Nobody in Seattle smokes.  So she is probably a little more freaked out about second hand smoke than she really should be.  I doubt RG has ever even smelled second hand smoke.   :lol:

Now come to KC and walk into a bar.  You'll have to throw your clothes away.

I heard a comedian once say, "People say that smokes should pay for all our health care.  I say screw that, make them pay for my dry cleaning!"

Having said that, I have a had core addiction to chewing tobacco (which costs like $11 a can on the west coast, but like $4.32 here).  Oh, and I bum smokes off people when I am drunk, which is the worst kind of smoker.

When I am 40 I am going to start smoking, at 50 I start drinking, and at 60 I am going to start doing drugs ... none of that retirement crap for me ...  :lol:  ...
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: Jake DI doubt RG has ever even smelled second hand smoke.   :lol:

She has...  We've hung out before, and I smoke.  


After Dec 8th, non-smokers will have nothing to complain about...  If ANYONE flips me shaZam! about smoking, I'll say to them, "If you want fresh air, go to a bar."   :nana:

I dated a guy who smoked...

When you're riding behind someone who is tipping ashes and butts out of the window, you really have an appreciation for those who keep their habit in the car with them.

I lose the ash out the window...  But, I don't toss the butt...  Unless there's no one around.  

Quote from: RVertigoAfter Dec 8th, non-smokers will have nothing to complain about...  If ANYONE flips me shaZam! about smoking, I'll say to them, "If you want fresh air, go to a bar."   :nana:

For a while after the 'no smoking in bars' law went into effect, our local tavern put a jar on the bar.  If you had a cigarette, you put some cash in the jar...this was to pay for the fine they would eventually get socked with and as something of an anonymous petition (there was a lot of money in the jar).  That ended when they were threatened with the suspension of their liquor license.  

Even as a smoker, I'm torn on the subject of indoor smoking.  I don't smoke indoors at home and I can certainly understand that people don't want to deal with it while they're eating, but I fail to understand the justification for banning smoking at bars.  "You can't smoke near people who are busy destroying their liver," seems a bit nonsensical to me.  :dunno:

The justification is for the people who work there.  The peons who have no say in how the bar is run are the ones who get socked with the secondhand bigtime.

And not everyone who goes to bars is there to destroy their liver.  I go to hang out with friends and play pool.  I almost never drink, and when I do, it's in the some-health-benifits level (I nurse it all night).

I'm a drink as much as possible type guy.  There were girls making out with each other at the party I was at Saturday and I don't even remember watching (and me and another guy are the only ones that watched).  I think I drink too much if I can't remember stuff like that.

But I am sure I smoked probably a whole pack of Ultra Lights.

Quote from: RoadstergalWhen you're riding behind someone who is tipping ashes and butts out of the window, you really have an appreciation for those who keep their habit in the car with them.

:nod:  My perspective changed when I got the motorcycle.  I've been hit by flying embers.

Of course, what that means is that I check behind me for bikers before I toss the butt.    If it's a harley I let it fly (just kidding).  Old habits die hard.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16230313&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15538318&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14985652&query_hl=1

Ahem:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12612356&query_hl=1

If they had a smoking ban that would ban smoking from areas where people under 18 are allowed, I would support it with everything I have.  Back in the old days when lots of restaurants had smoking areas outside of the bar, there was always some 10 year old kid choking to death...  f%$king a-hole parents.  :x

But, in a bar... It's different.

First, you have to be 21 to be in a bar so kids can't be force to be there by their parents.
Second, drinking isn't exactly healthy.
Third, why do people want a bunch of drunk a-holes smoking out on the street?  Why not keep them cooped up in the bar?
Fourth, a lot of non-smokers smoke when they drink (that's how I used to smoke).[/list:u]  
It's stupid to have a smoking ban in bars.  If non-smoking bars are what people want, then they'd succeed...  But, for some

unknown reason, they always fail.  

Quote from: RoadstergalThe justification is for the people who work there.  The peons who have no say in how the bar is run are the ones who get socked with the secondhand bigtime.

Then they can work in a non-smoking bar.

It's like making a law that office buildings can no longer have ceilings because the workers aren't getting enough sun.  

Quote from: RVertigoFirst, you have to be 21 to be in a bar so kids can't be force to be there by their parents.

A lot of the justification is for the workers, as described above.  It's the peons who have no say in the matter who suffer (as an ex-peon myself).  And a bar is a social venue, not a place to just sit and drink - see my post above.

Quote from: RVertigoSecond, drinking isn't exactly healthy.

In moderation, it is.  In excess, it isn't.  Smoking cigarettes is unhealthy at any level.

Quote from: RVertigoThird, why do people want a bunch of drunk a-holes smoking out on the street?  Why not keep them cooped up in the bar?

You get drunk a-holes out on the street no matter what.

Quote from: RVertigoFourth, a lot of non-smokers smoke when they drink (that's how I used to smoke).

I don't quite get the point... and a non-smoker who smokes?  That sounds like a 'vegetarian' who eats chicken.

Quote from: RVertigoBut, for some unknown reason, they always fail.  

See the links above - no economic impact from changing to non-smoking.  Compare the failure for startup non-smoking bars to the failure for startup for smoking bars, and I'd be surprised if you see a difference.  Hospitality industry is high-failure.

Quote from: RVertigoThen they can work in a non-smoking bar.

Not if the smoking bar is the only place that is hiring.  Could you switch jobs tomorrow if it became policy to lace employee lunches at random with strychnine?  I couldn't.  I have too much invested here.  And I have more employment options than a lot of high-school-only educated folk with families.

I'm a non-smoker that smokes (only when I drink).  But I'm also a non-chewer that chews (only when I drive or play PS2).

I really, REALLY like that there is no more smoking in bars/restaurants/etc in New York State. When it was first implemented, there was some tension - but it quickly ceased. A few back-country woodchuck bars allow smoking; you put your money in a jar when you want to smoke and if the establishment gets fined, they use the money in the jar to cover the cost (about $1000 I've heard). :lol:

But it really makes life more enjoyable, I think. Non-smokers should be able to eat, drink, and go out without being subjected to second hand smoke. Smoking is fine, and who wishes to do it can go rigth ahead - but your rights stop where someone else's begins.

It is funny; the bars do not allow you to take your drinks outside. But you have to smoke outside. So you really can't have a beer and a cigaratte at the same time... :lol:

Quote from: PhaedrusSmoking is fine, and who wishes to do it can go rigth ahead - but your rights stop where someone else's begins.

Ja - I have no problem with people chewing tobacco, or doing any number of drugs that are snorted, injected, eaten, etc.  But smoking uniquely involves everyone in the vicinity.

Quote from: RoadstergalA lot of the justification is for the workers, as described above.  It's the peons who have no say in the matter who suffer (as an ex-peon myself).

People that CHOOSE to work in a smoking bar chose to work there...  You don't like smoke, work somewhere else.  Pretty simple.  And don't pull the "can't find something else" BS...  Bartenders can work anywhere that sells booze.

Quote from: RoadstergalAnd a bar is a social venue, not a place to just sit and drink - see my post above.

The number of people that go to a bar for hours (without a competition or show) and have one drink and don't smoke are about 0.001% of the population that actually goes to bars.  I don't see why bars would stay in business if the majority did that...  So, making bar rules for those people makes no sense.  Most people go to bars and drink at least 3 drinks.  Where's the health cut off?  When does drinking start being bad for you?  This ban has nothing to do with health.  

Quote from: RoadstergalIn moderation, it is.  In excess, it isn't.  Smoking cigarettes is unhealthy at any level.

Deisel fumes are about 1000x worse for you that cigarette smoke.  Try this experiment.  Fill a room with 100 smokers all smoking at the same time...  Wait and see how many die.  Next, put one running Diesel truck in a room with 100 people... Wait and see how many die.  Yeah... That's what I thought.

Quote from: RoadstergalYou get drunk a-holes out on the street no matter what.

But, with the ban, they're forced to be out on the street...  With current laws, when someone it out on the street they can be told to go back in the bar or to go away.  After Dec 8th, you can't tell them to go back in the bar...  It seems silly to me that non-smokers would rather have smokers forced to be out on the street than locked away inside a bar...  I just don't get it.

Quote from: RoadstergalI don't quite get the point... and a non-smoker who smokes?  That sounds like a 'vegetarian' who eats chicken.

I'll explain it to you.  Smoke-nazis call them "social smokers" or "casual smokers."  They are people that don't regularly smoke...  In fact, smoke very very rarely.  But, from time to time they feel like having a smoke when they drink.

Quote from: RoadstergalCompare the failure for startup non-smoking bars to the failure for startup for smoking bars, and I'd be surprised if you see a difference.  Hospitality industry is high-failure.

Actually...  In CA, the few bars that didn't have employees (which is what the CA ban was about, unlike the WA ban) could still have smoking...  They saw a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE increase in profits with the smoking ban.

The smoking ban isn't about health... If it was, we'd ban lots of other things that are unhealthy too...  Burning Tar, Diesel fumes, etc. etc. etc.  Cars kill more people than smoking...  The Smoking Ban is about smell, nothing else...  If you live in a city, you're breathing much worse things than cigarette smoke.

But, hey... Whatever...  I'll happily blow smoke in the face of every passer-by on the street.  When they complain about it, I'll tell them to go in the bar if they want fresh air.  

Quote from: RoadstergalNot if the smoking bar is the only place that is hiring.  Could you switch jobs tomorrow if it became policy to lace employee lunches at random with strychnine?  I couldn't.  I have too much invested here.  And I have more employment options than a lot of high-school-only educated folk with families.

There's a HUGE difference...

First...  If I got the job here knowing BEFORE I APPLIED that they "lace employee lunches at random with strychnine" then I'd be pretty f%$king stupid to apply, wouldn't I?

If you're allergic to peanuts, do you apply at the peanut factory?  

And...  How many places serve alcohol and don't allow smoking?  I'd say as many have smoking as places that don't.  Bartenders can work ANYWHERE that serves booze...  Not just smoking places.  It's not a valid comparison and you know it.

Working in a smoking environment is a choice made by the worker.

Quote from: RVertigoActually...  In CA, the few bars that didn't have employees (which is what the CA ban was about, unlike the WA ban) could still have smoking...  They saw a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE increase in profits with the smoking ban.

Bars without employees?  WTF?