Quote from: hmmmnz on June 13, 2006, 04:43:30 PM
i'm not saying at all not to use your brakes, or that you should use your gears to slow you down.
i'm saying match your gears/revs to your speed when you're braking.

I agree with this.  When slowing, I'm braking (both brakes obviously) and starting to go down through the gears.  I will click down a gear, let the clutch out, feel the drag slow me slightly, cluch in, click down another etc. while still braking.  Throttle mostly closed at this point.  Usually I don't do this for every gear - the last two I'll just click down holding the clutch in as others have mentioned as I'm reaching a stop.  Things that change this are: if I'm expecting a light to change, or it has already changed but there's a line of traffic forcing me to slow down, then I won't coast at all - I'll always be in gear ready to go.

The advice about shaking the manual tranny habit (cars) of getting off the clutch as soon as possible is great advice.  I managed to ace my MSF maneuvers without learning that, but it has came naturally after  while.   

Other comments: ROLL on and off the throttle as smoothly as you can.  Don't let it snap shut or yank it wide open.  Squeeze the clutch rather than pulling the lever.  Picture yourself squeezing one of those stress balls rather than pulling a switch.  It's that kind of motion.

When going down through the gears brake FIRST, then shift down.  If your going down a gear (or two) to accelerate then roll back the throttle some as you let the clutch out (smoothly).

You shouldn't need the PRIme for regular starting and driving.

Learn all the above skills in your neighborhood during quiet times of the day before venturing into traffic.  I racked up 50 miles on local streets before hitting the highway.  Do lots of stops and starts.  Then start practising with signals etc.  Work on smoothness not speed.  Once you're smooth the speed will come.

Oh and just in case the picture (avatar) is of you, remember to wear a helmet while you're doing all the above.

Good luck.

C.

Hmm....I rode today and seems to be getting better, I guess it's just a matter of practice.  A bit confusing, but advices did help! Thanks everyone! and yes I did hit the books to get a better understanding.

what exactly is dangerous about coasting with the clutch in and in the right gear incase you need to go?

Seams to me you're taking more of a risk or messing up and wearing out clutches faster, by engine breaking everytime.

Quote from: Mitch on June 14, 2006, 06:44:23 AM
what exactly is dangerous about coasting with the clutch in and in the right gear incase you need to go?

Seams to me you're taking more of a risk or messing up and wearing out clutches faster, by engine breaking everytime.

I believe the argument is that if you don't have it in the right gear for your speed (which you'll know if you let out the clutch lever) then you risk not being able to get out of the way or the rear tire breaking loose. 

Engine braking does not wear stuff out to an extreme degree. Motorcycle engines are much higher performance engines than a car due to high rpms etc. . . You are ment to use engine braking just as if you are taught to drive a car they teach you it is unsafe to coast because engine braking helps you slow down. You shouldn't coast with the clutch in for long periods of time. That will in the long run do you more damage than letting the engine brake. Engines are designed to do it.

Quote from: Kasumi on June 14, 2006, 08:23:59 AM
Engine braking does not wear stuff out to an extreme degree. Motorcycle engines are much higher performance engines than a car due to high rpms etc. . . You are ment to use engine braking just as if you are taught to drive a car they teach you it is unsafe to coast because engine braking helps you slow down. You shouldn't coast with the clutch in for long periods of time. That will in the long run do you more damage than letting the engine brake. Engines are designed to do it.

I tell people this all the time.  Engine braking is taken into serious consideration when designing the engine and its fuel system.  People seem to think it's bad because it makes a lot of noise.  So unless you're driving around in a WRC race car with turbo anti-lag and intentionally shoot flames out your exhaust everytime you engine brake, engine braking is almost harmless.

Also look at it this way: you get BETTER gas mileage coasting with the clutch engaged then you do with it disengaged.   So next time you're going down a hill, downshift, let that clutch out, and stop riding your damn brakes!

i have been using my gears to slow me down....find it works well and as mentioned b4 its good idea to let the engine slow you down...............



my advice from newbie to newbie


listen to the oher users, they have been much longer with more riding experiance

There are two damn good reasons not to engine brake:

1.  Your brake light doesn't come on! 

2.  You're not practicing correct stopping technique.  You should always use both brakes so that in an emergency, that's what you do automatically.  By grabbing the clutch, and using both brakes, you're doing what you should do in an emergency stop.  That way you are more attuned to how your bike will behave.  You know how much rear brake you can give.  You know how fast you can increase the front brake. 

1 is easy to compensate for.  2...not so much.

Quote from: Mitch on June 14, 2006, 06:44:23 AM
what exactly is dangerous about coasting with the clutch in and in the right gear incase you need to go?

Seams to me you're taking more of a risk or messing up and wearing out clutches faster, by engine breaking everytime.

It's not excessively wearing out the clutch or the motor to engine brake.  If you do it jerkily it's putting stress on the driveline, but I don't think anyone is advocating that.

C.

Quote from: Egaeus on June 14, 2006, 09:43:19 AM
2.  You're not practicing correct stopping technique.  You should always use both brakes so that in an emergency, that's what you do automatically.  By grabbing the clutch, and using both brakes, you're doing what you should do in an emergency stop.

Not all cases of slowing down are emergency stops.  I don't know about you, but I slow down gradually and early for 95% of my stops, just like I would in a car and I do so using a combination of brakes and downshifting, just like I do in a car.  When I'm braking I always use both brakes.  As you point out, that's an important habit to get into.  But it is not correct technique to coast to a stop from highway speeds.

C.

Exactly. Plus you use engine braking and a combination of engine braking and brakes when coming to a completle stop. Thus your brake light would be on. Are you saying when you come into a corner which is a touch slower than the one you just went thru that you disengage the clutch and brake using brakes only then reengage and go round because that would be lethal. If the corner is a touch slower i let the engine slow me down.

Like I said:

Quote from: Kerry on June 13, 2006, 10:54:58 AM[engine braking is] a fine method if you always have the luxury of stopping at your leisure (which is when I use it) ...  but "stuff" happens.

I simply encourage riders to learn to shift down during a stop even if they aren't able to engine brake through every gear (due to an unexpected fast stop situation).  Few things are ever "all or nothing" - I do it both ways, depending on the circumstances.

Speaking of all or nothing, I wonder which approach would cost more over time.  (Fuel + engine wear vs brake pads + rotor steel)  I don't expect an answer on this, just a thought question.

Thanks for the explanation.  Yeah...I've only drivin' manual cars (I like the extra control you get).  I had the exact problem when trying to turn while going really slow.  Trained not to ride the clutch, but I guess I need to break the habit.  So when you guys are riding through the twisties I'd imagine you're revving in medium/high range and using a lot of clutch/engine breaking for control right?  I mean you wouldn't want to use brakes while in the twisties....right? 

In the twistes alot of engine braking is useful and using the clutch to smoothly change gear although i rarely use the clutch as im actually going just for changing gear. Its harder to use brakes in the twisties as your forever lent over when it becomes impossible to use front brake and the backbrake can only be used gently if absolutly neccesary thus you can use engine braking to a certain effect.

The question was about stopping, not slowing down in the curves. 

Fine, when stopping you use your engine braking and a combination of your brakes. As i come to a stop i will be changing down a few gears using the engine to slow me down. When i get to about 2nd im usually at the junction (i don't wana spend the previous half a mile changing down gears to come to a full stop at a junction) but the combination of engine braking and brakes brings you to a safe stop possible in second where you just click down into first. If when you were coming up to a junction and you were in 5th and you pulled the clutch in and started braking, the first thing is you begin to lose the giroscopic force for the speed your at (you become unstable) second thing is if for any reason you need to get the hell outta there you let the clutch out and find your either in too higher gear so you have no power whatsoever or your in too low a gear for your speed and you lock the rear wheel up. In any instance engines are designed to give the effect of engine braking. You should utilise it not try and avoid it, especially on motorcycles they were designed to use it.

Quote from: Kasumi on June 15, 2006, 02:14:23 AM
...and you were in 5th and you pulled the clutch in and started braking, the first thing is you begin to lose the giroscopic force for the speed your at (you become unstable)

You made a completely sensible post that stands well on its own, and then added this BS tidbit.     Totally unnecessary.  Your bike becomes unstable because your engine is not spinning as fast?  I'd buy less stable, not unstable... like 2% less...  I've ridden around with the engine off (downhill of course) and haven't noticed any reduced stability.

I agree with you that the engines and drivetrains are designed for this, and you should not avoid engine braking because you're afraid of breaking stuff.

The only thing I disagree with is the idea that you must engine brake all the freakin time.  And that's what it sounds like a lot of folks are saying.  There's a time and a place for everything, and sometimes things are not appropriate for other times and places.  That's ok.

The only reason I respond to nitpicky things like this is that there's a lot of newbies on the forum, and I don't want them to learn all these crazy "old biker's tales" that give them too much more to think about than simply driving safely.

Engine braking has to do with:

- Keeping in the right gear for the speed
- Making simple slight speed adjustments where brake levers are not necessary
- Slowing down if you have plenty of time
- Slowing down if your brakes have failed? 
- Probably a bunch more sane, rational things

Engine braking has absolutely nothing to do with:

- Saving your freakin clutch
- Saving your engine, valves, crankshaft, chain, etc...
- Saving gas? 
- Saving your brake pads, rotors, etc...   
- Saving face in an internet argument
- Preventing government mind control
- etc...

Let's just be clear on what things are true, and what things are handed down by kooky old bikers and mechanics.

Quote from: Kasumi on June 15, 2006, 02:14:23 AM
if for any reason you need to get the hell outta there you let the clutch out and find your either in too higher gear so you have no power whatsoever or your in too low a gear for your speed and you lock the rear wheel up.

Are you so out of tune with your motorcycle that you don't know about what gear you're supposed to be in for what speed?  And do you not know how to blip the throttle?

Quote from: Egaeus on June 15, 2006, 10:01:20 AM
Are you so out of tune with your motorcycle that you don't know about what gear you're supposed to be in for what speed?  And do you not know how to blip the throttle?

That's why in my original post, I said I follow my speed with my gearbox without letting out the clutch.  Maybe I'm just "in tune."  If I want to get up and go, I'm always in the right gear, I don't need to let the clutch out every gear to confirm it for me.

+1