Quote from: pantablo on March 16, 2006, 11:39:49 PM
glad you're alright.

this doesnt apply to you since there was sand and other stuff but god if I ever hear someone on this board actually use that as a reason for lowsiding I'm gonna smack them.

it should read:
poor throttle control=lowside.

So when you say poor throttle control=lowside, are you implying that it's an entry-speed issue?  or rather that not enough throttle is being applied through the turn? 

And if you can't blame cold tires for a low-side, what would you blame cold tires for?  i.e. what's the most likely incident that ignoring cold tires would cause?

Not trying to be a knob, just genuinely interested in the mechanics of traction and skilled operation of the bike.

Sorry to hear about your bike but glad you're ok.

Glad both GS's and their riders came out ok.....be careful out there, folks... 

Quote from: daneilah on March 17, 2006, 08:06:03 AM
So when you say poor throttle control=lowside, are you implying that it's an entry-speed issue?  or rather that not enough throttle is being applied through the turn?

Considering that I was pushing my front end all over the place this morning, sliding, and it had rained all last night and was lighly raining this morning; I'd say that it was entry speed.  When entering a turn too hot, on the gas, even properly, the front end will be light.  Even when I shifted my weight forward and to the inside, weighting the outside peg, my front slid.  What was I doing wrong?  I know exactly what I was doing wrong; I was going too fast for cold, wet conditions.

Edit: Mar17: Just to note: I slipped in my parking lot today, @ probably less than 10mph.  No crash, just the front stepped out.

I like it 

let's blame the device (bike, tires, road, etc) instead of ourselves 
it's like... the perfect excuse!!! (glad you are ok and bike is functional).


This reminds me an advice I got from a rider (not sportsbike) with 20+ years of experience. He told me that whenever I hit a patch of sand or whatever, I shouldn't panic and instead open the throttle just a bit more. After all, the patch of sand/dirt will not last forever, and what usually happens is that the tires will regain grip, so the extra throttle helps to bring the bike up from leaning too far because of the patch of dirt on the road.

I am still waiting to try it, but so far I've only encountered very small patches of sand on my way.

Quote from: pantablo on March 17, 2006, 12:18:36 AM
yeah, budget speed demon had other things to contend with and that wasnt directed at him...


but there are SO MANY guys that lowside (you know the ones-600cc sportbike as a first bike) that blame the cold tires....man we ALL ride on cold tires, every time we leave the garage...poor throttle control is what causes the low slide, not the cold tires....idiots. [/rant]

This is comming from someone who lives in california? I don't imagine they dump tons of salt and sand on your roads in LA during your frigid winters do they?

Hello, the original poster lives in canada. It gets really cold here, and you can't even begin to fathom the amount of debris on the road after a canadian winter living in california unless you've ridden motorcycles up here.

according to the weather network the warmest temp. yesterday where he lives was 3C/33F, that's too cold to ride and would certainly affect traction combined with all of the crap on the roads. You can 'control the throttle' as much as you want, but if there's junk all over the roads and its nearly freezing outside (literally) you're probably going to have some traction issues.

And this is where judgement comes in...



Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pablo I know you have all the cool Pics up in your sig, but seriously. If he falls because he f*$% up its gonna hurt just as much as if you or I fall because in 1 second we f*$%ed up and fell. Riding these bikes is flirting with the devil, and we all like it.






Just do your very best, always.

Quote from: scratch on March 17, 2006, 12:15:15 PMI was going too fast for cold, wet conditions.

Again with the saying what I was gonna say...


When people blame the cold tires, the cold tires excuse is  just an excuse, but it's also has some cause towards the real reason...  The tires and road were cold (and/or wet/frosty), therefore you have less stick...  But, the real problem is not compensating for the less stick and slowing down.

I ride in the rain, in the cold, over metal braces in the wet curved on/off-ramps (talk about a shock to your system), and twice even on frosty roads.  Both of my tires slide/push if I don't ride with caution.  I have yet to low-side, but I also have yet to push it on a cold/wet/frosty/metal road.

Quote from: RVertigo on March 17, 2006, 05:04:48 PM

Quote from: scratch on March 17, 2006, 12:15:15 PMI was going too fast for cold, wet conditions.

Again with the saying what I was gonna say...


When people blame the cold tires, the cold tires excuse is  just an excuse, but it's also has some cause towards the real reason...  The tires and road were cold (and/or wet/frosty), therefore you have less stick...  But, the real problem is not compensating for the less stick and slowing down.

I ride in the rain, in the cold, over metal braces in the wet curved on/off-ramps (talk about a shock to your system), and twice even on frosty roads.  Both of my tires slide/push if I don't ride with caution.  I have yet to low-side, but I also have yet to push it on a cold/wet/frosty/metal road.

Thank you!!!!

Quote from: RVertigo on March 17, 2006, 05:04:48 PM
When people blame the cold tires, the cold tires excuse is  just an excuse,

Dammit..I broke a nail today, and there ain't no way I'm gonna believe it wasn't because of my cold tires!!!!!!!!!!! 

Yeah and there was water leaking in my basement today..... I'm sure it was beacuse of cold tires!!!!!!!

Well...  It is a valid reason for changing your control and riding slower...  So, if you don't know to slow down, then it was the cold tires, wet road, or whatever...

And... Cold tires HAVE been known to break nails and cause water leaks...  In fact...  I once broke a knife tip AND a shoe on a cold tire...  True story.

 

Do tell, RVertigo! 

I just arrived from my longest ride ever... on cold tires 

1st time I do 52 miles in one shot  (dang it, my shoulders hurt). I only stopped to get a drink for 2 minutes and ended up feeding this illegal mexican who was hungry and had no cash (yeah I know... but I'm mexican too {legal}, so couldn't help it).

Quote from: subc on March 17, 2006, 05:43:43 PM
I just arrived from my longest ride ever... on cold tires 

1st time I do 52 miles in one shot  (dang it, my shoulders hurt). I only stopped to get a drink for 2 minutes and ended up feeding this illegal mexican who was hungry and had no cash (yeah I know... but I'm mexican too {legal}, so couldn't help it).

Cold tires stole his cash??

Quote from: pandy on March 17, 2006, 05:37:55 PM


Do tell, RVertigo!  

Uh... Well....

Ok...  So, we had an afterwork bar event, right...  (The start of any bad story)...  On the way up to the event, I saw a bicycle wheel (with no bike attached) chained to a meter with a little sign on it that said, "What Now? Visit www.BLAHBLAHBLAH.com" ...  I thought it was an odd thing, but kept on walking to the bar...  Then I saw another one...  And another one....  And another one...  In all, I passed about 15 bicycle wheels on the way to the bar...   ...  Which was only about 5 blocks away.

I got to the bar and there was another damn tire chained up out front.  I thought, "Geeeze guys!  Spread the advertising out a little!"


So......  The night progressed...  And my drinking progressed...  I went out for a smoke with a few other drunks and saw that damn wheel again.  I started talking about how stupid it was and that they were littering up the city with this advertising!  One thing let to another and I decided to stomp it and bend the rim...  In my drunken stomping, I didn't think about the axle and stomped right on it, poking a huge whole in my shoe...

Then I got really mad (at the wheel  ) and decided that I wanted to cut the tire off...  So, I started sawing at it with my serrated knife, when someone said, "Just pry it off."  And of course I had to try...  POP!  No more tip on my knife...  DAMN!  So, I stopped messing with the knife and took this picture:






One more similar "event" made me decide to stop drinking as much and to totally avoid hard alcohol...

And: NO! THAT BIKE IN THE BACK WAS NOT HURT OR TOUCHED AT ALL!

Quote from: mike_mike on March 17, 2006, 03:02:58 PM
This is comming from someone who lives in california? I don't imagine they dump tons of salt and sand on your roads in LA during your frigid winters do they?
...blah, blah, blah...you're probably going to have some traction issues.

Listen Mike, you are making a big assumption about where I ride. Yes I live in SUNNY california. One of the wonderful things about SUNNY california, besides the miles of beaches (sunny and warm year round, bikini's all around, perfect waves) is the ability to surf in the morning, and snowboard in the evening...you get where I'm going with this?

When I ride, my usual route takes me over a mountain pass up to the local SKI AREA, Wrightwood. MY route, this time of year consists of piles of sand on the road to abate the snow and BLACK ICE that forms on those roads, in temps of around 30F. Why do you think I, a SUNNY southern california motorcyclist, would have a heated vest hookup and heated grips on my bike?

You dont have to have below freezing temps to have cold tires. The colder it is, the more gingerly you need to be with the throttle. Inexperienced riders on "my first bike is a" sportbikes dont have that control, and these are the guys I always hear "cold tires" from after a lowside. Dont think I'm hiding behind my computer either. I call them out in person just as vigorously. If a person lowsides because of cold tires, whether they live in CAN or they live in sunny california its because they didnt use their good judgement to be easy on the throttle or they didnt have the skill to be easy on the throttle.

So take your condescending attitude and shove it into the nearest snow bank. I'm going surfing.

We're not worthy, we're not worthy!

For those of you who think I was going to fast, I was going about 10 km/hr. So speed was not my problem.
Neither was throttle control.

But Pablo is right. My problem was judgment related.

First off, I should not be riding my bike on these tires. When I say worn out, I mean just about bald. And not only are they bald, but they were very cheap tires to begin with (they came with the bike). I made a judgment call to ride the bike before changing the tires and I paid for it.

Cold tires were not my reason for what happened, but I think they are one part of the equation. This also happened at night so it was defiantly below the freezing mark. When you get tires that are that cold, plus ground that is that cold, it severely reduces the traction of any tire. Anyone who doesn't agree with this obviously hasn't been exposed to these types of temperatures.

My next problem is that I was eager to get on the bike and take some quick corners... a little too eager.
Instead of gently leaning into the turn, I kind of "threw" it into the lean with a little bit of counter steering. Rather than falling into the lean and rolling through the corner like I've done so many times before, the bike just kinda kept leaning over until it smacked the ground.

On top of all of this, there was some kind of lose dirt, or sand in this corner. I think this spot is where the water collected from the whole street before draining into the sewer and leaving all the crap behind. This didn't help my crapy cold tire, and bad judgment situation, in fact I would say it made it worse.

So over all, the road conditions and cold tires are not my explanation to why this happened. The real defining factor of this crash is that I ignored all of the conditions around me and tried to get the bike into some extreme lean. Simply put, Rider Error.