Do you "pull" when countersteering? Read.

tmckay · June 26, 2003, 08:37:45 AM

I''ve noticed something and I was just curious how many people do the same.

When countersteering, I often pull with the "wrong" hand, sometimes while pushing with the "right" hand, sometimes instead of pushing at all. So, initiating a left turn I often pull on the bars with my right hand as well as or instead of pushing with my left.

Didn't learn this on purpose, just noticed I was doing it. Doesn't make any difference to the bike physics, but I think it does cause me to distribute my weight differently (toward the right in a left turn, keeping my torso a little more vertical.) This may be why I started doing it in the first place, subconciously.

Thoughts?

Trev

JamesG · June 26, 2003, 09:24:06 AM

I push/pull mostly with the left hand as my right is usually busy with the brake & throttle.

pantablo · June 26, 2003, 09:46:26 AM

I happen to push and pull also. Especially when I need to get the bike flipped onto it's other side (quick left/rights in canyons for example) I'll yank on the bar to get bike vertical again...

AR5ENAL · June 26, 2003, 10:48:29 AM

I've noticed myself doing this too. However, I'm too much of a new rider for it to be a habit, I think...

scratch · June 26, 2003, 12:30:41 PM

When I learned about counter-steering 15 years ago, I purposely rode open-handed and only pushed through turns. It seemed quicker, I felt quicker and smoother, and my freinds told me I rode smoother, too. Nowadays, I ride open-handed (with my thumb still under, just not gripping; or covering the horn or highbeam) to keep myself from getting white-knuckled, tense and angry at all the cage drivers. And especially when going downhill to keep the weight off the bars, so I can tuurrn!

The Antibody · June 26, 2003, 03:44:45 PM

Very good Scratch, thats the way to do it. never pull. push with one hand and let the other come back.

Although this isn't counter steering. Countersteering is at ultra low speeds. While moving at any higher rate (say 25 or higher) it's no more than a lean.... well, unless your talking about swerving, then it's right back to pushing on the opposite side. and pushing right back on the other side to straiten yourself out.

-Anti

scratch · June 26, 2003, 03:56:58 PM

You can counter steer at any speed, with the exception of setting landspeed records, just try it. I think at over 270 mph steering reverses. I'm guessing though. I think anything over 150 mph doesn't need to be discussed on this board.

The Antibody · June 26, 2003, 04:10:30 PM

Well, yeah. It's not needed though. ACTUALLY!...... if your laying on your tank, then yes. you'll have to countersteer. but never pull.

-Anti

June 26, 2003, 04:12:35 PM

I only push...

I dont get the same feel from pulling on the bars, and I agree with Scratch that it just feels more smooth and a more fluid motion into turns.

glenn9171 · June 26, 2003, 04:13:43 PM

A motorcycle will change direction to whichever side it is leaning. This is why you go right when you push down on the right grip. Pulling back on the opposite side just makes it turn more with less effort on your part.

wingbolt · June 26, 2003, 05:31:50 PM

All this time I thought countersteering was a way to lean the bike by taking advantage of a phenomenon called gyroscopic precession (apply a force to a spinning object and that force will manifest itself 90 degrees away in the direction of the rotation).

Look at your front wheel from the side of your bike and imagine the wheel has 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions. When the wheel is turning and you make a right turn by pushing the handlebars right, it is as if you just pushed on the 3 o'clock wheel position (looking at wheel from the left). Since the wheel turns anti-clockwise rolling forward when viewed from the left side, the force that was applied at the 3 o'clock position is actually forcing itself at the 12 o'clock position. That causes the wheel to tilt/lean to the right.

Since a gyoscope becomes "rigid in space" as you spin it, you've probably noticed the faster you spin that wheel, the harder you have to push to make you bike lean using the countersteer method. This rigidity in space is what keeps the bike from just falling over when you start rolling down the street.

I have a great little $5 gyroscope I occasionally play with, it demonstrates the rigidity in space concept and precession very nicely. It gets spool up to speed with a string that you wrap tightly along its axis, and then pull quickly.

Gisser · June 26, 2003, 06:19:07 PM

Nah. Gyroscopic precession doesn't explain why countersteering works at walking speeds when the front wheel has very little gyroscopic effect. A more complete explanation would include center of gravity and centrifugal force. Trying to steer into a turn on a bike (which has a high center of gravity) will cause you to ride the wheels out from under the bike as the top of the bike begins to fall outward. You'd go *splat* on the ground if you didn't subconsciously correct the steering in the opposite direction.

glenn9171 · June 26, 2003, 06:27:40 PM

Countersteering is just what it says it is. Steering (turning the handlebars) counter (or opposite to) the direction of the turn. It works on bicycles at speed too, and no one even thinks about it. You lean into the turn and push the bars they direction you want to go. But try explaining that to your 6 year old when the training wheels off.

Phil · June 26, 2003, 08:06:25 PM

Semantics to the side, the bike turns because it is leaning, and it leans most predictably with steering input. For new riders especially, I think the important fact to note is that you don't want to fight the steering input of one hand with the other.

I.e., if you want to turn right/lean right, you push on the right grip, but if you are tense you may unconsciously also be pushing on the left grip, cancelling out the steering input and wondering why you are running wide.

So if you want to push on one grip while you relax the other (or actually pull on the other, (although the extra effort should be superfluous)) the bike will turn predictably.

If you think you can steer best by leaning your body only, try some fast u-turns and figure-eights with your hands off the grips.

(From Proficient Motorcycling, More Proficient Motorcycling, Twist of the Wrist II, and Motorcycling Excellence.)

Arpee · June 26, 2003, 10:36:13 PM

I actually try and make this as natural as possible with very little effort from my upper body involved (it's easy on the GS....so friggin' light). But I lead with my head and inside knee and shoulder which causes my weight to shift and the rest just happens...to straighten, I just tuck my knee and shoulder back in and straighten my head...the body and bike follow...very little bar input.

wingbolt · June 26, 2003, 10:42:41 PM

QuoteNah. Gyroscopic precession doesn't explain why countersteering works at walking speeds when the front wheel has very little gyroscopic effect.

Maybe you could explain low speed countersteering then.

I guess I've never really noticed myself countersteering at low speeds. Maybe I do it but don't know, I'll have to see. Can someone explain countersteering at low speeds to me? It seems to me that at low speeds I point the wheel in the direction I want to go by pulling the same grip as the direction of the turn.

All I know is that in a tight curve at high speed, hanging off my bike helps lean the bike (center of gravity shift), but pushing on the side I want to turn toward (gyro precession) really helps with leaning even more. Like Pablo said, pushing the opposite grip really helps bring the bike upright out of the turn quickly also. I can push the opposite grip to straighten the bike quicker than I can shift my body from one side to the other.

glenn9171 · June 27, 2003, 07:21:51 PM

At low speeds you are still countersteering (pushing on the grip on the side towards the direction of the turn). We did this in our MSF course. Idling along in 1st gear and going through cones. Push right-go right. You do not turn the bars in the direction of the turn like you would on an ATV or in your car. Unless you are pushing the bike along with your feet.

Try it if you don't think this sounds right. Get up to about 5-10 MPH in 1st gear. Push down on the right grip. You will turn to the right. You are not "turning" the bars like a steering wheel. You are getting the bike to lean in the direction you want to go. The direction change just happens naturally.

john · June 27, 2003, 07:28:10 PM

This is interesting. When I rode the GSX-R I deffinitely pushed on the bars to dip it into the turn. With the z1000 I find myself being lazy and pulling on the ber which is a bad habit.

I try to make a concious effort to push on the bar and the footpeg and lean my body into the turn.

wingbolt · June 28, 2003, 02:25:29 PM

glenn9171 wrote

QuoteAt low speeds you are still countersteering

and

QuoteGet up to about 5-10 MPH in 1st gear. Push down on the right grip. You will turn to the right.

If you're pushing down on the grip, that's not countersteering, that's just pushing DOWN to help lean the bike. This will also work at high wheel speed, but it's much easier to lean the bike at high rotational wheel speed by using physics (gyroscopic precession), by pushing FORWARD on the grip on the side you want to turn--that's countersteering.

glenn9171 · June 28, 2003, 05:50:34 PM

Unless you arms are perpindicular to the ground and not at a forward angle as they are on motorcycles, then pushing down does move the bar forward to a degree. Sit on the seat with your hands on the grips. Extend your arm, straightening the elbow. The bar does turn. The bike does not just lean over to that side. This is indeed countersteering. Agreed, there is not a lot of "steering" involved compared to the leaning, but it is there. It does not take much of the "steering" part of the equation to make a motorcycle turn.

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Do you &quot;pull&quot; when countersteering? Read.

Do you "pull" when countersteering? Read.