x

Hopefully, many will read this.   No Child Left Behind is the worst thing to happen to education.  Basically, it's a beautifully wrappend package, but open it up and look inside and it's a pile of shaZam!.

No child left behind means exactly that...NO CHILD.  Profoundly mentally handicapped?  Learning disability?  Truant?  Doesn't matter.  ALL are expected to achieve at a base level.  In short, all students should achieve as though they are on a college track.  Really though, if a child can't even comprehend the use of a pencil, how can they use it to achieve?

NCLB relies on standardized tests.  In Indiana it's called the ISTEP test.  All students are expected to pass regardless of their actual ability levels.  In Indiana, in order to meet NCLB guidelines, schools must meet AYP expectations (adequate yearly progress).  In laymens terms, it means that ISTEP scores must improve a certain percentage every year.  Now eventually, mathematically, all schools will fail to meet AYP.  School funding and accreditation are tied to test scores.  Creativity by teachers is stymied in order to 'teach to the test'. 

Basically it works like this...the idea is that to get kids to achieve at a higher level, you raise academic standards and expectations.  The flaw there is that if you are a slow learner, you are expected to achieve at the same level.  I compare it to weight lifting:  If you can't lift an 80# bar, the government says you should try to lift a 100# bar instead.  It doesn't make sense.

Now, the best part in all of this is that NCLB is unfunded.  Schools are expected to meet these goals by tutoring, providing remediation, extra classwork, etc.  These programs require more teachers, more equipment and materials, and more, all of which cost money, though no money is provided.  That's why schools are cutting programs, extracurriculars, and 'non-essential' classes (music, foreign languages, arts, etc.) because those classes aren't on the tests.

No Child Left Behind sound great.  I mean, who wants their child left behind?  But once you get past the title, NCLB actually means that more children lose out, and only educators can actually see the problem.  Parents and the community think that we teachers are just whining due to the extra workload, but in actuality, we're upset because the kids lose out, and we take the blame.

NCLB sucks.  Aren't you glad you asked?

P.S.  Several states have filed suit against the government over NCLB because the guidelines set forth are not just unreasonable, they are impossible, not to mention unfunded.  NCLB is causing a stink.  Keep an eye on it...I don't think it will last, at least not in its current form.

Oh, and I highly doubt that our esteemed leader George dubya could pass the standardized tests that our 10th graders are expected to pass.
       

I'm also a teacher.  NCLB is window-dressing.  What do you expect from the party that alternately wants to eliminate the Dept of Education and then tell states what to do in education in infinite detail?

NCLB was designed from the outset to discredit public schools, which, in spite of public perception spurred by corporate media hype, do an amazing job with very limited funding.  That way the Grand Oil Party hopes to force school vouchers on the public, to allow tax money to be spent on religious schools.

If you want to be a teacher, do it.  It is a noble and rewarding profession, and the money is solidly middle-class and has benefits.  Even in Oklahoma (49th in teacher pay) you'd start in the low 30s.  Not great, but not terrible.  If you love people and you love the subject you want to teach, you should go for it.  You'll never have to worry about having a job -- there is a coming shortage of teachers.

NCLB is just the latest chapter in education "reform."  There will be many more, and teachers will still do their best to teach children in adverse conditions.   They always have and always will.

Now I think education is by far the most important investment we can make towards our future.  I've heard bad things about NCLB from various people in the education world, but I really know very little about it, and frankly don't take the advice from people in the happy world of academia seriously.

The big problem we have with education around here are the teacher unions.  Teachers here can make ~$80k a year and get some of the best pensions known to man.  A friend of the family was a permanent substitute and retired at the age of 55 worth over $1 mil.  Regardless, they still go on strike every few years demanding more money, doing nothing more than screwing the students out their education and tax payers out of even more money. 

My other problem with the unions is tenor.  I've had so many crappy crappy teachers in my day, but they were all protected and weren't expected to perform.  I don't think this is right and is something that only happens in the academic world.  If this were a corporate environment and you didn't perform, your ass would be out on the street. 

Say my boss gave me a project to do and said it has to meet this level by this day.  Now he doesn't give 2 craps if the project has a learning disability and will require me to bust my ass 12 hours a day 7 days a week to get it done because I am paid to do the job and am EXPECTED to put in however much effort is needed.   

Personally I think the same mentality should be put on education; you meet expectations you get a raise, you don't meet expectation we watch you, you continue not to meet expectations you're canned.  It will make education a lot more competitive thus more efficient meaning better education for the same amount of money.  This is how the real world works and maybe that's what NCLB is trying to get at.

I have memories as a kid asking a teacher for help with something, and he refused because they were still under contract negotiations.  I remember not having class in high school because teachers were picketing out in front of the school.  I guess it bothers me because teachers are always put on this pedestal as being good and honorable, but I see them as being in it for the money just like everyone else.

Sorry for the rant....

I have issues with public education to begin with...let me tell you that the teachers in my HS were making 50k+ a year with benefits including 401ks and most of them were worthless. I mean STUPID. Id ask questions..they couldnt answer them...they had little or no training on what they were teaching and they taught to the tests. I went to Yale and I was completely lost. Clearly most of the kids at Yale went to prep schools and were prepared for that type of college but there was no reason I wasn't prepared for some basic things. Some of those kids however lived in ritzy suburbs that have some of the best public schools in the country. Now you mean to tell me that those low income students who don't have those opportunities are dumber than the ones who went to better schools? No way. My HS spent some of the lowest amounts per student in my state...now you tell me how they can do that paying teachers 50k+ a year...they cut everything they possibly could..it was pathetic...I really wish we had a better education system..but NCLB is a really stupid concept...

Quote from: oramac on September 09, 2006, 07:40:44 PM
No Child Left Behind is the worst thing to happen to education.  Basically, it's a beautifully wrappend package, but open it up and look inside and it's a pile of shaZam!.

No child left behind means exactly that...NO CHILD.  Profoundly mentally handicapped?  Learning disability?  Truant?  Doesn't matter.  ALL are expected to achieve at a base level.  In short, all students should achieve as though they are on a college track.  Really though, if a child can't even comprehend the use of a pencil, how can they use it to achieve?

NCLB relies on standardized tests.  In Indiana it's called the ISTEP test.  All students are expected to pass regardless of their actual ability levels.  In Indiana, in order to meet NCLB guidelines, schools must meet AYP expectations (adequate yearly progress).

I agree.  I see it in my daughters elementary school.  The system has done some redistricting with a program called PLAN Z.  Kids are bused from their school boundary to another sometimes spending 45 minutes or longer on a bus.  It seemed  that the school system was jockeying kids around to help with the AYP percentages.  (Just my thoughts).  But it hasn't helped in any of the schools in the district.

My daughter tells me all the time how many kids are absent from school and don't do homework.   It's not always the teachers fault, PARENTS NEED TO BE INVOLVED ALSO.
I believe alot of the parents just don't care (lots aren't even home) or are not educated themselves.  Its sad. 

I just looked up our school after reading this thread and it scares me.  It is for the 3rd and 4th grade ISTEP results.  http://mustang.doe.state.in.us/AP/aypbutton.cfm?schl=7573&year=2005.

I guess we have some decisions to be made quickly about our daughters future education.

Quote from: LimaXray on September 10, 2006, 05:33:02 AM
Personally I think the same mentality should be put on education; you meet expectations you get a raise, you don't meet expectation we watch you, you continue not to meet expectations you're canned.  It will make education a lot more competitive thus more efficient meaning better education for the same amount of money.  This is how the real world works and maybe that's what NCLB is trying to get at.

The only problem with this kind of (non)thinking is that a teacher's success is largely dependent upon others.  Students do not all arrive at school ready or able to learn.  Many have parents who do not care at all.  Administrators often are untrained and don't care about much other than keeping problems out of their office.  Legislators do not fund education as it should be funded.  Teachers teach in facilities that are poorly maintained and ofetn poorly designed.  Taxpayers spout the importance of education but don't want to pay for it.  Schools are NOT businesses and they cannot be operated that way.  Most business people would last less than a week in the classroom.  They have no idea how hard teachers work.

I read a great quote yesterday.  Something to the effect that schools should be built and maintained better than banks because there is more wealth there.  All the banks in my town are certainly nicer and better maintained than all the schools.  Why is it that teachers are supposed to accept non-professional pay without complaining or striking?  Why do you think that so many low quality teachers are in the profession?  If education is important, PAY teachers well.  You'll have better teachers entering and staying in the profession. 

In my part of the world, teachers cannot strike.  They don't make anywhere near 80K or 50K, unless they are a successful football coach.  By and large they are a dedicated group of professionals.  Their work is made harder by the Rush Limbaughs of the world who carp about teacher unions but have no real knowledge or sense.

Quote from: LimaXray on September 10, 2006, 05:33:02 AM

Now I think education is by far the most important investment we can make towards our future.  I've heard bad things about NCLB from various people in the education world, but I really know very little about it, and frankly don't take the advice from people in the happy world of academia seriously.

Well, who WOULD you take advice about schools from?  George W. Bush?  Sean Hannity?  Bill O' Reilly?

So, you admit that you know little about it, but you "frankly" don't take advice from people who work in the field.

Whatever....

Personally, I'd listen to the people who teach kids every day.  But that's just me.

x

Nah, see I take my opinion on education from myself being a student, as in the person being taught by the teachers.  Isn't that what this is all about, the students?  I'm just talking about what I see from my perspective and what I see as being wrong with education.  I will not take my views from someone like the President who knows nothing about education, nor from the teachers who have a clear conflict of interest, so I will come up with my opinions.

But don't get me wrong, I really have no opinion on NCLB because like I said I know nothing about it.  My gf is working to become a teacher and she tells me how much it sucks, and as we all know the woman is always right, sooo... 

My point is can you honestly tell me you believe it is best for the students that there is no accountability for our teachers?  That's all I'm asking, but I guess asking anyone to be accountable for themselves isn't the good Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Micheal Moore thing to do now is it?  See all I hear from the teachers is blaming everyone else on the planet, and never saying 'well maybe I can do something better.' 

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/landing.jhtml 

Quote from: LimaXray on September 10, 2006, 12:54:30 PM
My point is can you honestly tell me you believe it is best for the students that there is no accountability for our teachers?  That's all I'm asking, but I guess asking anyone to be accountable for themselves isn't the good Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Micheal Moore thing to do now is it?  See all I hear from the teachers is blaming everyone else on the planet, and never saying 'well maybe I can do something better.' 

Where did you get the idea that there is no accountability for teachers?  Every teacher is evaluated by administrators every year.  Bad teachers are indeed fired (too rarely in my opinion, because there is a shortage of administrators with balls).  Every teacher is accountable to parents who can call the principal, school board, whoever.  It's just that the NCLB version of accountability relies on standardized tests (read: mostly multiple choice).  How well can you measure creativity and problem-solving using a multiple choice test?

The teachers that I know do try to do something better all the time.  They attend workshops in the summer and during the year, very often on their own dime.  They network with other teachers and try their best to reach every student.

The problem with measuring student achievement with a simple test and using that for "teacher accountability" is obvious.  The teacher in a well-funded district with adequate materials and a safe environment and parents who care will do well.  The teacher in a poorly funded district without adequate materials, teaching kids who have parents who couldn't care less about school will do poorly.  A sensible solution would be to FUND schools (all of them) well, to educate parents as well as students, and to find better ways to measure success than multiple choice exams.

But that wouldn't allow people like Neil Bush to make millions in educational testing.

I can never recall Michael Moore suggesting people should not be accountable for themselves.  You must not have watched his movies.  His "sin" is that he expects accountability from conservatives.  Bill Clinton accomplished more in two weeks than Bush has in six years.  You can have Ted Kennedy   

Lima, forgive me for being blunt, but your replies are making me angry due to the ignorance that a GREAT MANY people have.

First, I've been teaching for eight years.  I make $39,000.  I went to college for five years.  I am a teacher, which is a white collar job...the lowest paying white collar job out there.  I have to take classes and get at least 6 credit hours every five years to maintain my license.  I pay for those credit hours out of my pocket.  I buy materials for my class: music, tuners, and other equipment.  I go to school at 7:30 AM.  I leave no earlier than 4:30 PM (my contract day is 8:00 - 3:15, but there's no way I could do my job well in that amount of time).  I give lessons before and after school for free to students based on their time, not mine.  I hold at least eight concerts each school year (outside of my contract time).  I take kids to contest six out of twelve weekends in the spring.  I have taken my kids on spring break trips to various locations six of the last eight years, giving up my vacation time for the benefit of the students (not to mention the time spent planning, reserving, arranging transportation, housing, food, contest fees, and extra after school rehearsals).  I volunteer my time in the summer for at least three weeks (don't forget about those classes that I have to take in the summer to keep my job).  That leaves me around a month of the two-and-a-half that we get (Five weeks of vacation a year is less than most white collar workers...on average, they get eight, just not at one time).

I get PAID for classroom teaching.  Everything else I do is unfunded, but I choose to do it for my students.  NCLB involves unfunded requirements that I'm supposed to do during my school day IN ADDITION to my normal activities.  It doesn't make me a better teacher, it hinders me.

Lima, your comments are ignorant, and are shared by far too many ignorant individuals.  You compare education to a business.  The problem is that I don't make one product, because each child is individual.  Instead, I make about 120 products, each one different because they are different kids.  NCLB, says I should take all those different minds, and make them the same.  It's impossible.  If you don't know what you're talking about, don't comment .

P.S.  Tell me where I can get a job teaching making $80,000 a year, and getting a $1,000,000 retirement.  I want to live in that utopia.  My retirement (and all of Indiana) is based on my own contributions which are matched (up to a certain point) by the school corporation.  My pay and retirement options are no better as a teacher than they were when I worked as a furniture mover.  In fact, I make less because I got payed for the overtime I worked moving furniture.  If you know someone that retired with a mil in the bank, then that guy is a god, and you are an idiot.

No wonder George dubya was re-elected... never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

Quote from: oramac on September 09, 2006, 07:40:44 PM
No child left behind means exactly that...NO CHILD.  Profoundly mentally handicapped?  Learning disability?  Truant?  Doesn't matter.  ALL are expected to achieve at a base level.  In short, all students should achieve as though they are on a college track.  Really though, if a child can't even comprehend the use of a pencil, how can they use it to achieve?

I think this illustrates one of the biggest problems in our school system.  People want to believe that every child (especially their child) is a genius just waiting to be tapped.  They can't comprehend that maybe, just maybe, one of those precious little gems might grow up to be a Wal-Mart cashier, truck driver, or a janitor. 

I'm sorry, but half the kids in the public school system have below-average intelligence, and someone with average intelligence isn't all that smart.  Most of those below-average children aren't going to graduate from college. Most of them are going to be ringing up your gas and your groceries, or cleaning up after you when you take a piss and miss.  These kids should not be put into the same Algebra 2 class as the ones who could be engineers or scientists.  It's not fair to either of them, but it's exactly what happens in many school, because they only have one Algebra 2 class.  It's not fair to either group because when you teach so that the less intelligent students can understand, the more intelligent students are bored and become disenchanted with subject you're teaching and/or the educational system in general, and if you teach to the smarter students, the rest can't keep up and don't learn anything.

If we want to keep up with other countries who surpass us in education, then we need to see what we're doing wrong and what they're doing right.  Some opinions:

1.  Education should be competitive.  Once kids have completed grade school, they should be separated by skill level.  Personally, I think there should be 3 general types of schools for grades 6-8: One for those kids in the "fat part" of the bell curve, and one for the outliers on each side.  The outliers are both "special needs" and should be treated as such.  The overachievers need to be challenged, and the underacheivers need to have more individual attention so that they can overcome any disabilities they might have such as dyslexia, ADHD, etc. so that they can exercise whatever skills they have to their fullest, whatever they are.  High school should be further broken up so that kids can focus on what they excel at or enjoy the most but not at the expense of a well-rounded education. 

2.  Students who are taught to take a test well will not learn anything but how to take a test well.  This is a problem everywhere.  An extreme example of good test-takers are foreign graduate students who make a perfect 1600 on the GRE but can't communicate in Engilsh.  I only made a 640 on the verbal section of the GRE, but I'm the one who proofreads the papers of the guys who made an 800.  They learned how to take the test, not the underlying material.  It works the same way in schools.  Standardized tests only work as an indicator of progress if the students aren't taught to the test. 

3.  Teachers must be paid a competitive salary.  It needs to be enough so that those who are talented enough to do anything but are inclined to teach will see teaching as a viable alternative.  However, it shouldn't be so much that those who are disinclined to teach will do so just for the money.  Right now, most teachers are those who truly love the profession, or don't have the skills to do anything else.  We need more of the former so that we can get rid of the latter.  Schools shouldn't be so hard up for teachers that they will hire anyone with a pulse and a degree. 

I'm not going to get into the politics surrounding NCLB, but let me just say that leaving accounting to get my Master's in Teaching is the best decision I have ever made.