alright.  further research helps.  PETAkillsanimals.com is apparently run by the Center for Consumer Freedom, a food industry lobby.  so take enerything they say with a grain of deep-fried in partially hydrogenated oils salt.

they're under investigation by the IRS http://www.citizensforethics.org/press/newsrelease.php?view=5 because their taking of funds from the food industry may violate their Tax Exempt status.

here's another article on The Center http://www.consumerdeception.com/

i became suspicious reading their page about PETA's response.  they said that while PETA claims they REFER healthy animals to other shelters, records show they've only TRANSFERRED one animal in the last year.  sort of a bait-and-switch argument.

Quote from: callmelennyYou sir, are an idiot!

Jane, you ignorant my mama.

Is one of my favorites...but you've got to be careful where you use it these days.

You also get fun quotes like:

QuoteNot counting the dogs and cats PETA spayed and neutered, the group put to death over 85 percent of the animals it took in during 2003 alone

Which means, 85% of the animals that where NOT fixed were killed. And they also appear to be looking at a shelter that doesn't take in animals from people, but from other shelters. I'd be willing to bet those shelteres counted animals PETA took as "adopted". [/i]

Quote from: PhaedrusI'd pay $3 for a cheeseburger instead of $1.

And that is exactly the problem: most people won't.  This isn't restricted to animal treatment, either...overseas sweatshops are the result of exactly the same economics.  People (and by this I mean "The People", the unwashed masses) say they want quality, decency, and apple pie, but when it gets right down to it they want the cheapest product.  In many areas, you can certainly find meats and poultry that have been raised in humane ways (most likely sourced from the same types of farms Onlypastrana refers to), and these usually come at something of a premium price, but the masses still prefer their McMeat and McNuggets.

Quote from: PhaedrusDon't many factory farms also put an excessively heavy and short  chain around the neck of a calf so they cannot move so their meat is more tender?

Kobe beef is created by overfeeding the cattle, not letting them move around, and massaging them every day.  Cruel?  Sounds like a setup most couch potatoes aspire to.  I'm not trying to be glib, but the "cruelty" of the treatment is really a perspective thing.  (note:  I generally avoid eating, cooking, or purchasing veal...with the exception of the occasional stock).  A lot of folks gripe about dropping live lobster into a boiling pot, but it is very doubtful that they mind all that much. (besides, lobster are cannibalistic...if they can eat lobster, why can't we?)  

I admit, I'm a bit hypocritical about the 'ethics' of food...I don't eat fast food because I don't care for the way they engineer their livestock or the quality of the product; I generally don't eat veal because of the reasons you state; (I also don't shop at Wal-Mart because I don't care for the way they treat their employees and suppliers, but that's another subject); but I can't resist the occasional bit of foie gras...the poster child for inhumane food production (unforutnately, there isn't an alternate way of producing it.)

One note on the lobster side of things...at my new job at a local seafood shop, we cut up live lobster.  Take a big-ass serrated knife, cut 'em right down between their eyes, and start pulling their brains out.

It always comes down to how cute the animal is.  Dogs/cats are easy to pawn off on people, lobsters, not so much.

Oh yeah, davipu=asshat.

QuoteAny "no-kill" shelter works by limiting the number of animals to a handful, which live with "foster parents".

granted ive been out of that shelter business for 3 years now

must be nice to hand pick who you can save.   many of these no kill shelters also get drop off animals some of which they KNOW cant be saved, be it injury,sickness, or age.  these dogs/cats get shipped over to other shelters for the dirty work.  some folks will work with the no kills to basicly give and care for the animals untill they die. basicly sit death watch.

ive got my own pets, 3 cats, fish, ive had numerous dogs,birds,etc etc
ive seen em die, ive raised food animals,(rabbit) and being a CET ive Euthanized many many more then i can count for reasons like old age, failing health,injury,and overpopulation/owner carelessness.

tell me why is it we dont have this issue as bad with cows,pigs and chickens? (they have other issues but im refering to over population and unwanted animals?)  its because we eat them and otherwise use thier bodies for products.   i suppose eating dog and cat meat would be abit apaling to some.  but then, im sure the folks in the restraunts arnt staring as a cow getting butcherd up when they order, or have the family pig waggin its tail at the door when they come home from work.

while its true humans have treated all kinds of animals poorly, without real excuse or cause including feed animals.  many have learned other ways to do so with better respect FOR the animalss.  even though i eat meat and animal products and will NEVER give it up, i would support peta more if they were ONLY pushing for better treatment, and not to stop animal product consumption all together.  now like most organizations its got its fenatics and crazies, and most seem to be spokesperson's.

i agree, animals should be treated right.  its not wrong to eat an animal. its not wrong to work an animal, but basic respect should be used and Enforced.  There is middle ground, too bad neither side will listen to the middle.

sorry double post browser hicup

Tarzanboy, about the support Davipu got.
At work, we used to have a formula sheet for Bull sh*! resume's we used to get.  Kinda funny, but mostly true.

Knowledgable  = knows enough to be dangerous
Willing to help others  = opinionated
Confident   = always thinks they are right and everyone else is wrong
Team leader  = thinks everyone should listen to him/her.
Stands by their word = thick headed.

No offense Davipu, i just read the formula sheet yesterday and found it amusing.

Dave gave me a part free of charge once.

Quote from: Blueknyti would support peta more if they were ONLY pushing for better treatment, and not to stop animal product consumption all together.

I find it ironic that if somehow the "anti-carnivore" crowd were successful in stopping the consumption of animal products, it would almost certainly result in the extinction of manylivestock species.  I don't think you'd ever see vast herds of wild dairy cows or flocks of chickens scurrying south for the winter.  These animals don't really have a place in the wild...they have been bred to be livestock.

Quote from: Badgerthey have been bred to be livestock.

*DING*

Most of the animals we eat and wear wouldn't be around if we didn't eat and wear them.   :dunno:  Leather looks cool and is protective.  Fur is warm.  Meat tastes soooo good...

Quote from: Badger

Quote from: callmelennyYou sir, are an idiot!

Jane, you ignorant my mama.

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:   Thanks Badger, you made reading those 6 pages worthwile.

Quote from: jen_[ :lol:  :lol:  :lol:   Thanks Badger, you made reading those 6 pages worthwile.

No he didn't. Your just so desperate, that you just think he did. You really did just waste all that time.

Quote from: dionysus

Quote from: jen_[ :lol:  :lol:  :lol:   Thanks Badger, you made reading those 6 pages worthwile.

No he didn't. Your just so desperate, that you just think he did. You really did just waste all that time.

Yeah, well I know I did. :mrgreen:

Yeah, I'm so cheap I don't even buy $1 hamburgers. Maybe oncea month a $6 meal, but thats about it. :mrgreen: It's not that I don't like the food, I just don't like paying a ton of money for shitty burgers.

WHY does Wendy's come up as the first google hit for hamburgers?  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

If Davipu just stopped drinking this stuff he'd be fine..

http://www.arrogantbastard.com/index2.html

Completely off topic (or maybe this is on topic now?).  I was a vegetarian for about 12 years.  Then one night I was watching TV and subway had this awesome deal on 12 inch turkey subs.  Oh man, it looked good.  So I snuck out of the house (to avoid the wrath of my idol worshipping parents) and chowed down on a 12 inch turkey sub.  Man it was good.  For the next three weeks I made up for lost time.  I hit KFC, McDonalds, Burger King.. and oh yes.. Taco Bell.  I don't think I was "regular" for a whole month.. I had enough fiber to last for a damn life time.

while at that time they may not have any Place in the wild, they would make the attempt, they will break down fences and block roads to get to food and water.  or worse, knowing humans USE to tend to them would Follow humans around hoping to get food from them.  OR worse, have to kill them off for NO reason other then too many animals that have no place in the wild. Livestock is bred to numbers to feed the "Tribe/s" so they dont have to rely on munching roots through the winters when things dont grow that well. but perhaps thats it, its compititon between vegans 2 and 4 legged. if the 4 legged arnt around then there is more room to grow the weeds for the newly,unwillfully converted former carnivors.  Anti carnivores wont win completely of that im pretty sure. as stated i do belive the treatment of Food animals should be better but then while the ones holding the knife cant always be trusted for that, the ones holding the soybean cant be left souly to govern that either.

while many may argue there is NO reason to kill animals for food in this day an age, and we arnt living in the conditions like when we needed hunters and gatherers, we still have many going hungry each day.  lack of food? partly, lack of funds? yeah could be. i would imagine sprouts would increase in price if suddenly 1/2 the US alone decided no more meats, dairys, or eggs of any kind.  

na, stoping animal breeding and processing isnt the answer, folks giving up veal wont happen regretfully. Enforcement of better treatment is the only way.   but leave the meat eaters alone.

Quote from: Blueknytwhile many may argue there is NO reason to kill animals for food in this day an age, and we arnt living in the conditions like when we needed hunters and gatherers, we still have many going hungry each day.  lack of food? partly, lack of funds? yeah could be. i would imagine sprouts would increase in price if suddenly 1/2 the US alone decided no more meats, dairys, or eggs of any kind.

actually, you can feed more people off 100 acres of land planted with crops than 100 acres of land with cows grazing.

if everyone were vegetarian, ranching land could be used for growing crops, which would increase our food production, which could help the world hunger situation.

i do love a rare tenderloin filet, though.


cheers,
will

Is it just me or are a lot of people unable to read? Or, do they simply not understand that the large animal rights/welfare organizations really don't care about people eating meat? They just want the meat eaters to treat the animals that they live off of a bit of respect. The handful of organizations that want everyone to be vegitarian are usually full of nut jobs. Like the total morons that light feed truck of fire, where the logic in that?

For the argument that the animals would all die of. NO shaZam!. Guess what's gonna happen to them now? They'll be killed and eaten. The only difference is, if everyone were to miraculously stop eating meat, the current generation of cows would all die off. BUT THERE WOULD BE NO MORE BORN. No more born means fewer dead. Understand?

And yes, modern livestock have no place in the wild. Just like modern plants. Bannanas, for instance are about to die off, since they've been bred to suit a purpose and have a desease attacking them now. BFD. The species won't become extinct because they're kept all over the place for non-food reasons.

For starving, think about this. A cow weighs about 800# and provides around 400# of meat. A cow takes roughly 5 years for cattle to grow large enough to be slaughtered. Figuring a meager portion of 4oz per person per meal a cow can provide 1600 meals. Assuming a cow ate the same as an average human (4oz of beef 3 times a day). Thats 5475 meals. Even that ridiculous math, biased as far as I can go in favor of eating meat, opposes it. Of course, a cow is going to eat at leat 4 times that. Plus, it needs the room to live, to be slaughtered and butchered, etc, which could be farmed rather than used for animals.

Quote from: Blueknytbut perhaps thats it, its compititon between vegans 2 and 4 legged.

Are you suggesting we eat vegans?  Hmmmm...  :lol: