Am I a bad person?

I just made a reservation for my road test, tomorrow morning at 9AM!.   I tried to take MSF last week, but the 2 open slots when to other guys waiting for no-show spots.

I've been doing a medium-to-fair bit of riding with and without my roommate (experienced rider), always soliciting pointers and advice.  I've pored over a few groups and sites with information on safe riding habits ( like http://www.msgroup.org/DISCUSS.asp - excellent source).  I've also pointed out a few areas in my riding that need some work and improved on a few of them so far.

Its hard to know what you don't know, but at this point I doubt a beginner course could teach me much about how to handle my bike.  I am more concerned about what i'm missing in the classroom part with the tips and safe habits.  I recently found out that a friend-of-a-friend is MSF certified (instructor), so i'm going to bug him for that information.

Even so, everyone i've talked to sings the praises of MSF, so i'm concerned that I'll be less inclined to take it once I get my endorsement (i'm all but certain that I'll pass.  The only part i'm worried about is watching the little 'swerve' light on the obstacle avoidance).... BUT... at this point, would the experienced rider class be more appropriate for me?

The more I've learned, the less attractive that $250 price tag seems.  I know its worth it, but is it *as* worth it if the higher level class is more appropriate for me?

I have a few friends that have expressed interest in MSF.  If they ever sign up for it, then i'll def. take it with them.... but that seems to be at least a month away.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Beratement?

MSF was helpfull for me....but it also free in my state, so for myself it was a nobrainer.....the fact that you get your endorsement at the end of the class helps as well .....at the very least, try to get some studyng material from MSF course from some one, read through it...i am not sure if it would be worth 250, I think that could imitate all of the driving exersizes (u do it on their bike during MSF though)....as far as theory ask some one for the book and talk to somebody that just finished it recently...good luck on the test tomorrow.....

also...at the end of the season you have a really good chance of walking in the MSF class

Quote from: TarzanBoyI doubt a beginner course could teach me much about how to handle my bike.

You might be surprised....

Quote from: TarzanBoyi'm concerned that I'll be less inclined to take it once I get my endorsement (i'm all but certain that I'll pass.  would the experienced rider class be more appropriate for me?
?

Take it, if not for yourself, then for the rest of us. Unless you've been riding for six months or a year, then the beginner course is likely more to your skill level. Yes, there are some VERY basic things you learn in the beginner course that you likely already know (for example, finding the friction zone and making your little putt-putt go forward ), but there's so much more to the course. They teach you the RIGHT way to do things.

Quote from: TarzanBoyThe more I've learned, the less attractive that $250 price tag seems. I know its worth it, but is it *as* worth it if the higher level class is more appropriate for me?

Yes  

Quote from: TarzanBoyThoughts? Suggestions? Beratement?

No berating here! You're asking valid questions and going through a valid thought process. I've talked to ol' timers who've finally taken the MSF course, and they said they learned something, so I *know* there's something in it for us newbies (I've been riding for a year now, but I still consider myself a newbie).

Good luck with your decision and with your test tomorrow!  

Most people fail the road test due to slow speed maneuvers like weaving and turning. You might want to practice that stuff before going.

Driving down the road in 3 rd gear is not that hard!

The MSF course is a good thing for almost everyone IMHO.

Quote from: callmelennyThe MSF course is a good thing for almost everyone IMHO.

I would agree.  It drills you in important avoidance manuvers like braking and swerving.  Coaches can identify bad habits and give you tips.  Even if you pass the test, take the MSF.  I took it for the insurance break, and learned enough to make it worthwhile.

I took the same route.  Took my road test before the MSF because I got impatient.  The nice thing was, in NYS it takes like 6 weeks after the MSF for the endorsement to get from the MSF to the DMV so you have an actual valid license.  Since I already took the road test, I was good to go.  So that was a good thing.

On the flip side, I am 98% certain that the MSF course prepared me to SAVE MY LIFE on 2 occasions.  If I was riding around with "I passed my road test" I think I could be severely injured or dead right now.

You don't have to be a good rider to pass your road test.  The MSF will give you a fair shot at being a good rider, though.

So please, keep your pre-MSF riding very low-key...  Wait until after your course to do any serious stuff.

It was the best thing I ever did after I had already been riding for 14 years!

Quote from: TarzanBoyAm I a bad person?

Yes.  You are a bad person that's going to die.

OK...  That was mean...  Sorry...

The MSF is really useful.  You should do it...  Before you die. :nana:

Quote from: ChuckOn the flip side, I am 98% certain that the MSF course prepared me to SAVE MY LIFE on 2 occasions.  If I was riding around with "I passed my road test" I think I could be severely injured or dead right now.

I am curious to know what it is they taught you that saved your life... not because I don't believe you... but to see if its something that I may have already picked up from my research and practice.

Also, does anyone know how the experienced rider course differs from the the beginner one?

Quote from: callmelennyMost people fail the road test due to slow speed maneuvers like weaving and turning. You might want to practice that stuff before going.
Driving down the road in 3 rd gear is not that hard!

That shouldn't be a problem for me.  I actually rode onto the little test course they had one time to see if i could take the turns through their cones without hitting anything.   It wasn't a problem then (2wk ago), so i don't expect it will be a problem tomorrow, either.

i got my license without the MSF course. i had been riding for about 3 weeks off and on and did a lot of slow maneuvers in my driveway and such. the couse that i had to take my test on was somewhat easy and i felt quite comfortable at slow speeds. i took it slow and easy after i got my license and still rode with my friend who was an experienced rider. the only reason i didn't take the course was because i would have had to of waited a year to get into. just take it slow and if you don't feel comfortable then don't ride or wait till you can take the class.

Quote from: TarzanBoy
I am curious to know what it is they taught you that saved your life... not because I don't believe you... but to see if its something that I may have already picked up from my research and practice.

The two lessons from the MSF that saved my life:

1. Braking while cornering is dangerous
2. Swerving is faster than braking

This probably triggers your "oh I already know that" sense.  But anyway... these seem like common sense things, but to have the mathematics and physics explained to me was a great help when the heat was on.

Regarding #1, prior to the MSF course, I'd find myself too hot in a corner (don't we all), and I had certainly noticed that when I apply the brakes the handling becomes somewhat strage.  I didn't know what was really going on because I was self-taught at that point, but I figured it was one of those things you have to deal with, and of course going too fast means you put on the brakes.  I hadn't really thought about the implications of how wide the turn becomes in that situation, due to panic and whatnot.

Post-MSF, finding myself in the same situation, I remembered what I'd been taught, and what we drilled (albeit at 20mph, it still works!).  Although they also taught us that it's better to go too slow into the corner and accelerate out, I once again was just going too fast for comfort.  Instead of braking like naive instinct would tell me, I just bit into the corner even farther, noting that had I not done so, the SUV in the oncoming lane would have made quick work of me and my GS.  Life saved.

On #2, I probably wouldn't have died.  But I would have been real unhappy.  I was tooling down the highway, thinking more about the scenery than the traffic when a car in front of me comes to a full stop to save the life of a squirrel or something.  Since my attention was wandering, I noticed too late to brake and I was forced to execute a swerve into the shoulder before I applied maximum braking.  Before MSF I didn't have a chance anyway, because I didn't know what maximum braking is.  Even had I known, that would just have meant I'd hit the car more slowly, but I'd probably still have to learn more about fork repair than I'd otherwise want to at that point.

In any case, the $300 I spent on the MSF course paid for itself.

Of course I should also take heed of other lessons.  Don't go so fast.  Pay attention.  But of course, if you can do that 100% of the time, then you don't need to learn emergency procedures.

Quote from: my00forest
just take it slow and if you don't feel comfortable then don't ride or wait till you can take the class.

I'm not afraid of someone not feeling comfortable.  I'm afraid of someone who feels comfortable and shouldn't.  If you don't read the Hurt Report, read the 55 point summary.

http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html

Quote
24. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

Yes, I'm not hiding the fact that I'm strongly in favor of the MSF course.  There is no downside except for the money spent.  Buy a $200 helmet instead of a $500 one.  Your insurance will be reduced.

The best I can do is give my advice/opinion.  It's commendable that you've decided to ask this forum, but you seem to be looking for reasons to refute the advice to go ahead and take the course.  You have your pride, and you think you know enough.  If you're convinced of that, no amount of discussion in this forum will change that.

But there is never harm in learning more.

I don't like seeing posts in this and other boards announcing the death of one of the members.  We owe it to ourselves to do everything we can to stay alive, for the sake of our friends and family.

I am not paid by or affiliated with the MSF.

I'm not looking for reasons to refute taking the course.  I'm looking for as much information about the beginner MSF course as I can find to determine whether the experienced rider course would be better suited for me at this point.

All 'pride' aside, i'm certainly not a beginner rider anymore (except perhaps, chronologically)... which is definitely a big chunk of the territory covered by the MSF.  To be blunt, a lot of the posters here (and on a few other boards i have visited) have an MSF bias that is so strong that they won't (readily) accept that there are other paths to learning how to ride safely.  

I don't have a problem with that.  From what I have read and heard, MSF imparts a lot of valuable information and instruction... but I do NOT agree that MSF is the only source from which these kinds of tips and safety information can be gleaned.  

Of course money is a factor.  So is time.  Why would I not take an experienced rider course if it will be a better investment and give me more than a beginner MSF course would at this point?

What it boils down to is that I've already been swerving, e-stoping, had to tap my brakes mid-lean (which is not reccomended, i know), shift gears, switch to reserve, etc, etc for a lot more than 18 hours on the road (MSF is 18 hours).  Besides this, i've also been doing a lot of googling on riding habits, and had frequent conversations about riding with my roommate who has ridden for many, many years (yes, he is a responsible rider).

Have i learned it ALL?  No, of course not.   As i posted earlier, I *did* try to get in on an MSF class (was full)... but I can't say that I feel very strongly about how appropriate it would be for me at this point.

I guess the only way to be sure would be to take their tests.  From the little bit i've read about it, i'm reasonably sure that it wouldn't be an issue.

-----------

As an update, I was unable to take my road test because I brought my insurance CARD (orange plastic one that progressive gives you)  instead of the letter they send you (which has your name on it).  I'll probably reschedule it for another weekend soon.

$250? That's cheap compared to around here. The nearest training class is just under $400 and is over 45 minutes away. Hehe. I did not take the MSF, so I guess I am a "bad person" too. A friend of the family who has been riding since before I was even born took me out and rode a while, practiced the maueavers over and over and over and over. I also kinda learn as I go, and still am. I've got a little under 8,000 miles under my belt now.

I have not eliminated taking it, even now. It would be good to reinforce important techniques, possibly meet new people to ride with, insurance discount, etc.

A friend I ride with took the MSF course, she said it was a huge waste of money and time.  :dunno: I still may take it though.

But if you can't right now, then you are an adult, and you can make the choice. You are not alone!  

If you think the BRC is a waste of your time and money, then go ahead and take the ERC.  I can't imagine how experienced you are if you're just now taking the road test.  In any case, the instructors will help you if they catch any bad habits, and that's the key, to have your riding observed and corrected by professionally trained rider coaches.  I'd been riding for months, and my rider coach pointed out that I hang my foot under the shift lever, and asked me what would happen if I have to make a hard left turn.  Duh to me, but without that, I would have ridden like that for 20 years or until I broke my foot.  And I got dozens of other tips and corrections from my coaches that weekend.  Yes, I'm admitting that I didn't know everything going into the MSF.  They had something to teach me, even though I had already taught myself, and learned from a very experienced buddy, and already passed my road test.

I've talked to big tatooed Harley dudes who have taken the BEGINNER course (to get the insurance discount) after riding for 20 years, and said it has helped them become better riders.

If the MSF bias here is cramping your style, then go sign up for a track day that's run by a well-respected organization.  They also have coaches that will observe your technique and improve your riding.

Do everything you can to make yourself a better rider.  Don't avoid an opportunity to learn.

Quote from: scratchIt was the best thing I ever did after I had already been riding for 14 years!

I think this is one of the very best MSF endorsements here!  

Quote from: ChuckIf you think the BRC is a waste of your time and money, then go ahead and take the ERC.----- snip

The jury is still out on whether I will take MSF.  My last posting was a response to this comment you made:

Quote from: Chuck... but you seem to be looking for reasons to refute the advice to go ahead and take the course. You have your pride, and you think you know enough. If you're convinced of that, no amount of discussion in this forum will change that.

I find it curious that voicing second thoughts about MSF automatically made me a 'proud' rider that 'thinks he knows enough'.

Quote from: TarzanBoyI find it curious that voicing second thoughts about MSF automatically made me a 'proud' rider that 'thinks he knows enough'.

I think that was an observation more than an intended insult.

It was the thought that entered my mind while I've been reading your posts, too (the "knows enough" part).  :dunno:

My roadtest was give by an MSF instructor. He said the road test is much harder than anything the MSF spits at you. It's also good to point out more than 70% of the people at the road test failed. Honestly, if you're comfortable you'll do fine. I got a perfect score and it wasn't any sweat. You find alot of people just not comfortable going around cones that are so close together, and alot of people not comfortable with swerving.