I have to agree with AJ on this one.

STUPID is as STUPID does.    If I take my life and throw it away so stupidly, Please thrash my good name cause I really suck.

There are varying levels of stupidness for sure – but under who’s discretion is it to make that call – you, me?  What gives us the right and would we all be cool with someone else judging us?  Right.

If that were my daughter, wife, sister, mom or whatever, would I think they made a stupid decision and could they have used more common sense – absolutely.  Would I think they deserved that much physical harm as a result – not so much.

By your own rule sets - good luck on your own judgment days…

Isnt Darwinisn cool?  Point being she is in the hospital and I am sitting here at work. I obviously have enough sense in me to not do something like that. Do people judge everyone all the time- yes!!!  This isnt heaven or some utopia.  This is the real world with real world decisions and real world consequences.  Some people survive some dont.

oh gosh...I never meant to imply she deserved what happened to her. by any means.
BAD KARMA and all.  Just sad to think some people would even attempt such a thing.  she had all kinds of warning signs.

no helmet. unfamiliar bike. no helmet.  lotsa speed and no helmet.  especially on an unfamiliar bike.
Man I feel uncomfortable at regular speeds on someone elses bike.

It's hard not to be judgemental on this one.  even sympathetic.  SHe had to have known better.

but I believe no one deserves the injuries.  ever.    

It's like this...

If you point a BB gun at your hand and end up at the hospital to get the BB removed, you're stupid (I know someone that did this).
If you intentionally light yourself on fire, you're stupid (check ebaum for videos of people doing this).
If you jump in an alligator pit wearing dead chickens, you're stupid.
If you walk across the freeway and get hit by a car, you're stupid.
If you eat clearly rotten food and you get sick, you're stupid.
If you jump on a motorcycle without knowing how to ride and proceed to ride 100 MPH without any protective gear, you're stupid.

Do you see a trend forming here?

I once ate leftover chinese food that went bad overnight (last summer). it tasted good, but it sent me to the hospital for 2 days (food poisoning). it was fun vomiting for 9 hours straight 

to be honest, I don't feel sorry for the girl... but I don't feel happy, or angry for he desicion. in fact, what I feel is NOTHING.
she made a choice, now she's living with the consequences, and nothing I say or feel will change what happened to her.

Quote from: subc on April 05, 2006, 04:42:49 PMI once ate leftover chinese food that went bad overnight (last summer). it tasted good, but it sent me to the hospital for 2 days (food poisoning). it was fun vomiting for 9 hours straight 

I've had food poisoning like that twice...

The last time was recently...  I actually started getting sick while playing a show in Bremerton...  About an hour and a half drive.

I literally walk off stage and ran to the bathroom...  I puked behind the place 3 times... Luckily my friend was there to drive back to Seattle, 'cause I puked three more times on the way home...  Puked about 5 more times at home, then it started coming out the other end... Then both at once... 

I was down for three days...  WORST!

The time before was about the same, but I got sick on my way home...  I parked at home, opened the door, and LOST it...  I was so sick that I actually lost a day...  I don't remember it at all...  Probably better that way.


But, what I meant was...  Your chicken is green and you eat it anyway.

This thread started to touch on legislation issues early on and then started more towards the human interest side of things. I am, however, interested to see where most stand on the idea of legislating personal decisions? Now certain things like actually requiring insurance/licence to purchase a car/cycle just makes sense. I wonder if I could (if i ever had enough cash) go out and purchase a Leer Jet without any know how etc... but I digress.

When we start to get into personal decisions such as: should I wear a helmet today? or do I feel like being safe and taking the MSF course? I have a very strong opinion that the answer to these and other questions should be left entirely in the hands of those responsible for the consequences of their actions. I hate to see our governement taking away any rights as stupid as they may be. Part of freedom to me is being able to make the bad decision if I want. To be stubborn and believe that I am capable of learning on my own without some stupid class that could cost me some dough or to drive my auto without a seatbelt just because I like living on the edge.

Instead what we've ended up with (here in CA at least) is a gov't that says like a mother "sorry son, but we know best." And bam, my choice is gone, someone's already decided for me.

Now, I know I'm ranting, but this kind of stuff makes me mad  .  Also understand this comes from someone who wouldn't put a leg over a cycle until I had my MSF course completed - wouldn't purchase a cycle until I had my license and insurance in hand - and never goes out under any conditions without boots, armored jacket, full face helmet, and mc gloves (I do wear pants, but i figure denim isn't a safety point).

Safety laws are all over the place...  Some are good, like the ones that protect us from corporations and other people trying to kill us.

The ones that are protecting us from ourselves should never have been made into law.  If someone wants to be an idiot and kill themselves, that's their right...  But, it doesn't make them any less stupid.

Quote from: RVertigo on April 06, 2006, 10:51:42 AM
Safety laws are all over the place...  Some are good, like the ones that protect us from corporations and other people trying to kill us.

The ones that are protecting us from ourselves should never have been made into law.  If someone wants to be an idiot and kill themselves, that's their right...  But, it doesn't make them any less stupid.

what a grey area.  If you really think about it. It IS illegal to kill yourself. 

I believe you have every right to be an idiot but, don't you think the government has the OBLIGATION to protects its citizens from themselves, at least in extreme cases, such as Helmet laws, speed laws, Laws against hard drug abuse (THC is not a drug)?

Well, I for one don't think it should be illegal to kill yourself.  But that's a whole other conversation.

I don't see why the government has an obligation to protect us from ourselves.  It's not like I ever asked them too.  I have mixed feelings on things like helmet and seatbelt laws.  I, for one, would never drive without a seatbelt, or ride without full gear.  But I understand that other people don't want to wear a seatbelt or a helmet or whatever, and I think they should have that right.  However, when they end up hurting themselves, a lot of the costs come back to us taxpayers, which isn't fair.  I shouldn't have to subsidize someone elses poor choices.  Texas is a good starting point.  You must wear a helmet, unless you carry a certain ammount of health insurance.

And I think the rules change when it comes to minors, who may not be informed enough to make smart children.  I often see people driving with their kids unbelted and crawling all over the back seat, which I think is tantamount to child abuse.

Quote from: aaronstj on April 06, 2006, 11:33:22 AM

And I think the rules change when it comes to minors, who may not be informed enough to make smart children.

thats funny.

like i said what a grey area.

  "what right does the government have to tell me what to do, and why didn't they pass a helmet law to protect my children"

not to get political, but it sounds very Democratic to me.

give but don't take.

Quote from: 3imo on April 06, 2006, 11:27:09 AM
what a grey area.  If you really think about it. It IS illegal to kill yourself...

man you really write some funny stuff. I can't wait for a ticket or a citation the day I kill myself... because after all, I will be doing something illegal 

Quote from: 3imo on April 06, 2006, 11:49:56 AM

Quote from: aaronstj on April 06, 2006, 11:33:22 AM

And I think the rules change when it comes to minors, who may not be informed enough to make smart children.

thats funny.

D'oh.  Decisions.

And, yes, I am very much a democrat.  I think it should be ok for people to make stupid, harmful decisions when they can only harm themselves.  That's the freedom is about.  But freedom must be tempered with wisdom, which children don't have.

Quote from: aaronstj on April 06, 2006, 11:33:22 AM
Texas is a good starting point.  You must wear a helmet, unless you carry a certain ammount of health insurance.

No one follows that though. Most don't even carry insurance.

Yeah, well, that's the trick.

Quote from: aaronstj on April 06, 2006, 11:33:22 AM
That's the freedom is about. But freedom must be tempered with wisdom

I never heard it put that way.  makes ya think. 

I like the way this has sparked a real debate of sorts. It is a tough issue to grapple with regardless of where you stand politically.

Technically speaking it isn't illegal to kill yourself. To my understanding there isn't any law enacted that makes suicide a crime (and thereby tried in criminal court - defendant: a corpse?) What is illegal, strangely enough, is if you ATTEMPT to kill yourself and aren't quite successful. Then you become a danger to yourself and are subject to loss of your freedom due to psychological reasons. Kind of a trip when you think about some of the loopholes there are to remove some of our most basic freedoms "for our own good."

I just don't like the precident it sets to have things dictated to me, even something as simple as a seatbelt. The biggest kick in the pants comes when you see a finger being shaken in your face by big brother about one thing or another as though it is morally right because they say so. I am ever confused as to why there is this need to dictate morality as well as personal safety.

::maybe slightly off topic but relevant i think::

Has anyone ever wondered why cigarettes are 'ok' and alcohol is 'ok' but somehow there is justification for marijuana to be the devil?or why prostitution is something to be fought? Now these type issues are much more of a blur, because you get into public health among other issues. But really, aren't cigs around because they can tax the tar out of them? and alcohol much the same?  Where does the line get drawn between 'let me live my own life' and 'please save me from myself, i just don't know any better?'

Quote from: EMTkid on April 07, 2006, 10:38:49 AM
But really, aren't cigs around because they can tax the tar out of them? and alcohol much the same?

This is exactly why.  That, and the alcohol and tobacco lobbies have a lot more money.