also, id like to say about biofuels, if you planted every square inch of america with corn, and every crop worked. you still wouldn't have enough fuel to power the transportation sector, never mind electricity generation.

or we could all just start using GS500's all over the world

at least nobody would complain

somebody else (cant remember where) made a point, were already at our max in refineries, so even if opec, or whoever supplies the fuel, ups production, were making as much gas oil, diesel as were able to. any truth to this?

I thought we were supposed to have flying cars by now!!

yamahonkawazuki,

I did a while back.  Know why?  I'll bet they KNEW the end was coming.  Why build a multi-billion dollar refinery if you KNOW there won't be enough oil to keep it busy?  There is also the environmentalists, they FREAK at what a refinery puts out into the land/water/air.

IF this is all true and oil is coming to an end, it IS a major concern and a radical change to life as we know it.  Until (and if) something else is found, we're in for a BIG surprise.

As the price of oil goes up (it's doubled in the last year) it takes the price of EVERYTHING up with it.  Things are going to be pretty expensive this Christmas.

I think there are two main reasons oil is so high.  First is fear of stability in the Middle East.  Iran elected a hard-liner who wants to bring back shari (Islamic) law (women have NO rights again) and he just formed his cabinet out of other hard-liners.  They INSIST (even though they have TONS of oil) that they NEED nuclear power and are starting their program for enrichment again.  IRAN, if equipped with nukes, could hold the oil fields hostage and charge whatever they wanted or cut the supply off completely.  The US knows this and WILL stop them at any cost.  The Afghanistan war was part of this.  The Iraq war was too.  Sort of a chess game.  Position your pieces (army bases in Afghanistan and Iraq) and hopefully the other side will quit.  If not you're ready to pounce quickly.  That oil WILL be protected and free to flow by hook or by crook.

Second is the fear that it's beginning to run out.  Supply and demand.  If it sells as fast as it's being pumped it commands a premium.  Can't wait to see the classifieds next year with the rock bottom prices for SUVs.  Civics will probably sell for more than your Escalade!  Suckers...

We already use bio diesel at work, we changed nothing. I  am the nightshift supervisor for a landfill. My crew runs three tractor/trailer rigs and four pieces of heavy equipment. The way gas prices are going no one who works for me will be able to drive to work in a week or so.
The bio diesel is great stuff...no problems and about four months of use.

We may or may not be running out of oil, we will for sure at some time, production is probably peaking in next few years. Set against that the oil industry when faced with a world price crash in the late 70s stopped all exploration and most development and they have never really got back to the exploration levels since.

Joe makes a point that oil is used for pretty much everything these days and apart from his assertion that all fertilisers are oil-based, I'll agree with his synopsis. We probably use too much fertiliser anyway but that's a different argument.

We can't do much about world reserves of oil, they are either there or they are not. Bio? Someone said there was not enough space to grow all the source crops, that may not be quite right, despite world hunger there is a vast overproduction of many food and non food crops due largely to both covert and overt subsidising of farmers in the industrialised west.

Anyone who has run their own business or who weighs things up without letting the politics of oil get in the way can see that price is a matter of not just supply but demand. In the last five or six years, both China and India have started down the road to become economic superpowers, they have a lot going for them not the least is cheap, some would say slave labour in some industries. What they dont have is oil to drive the economies and meet the needs of people who were once content with a donkey or a pedal-cycle who now all seem to want a Mercedes.

The world price of many scrap metals has rocketed in last few years because China in particular is sucking-in raw materials faster than they can be produced in many cases, hence the price goes up.

So, we have production fears and a huge increase in demand that is simply not going to go away. Find more oil is a short term answer, find alternatives in the longer term reopening the nuclear power debate etc, wind and tidal power could be the answer where I live but ultimatley we have to get used to using less and/or making much better use of what we have.

It's a bit like the Obesity issue, we all know the answer but populations in "western" societies continue to put on weight.

We gotta use less, two wheels good, four wheels bad!

Quote from: joerockerSecond is the fear that it's beginning to run out.  Supply and demand.  If it sells as fast as it's being pumped it commands a premium.  Can't wait to see the classifieds next year with the rock bottom prices for SUVs.  Civics will probably sell for more than your Escalade!  Suckers...

sounds like a good reason to get a scooter.

Quote from: Cal PriceWe gotta use less, two wheels good, four wheels bad!

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  


that's a little harsh, Cal.  couldn't we just say, "four wheels good, two wheels better"?

Noooo... No ghey scooters!

Cal,

The fertilizer thing, I lumped natural gas in with oil since they both usually come from the same place and they're both being used up quickly.  Virtually ALL fertilizer (commercial) is made from a natural gas base stock.

China, oh yeah, I mentioned that one before too.  If we DON'T run out of oil, we'll all be speaking Chinese to do business.  They recently took their currency OFF the dollar standard.  The US government said it was good... BS!  Now there is another economic power for the world to base THEIR currency on.  The US just dropped a notch in prestige.  EVERYTHING is made in China now.  The US doesn't make squat.  Soon we'll be hurting when China "cuts us off" over the Taiwan issue.  They tried to buy a US oil company but that fell through, at least the politicians saw THAT one coming.  If you own a US oil company it's easy to ensure that YOU get the oil.

Oh, and the "working slaves" argument doesn't hold water.  They may be working for "slave wages" ($4 a day) by OUR standards but compared to their neighbors they're living like kings making 4X more than they are.  It's all relative.  "Sweatshops" really are good for the country that is "lucky" enough to get them.  Without them the country would have NOTHING.  These shops trigger other things like shipyards to accept the raw materials, trains/trucks to deliver, increased discretionary income to be spent on "luxuries", etc., and eventually the whole country begins to prosper.  That's how many countries get/got their start.

Indy,
Yes it was harsh, I was parodying the "Animal Farm" thing about legs that one of the members used to use on his/her signature.

Joe,
I never said that "slave" labour or sweatshops were bad for their economy but they are kicking crap out of our industries in the long term, the short term benefit is the price of this that and the other in Walmart but eventually we lose the capacity to Produce. Britain became the production centre of the world and military and economic superpower 'till about 1950, founded on poor working conditions since the Industrial revolution.  The U.S. will have it's 80-100 years and then as you imply China will move into that slot. Unless they tear themselves apart like the "East Block" after the wall came down in Europe it is very difficult to see anyone on the horizon after China.

Natural gas, yes I see your point but you have obviously never smelt the fields in Europe, lucky man, particularly central and Eastern where most of the fertiliser is made from something that you would not mention at a dinner-party! We do that as well and use a lot of nitrogen-fixing crops like clover and legumes of all types.

Good or bad, China ain't going to go away or close down its production facilities so even if vast new oil reserves are discovered and old ones squeezed even more the demand is still likely to keep growing, hence prices rising. If I had the answer I would not be where I am now but I think we have just got to get used to it.

Quote from: Cal PriceIndy,
Yes it was harsh, I was parodying the "Animal Farm" thing about legs that one of the members used to use on his/her signature.

i was playing on that actually.

when the animals first revolt, one of their laws is "two legs bad, four legs good."  later, when some of the elite animals start walking upright they change it to "four legs good, two legs better."

   

Actually, i dont think we will hurt at the pump. On the news, the reporter is saying "Gas prices are spiraling upwards, but whats making them go up?" and it shows a guy standing beside his new porsche filling up. Luckily, we, the people, all seem to have way too much money.

Keep in mind a few things about the oil bidness.

Exxon-Mobil stock up 71% since war started, Haliburton stock up 186% during the same period. During this period US demand for oil has continued to increase despite rising prices.

The oil industry is making record profits, there is no way anyone will build any refineries. A refinery running at 98% is much more profitable than one running at 60% capacity. Market forces dictate that refinery capacity remain below the optimal levels. Environmental folk may oppose refineries at certain locations but the only thing stopping their construction is greed.

Lower oil use makes economic sense for the country but not the industry, that is why it is ridiculous that Bush let the industry write the national energy policy. I don't care what you think of him in other areas, this was a major economic and national security issue. We are reaping exactly what we sowed.

My wife went shopping three different places yesterday and came home for 1 hr in between each trip. She could have halved her travel with five minutes of planning that morning. But like most Americans, she doesn't give it a second thought. Why can't people see the connections between driving and so many other problems we face?

Oy vey, I guess learning to plow with a mule will come in handy some day soon!

on a related note.

i think this video will only make sense if you've seen the ads linking drug money to terrorism.

http://www.greentowel.com/images/qt/GreenTowel_GasMoney.mov

Quote from: joerockerNow convince the minorities to do just that.

Standard Joerocker conversation:

Any Member of the GS Board: I like apples.
Joerocker: f%$king N_ggers and F_ggots, only they like apples.

Point being: Joe, your mere existence on this board has managed to bring down the intelligence level substantially. Chewing on broken glass would be a wonderful option for you.

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I've purchased a lot of stock in a company called Geotech Thermal.  They have purchased the exclusive right to some old Soviet technology where a thermal generator is sunk in a dry well and it sends out a thermal pulse that causes oil to seep back into the well from its outer reserves.  

It is an okay idea.  Expensive and not terribly effective, but I figure, what the heck.  The stock isn't worth crap.  Might as well grab some.  See if it catches on.   They've gotten really good results on the wells being treated here in the States.