LostSurf,

Not long ago, my situation regarding motorcycles was similar to yours.  Back in August/September of 2005, I was 17 years old and I wanted to get a motorcycle, just like you.  I was still 17 when I actually got my bike in March of this year.  I can tell you how things worked out for me, but it's important to remember that you are not me and my parents are not your parents.  Your parents may be more or less stubborn than mine, and to other people (your parents), you may appear to be more or less ready for riding than I was, if you know what I mean.  So, it follows that my recommendations might not help, but I'm sure that common sense has already told you this.

Anyway, with that little disclaimer out of the way, you have to start with yourself:  though you already said you are, you have to really, truly give yourself an honest evaluation on whether or not you are ready to start riding.  Riding a motorcycle on the street is no joke.  It doesn't matter if you ride a liter-bike or a 50cc scooter; it is very easy to get yourself seriously injured or killed on any motorcycle.  Take a look at this website and really think about crashing.  Think about the extreme pain that this guy had to go through and the depression of sitting around injured like that for such a long time.  The injuries are real and they will hurt like almost nothing you have ever felt before; if you think rug burn from a carpet stings, you don't even want to imagine what roadrash feels like.  Granted, this guy was injured largely because he was irresponsible, but remember that accidents happen to everyone.  Based on your posts thus far, you seem like a fairly mature young man, but I'm not really one to pass judgement on somebody -- good or bad.  Only you can determine if you are mature enough to take riding seriously.  I don't mean to try and scare you away from riding, but there's nothing wrong with waiting if you think you aren't ready for riding yet and want to get some more time behind a wheel.  You may thank yourself in the end if you aren't really ready.  On the other hand, if you lie to yourself, saying that you're ready when you really know you aren't, you can very easily wind up lying in a hospital bed with painful injuries and parents that have broken hearts -- both of which take a long time to heal.  And when you're sitting there thinking about it, you'll regret not answering honestly.  So, be honest with yourself.

Now that my rant is over -- and I really don't mean to scare you away -- I can offer you some advice.  Money is, obviously, one of the most important things in achieving your goal.  As I'm sure you've found out, getting thousands of dollars can take a while when you are making near-minimum-wage like I was.  It took me several months of working five days a week -- weekends and some weekdays after school -- to get enough to finally ride.  Arguably, just as important as getting the money is saving[/u] your money.  Spending a few dollars here and there for the movie tickets and a double whopper will add up very quickly when you're doing it several times a week.  Remember that spending even just five dollars for a fast food meal can be almost 10% of a full day's (eight hours) work at minimum wage in the USA.  10% might not sound like much when you're dealing with 50 dollars, but 10% of $2,500.00 ($250.00) can easily make the difference between riding in full gear or riding without boots and riding pants -- both things that you should never ride without unless you want to deal with incredible amounts of pain and an equally incredible hospital bill.  With me being very close in age to you, I know that it's a nice feeling to finally have money and be able to buy things whenever you want.  But if you want a motorcycle without waiting for years (when you turn 18, it will be hard to save money because you have so many other responsibilities and new things to pay for), you need to discipline yourself into saving your money...and stay true to your discipline.  Get a bank account (or some kind of savings account at a financial institution) and throw all your paychecks in there.  Put it in a savings account so it will be harder to spend your money on irrelevant little things that will slowly eat away your earnings.  Does this mean you can't spend your money on other things and reap the fruits of your labor occasionally?  Of course not.  But be careful, because getting in the swing of letting small, non-important purchases get in the way of your financial goals is a bad, bad habit to get into.  Things like "i've realized i should be spending my hard earned money on something worthwhile so why not get a bike!?" tell me that this should be no big deal for you, and that's something to be proud of, as many people around where I live would sooner kill themselves before they save a little money.

Having your money all in one pile and ready-to-go helps you in other ways, too.  One thing that upset me was that, with me being "only" 17, I couldn't legally engage in a loan -- even with a co-signature from parents will good credit.  As a result, I had to wait longer, but this made the buying process go by easier in the end, although I must admit I wish I could have had some easy credit to put towards my credit history.  Consider doing one of the two things:  save up all your money so you can buy everything with cold, hard cash, or get your parents to take a loan under their name for the motorcycle and have you pay the "bills."   Personally, I think the first one would be more realistic for you.  Your parents don't seem to be very willing at this point, and, of course, getting them to sign a loan requires them to be willing.  With the cash option, you don't need your parents' cooperation, but you have to wait longer, and you don't have the immediate opportunity to seal up some easy, solid credit history.  Still, you'll be able to get your bike before you are 18.  Also, one very important thing that saving up cash instead of credit is that it puts extra emphasis on how serious you are about the motorcycle.  Your parents will admire you for being so disciplined to save up all that cash and not spend it on other things.  This can help massively in getting them to see things from your perspective, and understand that you are the real deal and not half-hearted about it.

Also on the money topic, as others have mentioned, make sure you take everything into account.  You need the motorcycle, of course, and I would highly[/u] recommend getting full protective gear (no slacking!), full-coverage insurance (it will save your ass and you will thank yourself for not getting just liability), and a MSF or equivilent rider training course.  Then you have your registration/tags/emissions fees and your permit (I had to get my riding permit because I was under 18.    I don't know if this is true in PA), even though these are usually small.  AlphaFire provided a good list to look at to understand just how expensive all of this together can be, but do your own research to find out how much all of this will cost.  Don't short-change yourself on any of it, because it is likely to bite you later on if you do.  The feeling of not having to worry about any of these things alone is worth it.

Once you have your money goals all planned out, the next thing to focus on in order to get the motorcycle is the parents.  It's important to respect your parents and not just ignore them.  They love you and they don't want to see you hurt or killed.  Instead of just saying, "Whatever, I'm getting this bike whether you like it or not," show them that you can be exceptionally responsible in achieving your goals of riding a motorcycle.  Educate them on the facts of riding.  This can be tough, and it doesn't sound like you have been having much luck.  I wasn't in much better shoes.  My mom was skeptical and my dad absolutely did not want me to get one.  He would never stop talking about how dangerous it was and how I was going to get killed.  I also heard the "It's not you I'm worried about.  I'm worried about all the other crazy drivers out there" line non-stop from him.  He talked about how I wouldn't have any money leftover to live anywhere.  He said everything to get me to not buy a bike.  He even seriously pressed the idea of him buying me a car with no strings attached if I would never buy a road bike.  I think part of the problem with my dad was that he rode motorcycles when he was in his 20s.  Although he rode dirt bikes as a kid and even podiumed in a few racing tournaments, his first street bike was a 1973 Kawasaki H2 Mach IV.  This was a 750cc three-cylinder two-stroke "superbike" that was modified by him to put out over 100 rear-wheel horsepower (for the 70s, this was ridiculous).  I'm sure he had more than a few frightening experiences and probably almost killed himself on more than one occasion.  Thus, he was terrified of street motorcycles and even more scared of the thought of me on one. 

Anyway...they care about you, and that is why they are reluctant.  But if you are a genuinely responsible person, it might be possible to convince them.  These are all things that helped me out.  Some of them helped more than others, and they might not help you.  Regardless, they're worth considering.  As I've said, getting your financial situation in gear can really impress your parents and get the door open for you.  This sealed the deal in getting my parents to see that I was serious.  While this won't help you, I had been taking a break from working before I started saving up for a motorcycle.  When my parents saw that I got a job primarily to get a bike, they saw that I was dedicated.  It sounds to me like you have been talking to them about things like protective equipment, starter bikes, and riding instruction.  This is good.  Make sure you talk about these things as much as you talk about other motorcycle-related topics.  Try and get a riding instruction class that will take place around when you think you will actually have the money to cover all of your aforementioned riding costs.  As others have said, this is good because all of the course material will be fresh in your mind when you actually get to riding your own bike.  Regardless, it is important that you get up and make the call and reserve your spot.  This will show your parents that you are not joking -- no joke that you really want a motorcycle, and no joke that you take motorcycle safety seriously.  In a worst-case scenario, you can always cancel your reservation and almost certainly get all of your money refunded back to you (check the class policy on this).  Sticking to what you say and following through with it will ease their worries. 

How are you as a driver?  You said you have no speeding tickets, so I assume you have a clear record.  When you drive, are you an aggressive driver?  Do you take risks?  Do you sometimes get upset and yell when people do things like cut you off?  All of these things influence how your parents think that you will ride your bike, and they may be right.  I've always been a pretty mellow driver; I typically drive with the flow of traffic, don't accelerate hard (unless it's necessary, of course), my braking is smooth and spread out, I always use my turn signals and check my mirrors/blind spots, I keep a healthy following distance so when the car next to ve needs to get over RIGHT NOW and they cut me off, I don't get angry...If you have a lot of good driving habits and aren't a big risk-taker, parents will respect that.  If you're the kind of driver who weaves in and out of traffic, always slams on the brakes, always has the accelerator down heavy, is always yelling or complaining about other drivers, and take a lot of risks that result in some close calls, your parents won't even consider letting you get a motorcycle.  If you have some bad driving habits (again, be honest), try and work on being a better driver to reassure your parents when they are in the car with you and you are driving.  My parents always loved to let me drive (they trusted my driving, although I question them doing this with me still having my fair share of inexperience), and I think this helped them gain confidence in me being a good rider as well. 

It's good that you've been driving for a little while.  I would drive a fair amount when I got my permit and when I got my new job in autumn, I would drive almost 50 miles a day to work in rush-hour traffic on the way home for several months.  So if you are getting a fair amount of driving experience like I did, it may help to get parents to recognize this.

Bringing up things like grades and whatnot may help, but I personally think this is not a very accurate gauge of how responsible you'll be.  I know some kids who have fantastic grades who have been in multiple accidents (all their fault) and are still horrible drivers, and I know some kids who are failing in multiple classes who have never been in an accident and are very safe, very focused drivers.  In the end, if you're a good guy with a good head on your shoulders, your parents will see this and hopefully grant your wish.  And if they still refuse, October isn't horribly far off, either.

As for what bike to choose...It's obvious that you need something that will be very inexpensive to buy and maintain.  As others have said before me, used bikes are important to keep the costs down.  It's just as important that your first motorcycle has power that is predictable and forgiving, lightweight, and takes abuse well.  Both the Ninja 250R and the GS500E have these things.  I prefer the 250R due to its lighter weight, less powerful engine, and better fuel economy.  However, the GS500E has less fairing and is a fantastic-looking bike, in my opinion.  To be honest, you can't go wrong with either one if you treat them with respect. 

Anybody who automatically discounts a 250 because they are "slow" has almost certainly never spent a few hundred miles on one around town and in normal usage.  With a 0-60 time of 5.75 seconds, the 250R is only slow in the acceleration department if your former everyday drive was an Enzo Ferrari.  As for top speed:  that depends on several things, but many people over at the Ninja 250 Riders Club report indicated top speeds of over 100 MPH -- or even more with sprocket changes.  This is more than enough for a new rider, in my opinion.

Also, a bit of advice for you if you end up getting the Ninja 250R:  when getting insurance for it, always refer to it as the EX250 (its former model name).  As has been mentioned before in this thread, some insurance companies will automatically increase the fee if they hear either "Ninja" or "R" in the model name.

Last but not least, dual-purpose motorcycles between 250cc and 500cc from the big four of Japan are outstanding first bikes.  They may not look pretty, but they are fun as hell to ride on the street and off-road, they're easy to work on, very newbie-friendly, lightweight, get good fuel economy, dirt cheap to buy, insure, and maintain/repair, and take newbie abuse fantastically.  You'll be hard-pressed to find a better bike to introduce you to street riding.

Uh...  Are you gonna get that published?   

just kidding.  I was able to read some of it.  and basically it's confirmation of what we've been saying, except from a teenager.  I'm impressed at TheCurve.

as a lad i had a few bikes but my favourite by far was when i was 16 and had just got my full licence(we can get our learners at 15 in new zealand) was a honda xr250 its a dirt bike but will do 130kph all day(80mph) not terribly fast but the thing would go any where, was cheap to run easy to maintain, and basically indestructable, (yep i had lots of crashes on it, all off road though)
if i was to start again i would have got that bike from the start instead of a 55hp rgv250,
so think about road legal dirt bikes, i think they would be cheaper to insure as well.
good luck

after reading all these posts you should probably get a busa. 

Quote from: tussey on July 13, 2006, 09:05:22 AM
after reading all these posts you should probably get a busa. 

Quote from: Squid on http://www.cmyoung.com/bikewreck.html#CautionHey man I was going through a Hayabusa forum when I saw this. I'm 16 years old and about to buy a 2004 Hayabusa in a few months. Your story just totally changed the way I think about leathers and gear. I hope your feeling better and are all healed up. Take care of yourself.          Nathan

Just like that kid, eh? 

Saw that on the page TheCurve linked to with the story of that guy's wreck...what a maroooon!!

the curve - that was great (ur first post too so i bet theres plenty more to come).. and i have to mention i'm not planning to get this bike anytime soon like this summer or anything.. i want to wait until i am 18 cause right now just the line 'a 17 year old on a street bike' sounds a little iffy to me.  since i turn 18 in october i was just planning to continue saving my money (which i do, i get paid 8/hr and its in checks so they sit under my bed until my mom tells me i should put it in the bank cause i like the fact that i HAVE the money and CANT spend it on stupid little stuff, and also sounds a little cheesy but i have a cartoon in my room that sealed shut and i put my loose change and a couple bucks here and there in it so i cant get it either).. and since its october that means winter is going to right around the corner so i'm just goin to focus on my school/sports and if i have time probably pick up a job (no landscaping/grass cutting in winter haha) and wait for spring/summer.. so i'll be like 18 and a half and then be 100% serious about the bike...

thats why i'm trying to do this now - plan it all out responsibly and have more time to think/convince parents

If you want to ride next year.. you should start looking at bikes in January through March.  Bikes will be cheapest then.

while i was researching i found this: http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/NinjaGScomparo07a.pdf

We don't like to talk about that. 

Quote from: lostsurf on July 13, 2006, 11:17:14 AM
while i was researching i found this: http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/NinjaGScomparo07a.pdf

Yeah. The Ninja is a "superior" bike over the GS in pretty much every review. Honestly though, the review only means so much. Go sit on both of them, go ride both of them if you can. Then choose which bike feels better to you. It wont matter much that the Kawi is a "superior" bike if you cant get your foot under the shifter, or your legs cramp up from the seating position, etc. 

I don't know about anyone else, but I had my heart set on a naked bike, so I never really considered a Ninja.

Quote from: GS Jenn on July 13, 2006, 02:44:25 PMI don't know about anyone else, but I had my heart set on a naked bike, so I never really considered a Ninja.

Yeah...  I had my heart set on a late 60's UJM...  But, the GS was close enough.

Quote from: Altephor on July 12, 2006, 01:49:12 PM
People say that 250 is harder to get to highway speeds.  I don't understand this.

The 250 runs the quarter in what.. 14s?  My civic does it in 16 but I have no trouble accelerating to highway speeds.  The 250 surely out accelerates my civic.

Cars and bikes are much different, obviously.
My bike may run faster than my car in the quarter mile (I drive a miata) but from a roll @ 70 the car would take the bike, and keep going up to 130+
The power to weight ratio only works for so long 

On topic: i say get the ninja 

Quote from: lostsurf on July 13, 2006, 11:17:14 AM
while i was researching i found this: http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/NinjaGScomparo07a.pdf

Man, I am selling my gs right now and getting a 500R!!


Yeah right!

Quote from: mike_mike on July 12, 2006, 09:27:31 PM

Quote from: AlphaFire X5 on July 12, 2006, 01:35:17 PM
I'm 19 and pay $145/year for minimum liability with Dairyland, so insurance is miniscule at the very least. I paid $170/year when I first got the bike.

I pay $2200/year to ride the GS



note to self: move to texas

say what?
fully covered and max med i only pay just over 300 a year.
22 years old,  progressive

gieco, on the other hand with 1,000 deduc and no med it was 1300 a year.

also, sweet deal here for those that didnt know,

my gs is better than a 05 stock ninja 500.

in what ways you ask?

1. both bikes filled at same time. ninja runs out of fuel before me. (and when i say that, i mean my buddy didn't go back off of reserve when we filled up) i had not even gotten into the reserve yet.

2. 60-100 runs i take the lead every time.

3. all though the ninja had better off line TQ, i can pull on him if he/she doesnt know how to ride.

4. the gs feels bigger and more stable (three people, all rode both bikes and cam to same solution)

5. the ninja 500 is no longer made (2006 is last year, being replaced by 650 ninja)

Sounds like you're approaching this very sensibly.  Here are some ideas for dealing with the parental units:

1. Go ahead and take the MSF course when you can afford it and have time.  Here in Southern California, the waiting list to get into a class can be a couple of months.

2. When you review the costs of various bikes, be sure to check on the cost of insurance.  My husband and I were just rudely surprised to discover that our insurance company considers the GS a "high performance" bike, and it costs more to insure than our SV650!

3. Once you're ready to commit (after you've passed the MSF course and gotten your license), start investing in some good safety gear.  You'll need it anyway, and it demonstrates a commitment to safety that will be hard for your parents to argue with.

One final note: both my parents and my husband's parents still give us grief about bikes, and we're in our 40's!  Good luck.