There it is gospel

Quote from: JasonD on May 10, 2006, 04:00:52 PM
I was under the impression that countersteering was to initiate the turn...

True, and it can be used to make mid-corner corrections (minute inputs to not upset the bike).

Quote from: JasonD on May 10, 2006, 04:00:52 PM...and then use your body weight the rest of the way through.

Correct.  Additionally, using your outside knee to "steer" the bike (with minute body adjustments, again, not to upset the bike)

Quote from: JasonD on May 10, 2006, 04:00:52 PMI didn't want to countersteer and make a slipping tire slip more.

You have learned well, grasshopper...you want to have all your major steering inputs done at the begining of the turn, and be at the proper lean angle for the turn, again, so as not to upset the bike and compromise traction (and lap time).

Sandpaper your tires?  Are you kidding me?  Don't do it!!!  Day to day riding will more than take any coating off of them. 

As for Idaho guy, pratice initiating all turns by countersteering into them.  It is the fastest way to get the bike to start turning.  The faster you go, the better it works.  About the pegs dragging, they will start folding up when you touch down, ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs.  Get out and practice.  There is no substitute for seat time.  Borrow someones dirt bike and get a feel for when the tires start sliding.  Do it enough and you will start to enjoy sliding around on the street.  I know that I do!!!

I just saw your post about the front slipping.  I think if it was actually slipping,  it would have dumped you on your head.  When the front goes, it usually happens pretty quick.  One thing a long time racer told me years ago was to keep your elbows up, ride in attack position, always attack the road.  Don't just putt along, spacing out.   Don't relax too much and enjoy the scenery.  That will be when you crash.  I don't mean hauling ass, racing along.  I mean extreme focus, scanning with your eyes, feeling for traction, trying to notice everything.  These things will come after a long time on two wheels, but if some one teaches you early on, maybe they will come sooner. 

Quote from: dwn4whadever on May 10, 2006, 03:51:53 PM
Did you countersteer as you got deeper into the turn.

If you are countersteering as you get deeper into a turn, you're either going too fast for the turn or the turn is a decreasing radius turn.  This is assuming proper throttle control (rolling on smoothly, gently, minutely, all the way through the turn (your hand should turn as slowly as the big hand of a clock)).

k So I got a question. I know what the MSF taught me about leaning harder if I'm not gonna make the turn but that seems to be only practical in ideal road situations. Where I live, the roads are sh!%. They're poorly patched and very uneven. Taking turns can be very bumpy. Plus the white spots (to mark the crosswalks) make the surface even more uneven. I force myself to take the turns slow because I feel if I lean into them hard and go fast the rear wheel will skip and hop and I will lose traction and low side. I'm just looking for guidance, experience, and what you guys think. 

Quote from: proudlom on August 18, 2004, 01:05:01 PM
The following does not mean I encourage you to try this, just trying to show some that don't understand how it works:



When leaning the bike, gravity (mg) wants to pull you onto your side.  Because you're obviously turning whilst leaning, the centripetal force (f) is pulling your tires into or towards that lean proportionally to your speed. This counters the effects of gravity pulling you down (keeping you up, and alive). Therefore, the faster you go, the harder you'll lean, and the sharper you'll corner.

Hope that was clear.

Ok so I've always wondered why the MSF said braking in corner will make you lowslide. Can you explain it?

Quote from: tussey on May 10, 2006, 04:57:07 PM
k So I got a question. I know what the MSF taught me about leaning harder if I'm not gonna make the turn but that seems to be only practical in ideal road situations. Where I live, the roads are sh!%. They're poorly patched and very uneven. Taking turns can be very bumpy. Plus the white spots (to mark the crosswalks) make the surface even more uneven. I force myself to take the turns slow because I feel if I lean into them hard and go fast the rear wheel will skip and hop and I will lose traction and low side. I'm just looking for guidance, experience, and what you guys think. 

Some of the roads near me aren't very good, and I usually slow down and take them nice and slow. When i drive my car, i make a note on how quickly i am going around said corners.

I have found that on the bike, even when i think i am going slow (in relation to the speed limit) around a corner, i actually take them slower in the car, so i have no issues with slowing down even more on the bike to keep safe.

I'm not saying stare at your speedo though the turn, though, make a quick glance maybe and compare it to when you're driving you car.. your 'slow' may not be as slow as you think it is.

I got out into the twisties today and I didn't notice any slippage like before. I've still got an inch of chicken strip on the back tire and h 3/4 inch on the front tire. I onlyhad two reoccuring problems today. One is that I've got a bad habit of braking into the corner, then getting on the gas at the apex, which is the best technique in a car, but I've heard that you'll wreck if you brake too hard into a corner on a bike. So I worked on that a bit. My second problem is that even though I know the bike won't have any problem, instead of leaning harder when I get in a turn a little too quick, I put on the brakes, and scare the hell out of myself. It just feels weird when I lean too far over. I can'ttalk my brain into letting me go that far. Oh, and I have a bad habit of entering the turn too quick and running over the apex.

Anyone out there wanna address some of these?

I frequent the large industrial parking lots at least once a week usually to practice cornering. I usually rip around the parking lots just in 1st gear and practice cornering and slow speed stuff.

Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
Anyone out there wanna address some of these?

The problems you describe are typical on the sportriding learning curve.  (1) Fast on the straights then stopping in the corners (squid!)....(2) running over the apex (sometimes that's the fastest way )...(3) can't scrub the chicken strips.   Also, braking while leaned over does eat into the available traction.

To overcome the (2) tendency you need to wait for the apex then flick it over quicker via countersteering.  Basically, you are afraid of running out of road so you try to rush the turn too early.

Now, to get yourself to lean the bike to the max you need to do two things:  Focus on loosening your deathgrip on the bars.  And, you must turn your head and look into the turn.  Those are the keys. 

Well, they were resurfacing Lakeshore Drive last time I was in your neck....  I hope they didn't take out all the good kinks.





     

If you're talking about lakeshore drive by Lake Lowell, it's still decent. That's the first place I went to practice cornering, but almost got run over by a tractor trailer. Thanks for the advice. Where are you from Gisser?

I have about 1.5 inch unused (totaly unused with rubber needles still sticking out) front tire. I dont need that patch for normal riding but, in critical situation if i lean far and start using that unused patch, i am afraid that it will fail to hold traction. Should i sand paper it so it would be ready for that critical moment?

I wouldn't if i were you id take the bike up some twisties and practice leaning into the corners till you can reduce the unused area of your tire. This helps you in two ways, one it will scratch in the tire which will be good and two, it will get you used to leaning at that angle for when you might need to in a critical situation. Just sandpapering the tire might make it get abit more traction the first time you use it, but if you have never had experience leaning that far the shock in a critical situation might cause you to lose it anyway. Breaking the tire in yourself will build your skill level.

Low speed parking lot maneuvers are a real good way to scrub in those.  Feathering the clutch, feeling for the friction zone (where the clutch just begins to grab; keep the throttle up to 4000rpm, and just use the clutch to "feed in" the power), counter lean your body to the outside of the turn (actually get your butt off the seat in that direction; one cheek), spin your head around in the direction you want to go, and turn.  This works for u-turns.  Look where you want to go.

Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
I got out into the twisties today and I didn't notice any slippage like before.

Good!

Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
I've still got an inch of chicken strip on the back tire and h 3/4 inch on the front tire.

Don't worry about this.  Some fast riders have plenty of chicken strip, they just use less tire.  It depends on your riding style, and remember alot of us can't get the last 1/2 inch of rear tire.

Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
I only had two reoccuring problems today.  One is that I've got a bad habit of braking into the corner, then getting on the gas at the apex, which is the best technique in a car, but I've heard that you'll wreck if you brake too hard into a corner on a bike.

Yes.  You're using up too much traction in braking.  It's upsetting the bike, causing it to want to stand up and steer straight to the outside of the turn.  Stop that.  Here's how:

Set-up for the turn - set your entry speed early, get all your braking and downshifting done before entering the turn, while you're still verticle.  So actually what you're doing is braking and downshifting to your entry speed.  Set the speed slower than you would normally.  Once you have safely negotiated the turn at that speed, then you can decide wheather or not you can take that turn faster the next time.
Also, at the same time you're picking your turn-in point (and your line through the turn).  Your turn-in point should start at the outside of the turn (not over the double yellow  ), as deep into the turn as you can see.  This gives you a good view as to where you're going to end up, since you should be looking where you want to go.  You already know where your apex is, or should be, as you should be late-apexing, to straighten out the turn and minimize your time leaned over.  This also helps set you up for the next turn.

And, it allows you time to get your body into the correct position: pinch the tank, get your weight off the bars, do the funky chicken (flap your elbows).

Look through the turn - Use your peripheral vision to execute the turn.  You've already picked your turn-in point, but now you should be looking through the turn to where you want to go.

Turn - countersteer to achive your desired lean angle (you're still looking through the turn).

Roll-on - add throttle.  Gradually increasing it through the turn.  You only need 5hp to get through a turn (this is another reason why small bikes can go through turns so quickly, but that's another thread).

Quote from: JasonD on May 20, 2006, 03:24:45 PM
My second problem is that even though I know the bike won't have any problem, instead of leaning harder when I get in a turn a little too quick, I put on the brakes, and scare the hell out of myself.

See above.