Just a little something that was totally un-natural for me except in a slide. I used to campaign (that sounds so much better than "fart around the track") an 86' Z28 in the SCCA. So the only time I was counter-steering was when something VERY VERY bad had happened (which was often at first)  "I did that donut on purpose......... "

The main reason I say it is because that is the one thing that has gotten me out of the way of some nutballs on four wheels. If you don't already know counter-steering, learn it. If you already know, practice it. Counter steering is possibly the most important skill in my opinion. That and learning to stop on a dime! (And give change.)

By the way the "counter steering" talk is kind of off topic IMO.

It's like telling someone who is trying to learn how to drive a car for the first time "learn how to drift" or "practive lift-off oversteer and saving it" - it's not really a skill one should be practicing when first starting out on a bike IMO.  If you're NEEDING to countersteer then you're either going too fast for your own good, or you wouldn't need to be asking us for any tips.

Welcome and enjoy the ride 

Quote from: B18C5-EH2 on June 20, 2006, 12:23:32 PM
By the way the "counter steering" talk is kind of off topic IMO.

It's like telling someone who is trying to learn how to drive a car for the first time "learn how to drift" or "practive lift-off oversteer and saving it" - it's not really a skill one should be practicing when first starting out on a bike IMO.  If you're NEEDING to countersteer then you're either going too fast for your own good, or you wouldn't need to be asking us for any tips.

counter-steering is very important, unless you ride around under 10 mph, it's how you steer.  It is one of the major topics in the MSF course, right behind 'turn your head in the direction you want to go.'  When you're riding safely down the road doing the speed limit and that dumb Buddha Loves You in the SUV on the cell phone pulls out in front of you, you need to know how to counter-steer to avoid hitting her.  Personally, I think all of that is summed up in the 'take the MSF course' tip.

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counter-steering is very important, unless you ride around under 10 mph, it's how you steer.  It is one of the major topics in the MSF course, right behind 'turn your head in the direction you want to go.'  When you're riding safely down the road doing the speed limit and that dumb Buddha Loves You in the SUV on the cell phone pulls out in front of you, you need to know how to counter-steer to avoid hitting her.  Personally, I think all of that is summed up in the 'take the MSF course' tip.

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Well I'm not sure how I've survived a year's worth of riding without ever taking the MSF course and learning how to "counter steer."  I'm certainly not bumping around town at under 10mph as you say.  I guess the MSF course is valuable, but there are some people who can actually pick up riding a bike without ever needing to take the course.  It's like how there are people who pick up racing cars, or basically anything on wheels without ever having formal schooling on the matter, you know?

It sounds to me like they're giving a name to something I'm already doing then, huh?

When I think of actually counter steering I think of the way dirt trackers steer around circle tracks.  That's to say you're turning left with the bike in full lean while having the bars locked in the right-steered position.

I'm a car guy first and foremost though, so forgive me for applying terminology that I've been used to from doing numerous track days and auto-xes on my racecar.

I'd consider myself to be a decent biker who enjoys curvy roads, and again perhaps i've been using the so-called counter steering method without knowing that MSF and you guys labeled it as such.

Can you clarify as to what exactly you mean by counter steer and what MSF courses define it as?  I'm asking a serious question here for real.  I hope you don't take my tone the wrong way being that we're on a message board.

Use the search field at the top of this message board ( its the reason I only have a couple of posts) turns out if you have a problem, someone's probably had the same or similar question posted

BTW, I'm in Houston for the Summer, then back to Austin for the Fall

Counter-steering is where you push the left handgrip to make the bike fall over to the left, initiating a left turn.  It is the quickest way to turn.  From a safety standpoint, utilizing the agility of a vehicle to avoid an accident is a good idea.

from my understanding, counter-steering is the ONLY way to turn a motorcycle once you go above a certain speed, like 5-10 mph. B18C5-EH2 , you can ride around for years and have an intuitive grasp of counter-steering, but like LimaXray said, when something surprises you or in a panic situation, you need to KNOW what to do, not just have a vague sense of how the bike reacts.

some articles on counter-steering by the master strategy group:
http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html
http://www.msgroup.org/TIP183.html
http://www.msgroup.org/TIP189.html
http://www.msgroup.org/TIP196.html

"
When I think of actually counter steering I think of the way dirt trackers steer around circle tracks.  That's to say you're turning left with the bike in full lean while having the bars locked in the right-steered position.
"

in this sense, you're not describing countersteering as it normally applies to motorcycles, you're describing 'steering into the skid'.

edit to add more resources:
zen of motorcycle riding
http://www.geocities.com/american_motorcycle_association/crashcures.html#m1

proficient motorcyling
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1889540536/002-2643794-6194401?v=glance&n=283155

Looks like my counter-steering post touched off a debate!

I just wanted to pass it on because it has saved my life, once about ten minutes ago.

I've been poking around in that nebulous zone where steering and countersteering overlap a bit. Kind of weird and spacey. If you are already going right either action (left or right steering) will increase how much it goes right. Basically it increases either way! 

And then sometimes it seems to have little effect! Weird! Fun to play with though after you get more confident, helps you learn. 

I poked around doing U-turns today for the hell of it. (You have to chill out somehow after beating a ZX-6R the other day!  90% rider. 10% bike) Two parking spaces, one full U-turn. Easily inside of the lines! Would like to get it inside of one if it is possible!

Then after I was finished throughly freaking out the security guards ("WTF is he doing?") Practiced emergency stops from 10, 25, 45 and 75 mph on a deserted dead end straight-away. Amazing how long the 75 actually takes. Makes you really appreciate the energy you have going.

Anyways now that I've throughly thread jacked let's just put it this way, "Ride, ride and then ride some more!"

B18C5-EH2  you need to take the msf course.... yes i know it can get boring but youll learn new tricks.... i took it a few months after starting to ride and it helped me to do some stuff that i didnt know that it could be dangerous

Oh okay so basically they call turning countersteering then.



When you're more familiar with motorsports and cars the term "countersteer" means having the wheel turned in the opposite direction of the turn you're in the middle of.  Basically if you've seen cars drifting then thats the best example of countersteering I can think of.

In the sense of having my back wheel step out on me mid turn (on my Sv650) then I have certainly had to countersteer in the sense that I'm used to hearing the term used.  Making a hard right turn, hitting the throttle in mid turn and having the back tire slide outward, I steered the bars to the left and stayed in the throttle (and my lean to the right) to complete the turn and not lift as to highside.

No offense to anyone who pushes the MSF course, but again some people just know how to ride without ever having taken the MSF course.

...and don't get me wrong here - I'm not saying I'm bad-ass Billy Biker here at all.  I'm sure I'd get raped on track days by plenty of you here.  I'm saying that some people grasp the fundamentals of riding a motorcycle without having it explained to them.  The fact that I have ridden my motorcycle for over a year and had to dodge numerous soccer moms without incedent tells me I guess I know how to countersteer even if I wasn't aware it was labeled as such.

BTW:

People laughed at me when I told them I thought my BMX bicycle racing experience helped me pick up riding a motorcycle so easily, but in essence if you are an expert at riding a bicycle there are a lot of principles you can apply even to a 400lb. motorcycle.  Hell IMO BALANCE is they biggest advantage in learing to ride IMO.

Quote from: B18C5-EH2 on June 21, 2006, 07:54:35 AM
No offense to anyone who pushes the MSF course, but again some people just know how to ride without ever having taken the MSF course.

No offense to anyone who hasn't taken the MSF course and thinks they just know how to ride, but you should really give it a shot.  I taught myself, took the MSF, and spent a season unlearning my bad habits.  The MSF has made me much safer.  I could convince my bike around a corner by instinct without knowing exactly how it was happening, but when they showed me how it was happening and forced me to harness it, I could control it around the corner.  The avoidance drill was critical for understanding countersteering (and avoiding obstacles, duh).  The S-Box (I think it was) was critical for controlling focus and head/eye positioning, even if it took me more than a year to fully internalize those concepts.  (Basically after being ashamed at my performance of it, and drilling it until I got it. )

You could go the rest of your life without ever taking the MSF course.  In my opinion, there is a small chance that the rest of your life will be shorter without it.  (I said small chance, I'm not asking for attitude!)  You put on a great deal of risk when you decide to go out on two wheels, it's a good idea to put some things back in your favor.  We do it with good maintenance, we do it with good gear, and we should do it with good training, too.

Quote from: B18C5-EH2 on June 21, 2006, 07:54:35 AM
Oh okay so basically they call turning countersteering then.

In the sense of having my back wheel step out on me mid turn (on my Sv650) then I have certainly had to countersteer in the sense that I'm used to hearing the term used.  Making a hard right turn, hitting the throttle in mid turn and having the back tire slide outward, I steered the bars to the left and stayed in the throttle (and my lean to the right) to complete the turn and not lift as to highside.

I am not sure that is the "countersteering" that the MSF course is teaching. From what I was taught, countersteering is used to *initiate* the turn and maintaining the lean. Basically there are different ways you can lean the bike to cause the turning. You can (to some degress) start the lean by weight transfer or by pushing down on the bar, but in order to steer quickly and effortlessly at speed, countersteering is the easiest way to initiate the lean.

I'm quite comfortable on my bike, now. The extent of my training thus far was just reading stuff online. I take the MSF in a couple weeks, though. I'm looking forward to it! No matter how comfortable on my bike I've gotten, I still think the MSF will prove extremely valuable.