child Safety" laws from when our parents were kids to laws now......  Somehow humankind has survived pointy sticks and sharp rocks without the aid of CPS. :dunno:

I've got an idea...

Let's take all the criminals, druggies, debters, and stupid people, put then on a boat and send them to an island to colonize in the name of ...

Oh, I don't know...

Britain.  We'll call the island Australia, or the United States of America (we'd have to send the religious nuts as well).

Or if we are in the modern era...

President Bush wants to colonize Mars and the moon, we'll just send all the 'tards there.  Let the dummies figure out how to breath and eat and all that crap.


"Oh, how simple the world would be, if people weren't here,"  sighed the hippie.


OK, I'm not quite sure where all that came from, :dunno: (bad chinese food, maybe?)  So, I heard a funny joke at church once.  It was about a lady who wanted something that would go from 0-200 really fast.


Her husband bought her a bathroom scale.

That's all I got for this post. Sorry for the randomness.

QuoteThey aren't always killed. Sometimes they end up a vegetable, soaking up either insurance or tax dollars living a brain-dead life in a hospital.

those become organ doners. not like they gonna be fishing the following weekend.

QuoteEvery kid needs a good ass-whoopin' from time to time, and parents are terrified to do it these days.

biggest crock of shineola, few folks cant control thier anger now no kid is spose to get spanked? eat me.

Srinath, I like your idea, but it won't work for a lot of drug users - a large number of chronic drug users have fun diseases like Hepatitis C that preclude organ donation.

Quote from: pizzleboy

Quote from: gazingwaYou are missing the point, those stupid people cost the rest of us money, in insurance (both bike and health) and their deaths affect others, fatherless/motherless childer and such

Hear hear.  I hate paying for other people to be stupid.

Ah but you're treading on the slippery slope.  I've made this point on other boards numerous times, so I guess it's time to trot it out here:

The increase in risk you take on when you move from a car to a motorcycle is much, much greater than the increase in risk you take on when you go from riding with a helmet to riding without a helmet.  I even whipped up a little graph to illustrate it (note, no actual data in this graph, but I think it reflects reality)



So, if we're drawing the line for "stupid", objectively you'd have to put somewhere on that steep slope of increasing risk wouldn't you?  Sure, for a bunch of concientious, gear wearing riders like ourselves, it's easy to point at the squids and helmetless fools and say how crazy and stupid they are.  But for people who drive cars, how crazy and stupid do we look?

jeff

OK Rvertigo - you're not accounting into the fact that people in bikes drive more cautiously and defensively (squids in stretched chromed Hayabusa's not withstanding) and People in SUV's drive while eating, on the cell phone, and spanking their kids ... and you are also not taking into account Total damage in a crash ... just damage to the 1 vehicle that is your point of view, involved in a 2 or more vehicle crash ...
Cool.
Srinath.

:dunno: Huh?  I didn't post the graph...  I was the guy saying that I don't like laws that protect us from ourselves.

I think people that ride motorcycles make better drivers in general. (Yes, squids excluded)...

And... I'd like to see some actual numbers.  I'd guess the crash percentage is about the same between motos and cars...  It's just crashing on a bike is potentially more dangerous.