Just wondering....if you really put US violent crime statistics, like murder, under a microscope, it just might reveal that a significant number of these murders are being committed by illegal immigrants...and if that's true, then maybe credit should revert to the perps individual countries of origin, which would lessen the impact on the US murder rate.  
Wow, overnight we'd all be statistically a lot safer!!

edited. Decided I had said enough on the subject.

ABANDON THREAD!

Yep, I screwed up again, it was 13th in 2001. The Canadian economy has actually been growing very nicely in the last two years, despite the shrinking US economy.

If California's economy is larger than Canada's, which is quite possible, the rest of the US economy must suck. It would only take another 9 states like California to make up the rest of the US GDP. What are the other 38 doing?

Where the hell did the USA vs Canada arguments come from?  That's retarded.  Moore was trying to get people to ask why Canada has so many fewer murders than America when their number of guns per capita are about the same.  He was not trying to say Canada is better than America.  Though he would probably pee himself if he knew he could actually incite this much emotion on that topic, because let's face it, it's good for business.

He's also not against the right to bear arms.  He's a member of the NRA.  For real.  In fact, that was the other important message he was trying to push through with the whole Canada thing.  They have guns and don't kill each other, so obviously outlawing guns isn't the only answer.

He did manage to do a good job making fun of a few fanatical inbred rednecks though.  I couldn't find any intelligent reason for that other than increase the value of his movie in the eyes of left wingers, since they're the only ones that will buy the movie anyway.  In fact, I'd wager that most right-wingers that trash the movie have never watched it.

Anyway, I think the most important message that came from the movie was the part about Fear propoganda in the US.  It really is true that people everywhere in this country are paranoid.  Most of the people I know won't even go to certain restaurants because they're in a sketchy part of town (usually an area with a high concentration of racial minorities).  Our country is pathetic when it comes to how freaking paranoid we are.  We live in probably the safest country in the world when you add everything together, yet people are scared of their own shadows.

What most people do not realize is that most murders in the US are comitted by drug dealers/users.  It's not like John Doe just flips a coin in the morning and says "Tails...looks like I will shoot someone at random today".  There are some loonies that shoot former co-workers (USPS employees and such), but the vast majority of murders in large cities are drug related.  And most of the murders in the US are in or near large cities.  These are also the same people that would not give up their guns of they were made illegal.

By the way, my brother-in-law bought a Glock 10mm with an extra magazine and a padded hard-side case for $850 after tax.  A box of 50 cartridges was included in that price.

isn't $850 a little steep for a glock?  I know 10mm is a high energy chambering, but I recently picked up a Glock32C - .357 sig (also a high-powered round) compensated for $580 and the second magazine is a standard feature with glocks.  At least where I come fron, a high capacity mag might go for $100 to 200, but not a 10rd.

There is a point to inexpensive weapons, and that is that the second amendment protects the right of ALL americans to own firearms... not just the rich.  Outlawing all but the most expensive and difficult to find weapons would be unconstitutional because it would apply the second amendment only to those with wealth.  There is precedent here... Saturday Night Specials are the most prominent example.

"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

That's about all this card-carrying NRA member (and registered voter) has to say about that.

peace

I will try to make this my last post on this thread. Just some thoughts inspired by scanning the 5 pages of posts:
The U.S. Air National Guard doesn't train morons to fly fighter jets. W's college entrance scores were higher than Algore's - who failed to pass his BAR exam.
It may have been stated already, I'm not sure since I don't have enough attention span to read every word of every post but, the second amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting ducks or target shooting. What business is it of my Government, or anybody else for that matter, what type of gun I choose to own? If I am a law abiding citizen of the U.S.A., I am supposed to be free to protect myself, my family and my property. So many of the violent death stats, et al are skewed because they include instances of a home owner shooting an intruder. These cases are much more prevalent than cases of an accidental shooting of the neighbor kid or what have you. They just don't make as good of news.

OK, one more. But, really it's still the previous one. I just forgot to mention something. I know this was just quoted from Colin What'sHisName from that US comedy show but, actually, we DID elect Bush. Whether he won the "popular vote" or not, he got more Electoral votes which is the way we've been, (or beeen if you're Canadian - sorry, cheap shot), electing our Presidents down here for quite some time. If Algore could've just won HIS OWN state of Tennessee and his former boss's state of Arkansas, Florida would've been moot.

Delta88 the thing is, it should be stated what kind of guns you can and cannot use.  we already can't buy fully auto assault rifles, why not raise hell over that?  for some reason americans think the constitution is the greatest piece of governmental literature ever written.  jesus christ, it's almost 230 years old.  what other country has been following the same documents for government as long as us?  the script is outdated, the wording is confusing and open to too much debate.  we really need to get a new document.

Quote from: KevinCYep, I screwed up again, it was 13th in 2001. The Canadian economy has actually been growing very nicely in the last two years, despite the shrinking US economy.

If California's economy is larger than Canada's, which is quite possible, the rest of the US economy must suck. It would only take another 9 states like California to make up the rest of the US GDP. What are the other 38 doing?

Well California even with the total economic bust has enough clout to be the 5th in the world. It used to be 4th in 00 and 01 when the boom was on. Canada posted 3% in the last 2 years, Many other countries in that list (India, China etc and more have posted much more...double digit or near that) I believe Canada may have improved but I dont think it made much headway in ranking on the other 3rd world countries on that list. Now California has 30 million population...It only takes 9 times that population to make up the population of the US...Coincidence...So I guess 9 California's will make the US, and the other 38 states are doing right about average...(Nelson Muntz doing ... ha ha...).
That makes the spot light on CA rather cruel...if it goes belly up it will probably take down much of the worlds economy with it...but that is true for any 30 million strong high productivity economy... So I guess they will elect Aaaaa .. hnold and he'll terminate the problem...
Cool.
Srinath.

Quotefor some reason americans think the constitution is the greatest piece of governmental literature ever written. jesus christ, it's almost 230 years old. what other country has been following the same documents for government as long as us? the script is outdated, the wording is confusing and open to too much debate. we really need to get a new document.

The reason America (and its constitution) has thrived for the past 230 years is because the constitution IS one of the greatest documents ever written!!!  It provides a mechanism by which the people (not the politicians) can update it.  The constitution can be expanded, edited, or even DELETED by amendments (21 repealed 18 ).  The US constitution, as amended, is ONLY 32 YEARS OLD!!! (26th amendment in 1971).

In political policy, as in life... evolve or die.  Thank God America chose to evolve.

peace

Yep, which brings me back to where I started: the  most successful economy in the world, with the highest homicide rate of any of the G7 countires by somehwere close to an order of magnitude, the higest income disparity (and GS listers are probably mostly on the wrong side of that) (the lower 10% of the US population earns 1.8% of the income), the highest infant mortality rate of the G7 nations, and the largest % of the population with substandard medical coverage with the worlds most expensive per capita health care system.

The statistics used to indicate that the violent crime rate in the US is anywhere near the reat of the world (International Victims Survey) were based on the survey of 1000 people in the US and 20,000 in other countires, and included bicycle theft!

I've spent way too much time in California, and if that is the best of the US, you are welcome to it. I seem to remember you complaining about it also Srinath?

The homicide rate in Washington was 69.3 per 100,000 in '98, while Ottawa, the Canadian capital was at 1.6.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/153988.stm

The second or third leading causes of death for the ages 4 to 15 in the US is homicide. Wow.

I prtefer the Canadian compromise of a somewhat kinder, gentler nation at the expense of some economic perfomance perhaps, but more time to enjoy life. You know the French, and actually everyone in the world except the Japanese, have way more holidays then Americans? I think I know who is enjoying life more...

Some good sites:

http://lynx.let.hokudai.ac.jp/COE21/presentation/1stcefom21/Daly&Wilson.pdf
http://www.drugwardistortions.org/distortion13.htm
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb502.pdf

I'm done.

I have to go with Kevin C on the holiday issue.

I haven't read it, but "The Overworked American" by Juliet Schor is on my list.  Has anybody gotten into this book?  As I understand it, its primarily composed of statistical arguments (of which I am not fond - statistics are EXTREMELY maleable and can be bent to one's own end easily - this line is proof of that    ).  Still, I believe in the basic premise of the book.  Americans (myself included) need to chill out more and enjoy life... perhaps on the back of a GS500?  

Christ allmighty! KevinC.... Did you get kicked off of the Debate Team in school and decide to make up for it in this thread??

Fine! Canada is better than the US in virtually all ways conceivable! Canadians have superior intellect, skills, morals and a model society for all nations to behold!

There I said it! Are you happy now?? Now end this ridiculous thread!


All hail Canada!!!! America cowers to your might!

Guess that means we won!  

Just kidding  

Actually, Zarathustra, I DO have a problem with my not being allowed to own a fully automatic weapon, (legally, that is). If I have broken NO laws, what business is it of Big Brother's to dictate what I can and cannot own. Whether it's my firearm(s) of choice or the kind of car I CHOOSE to drive. It's still supposed to be governmaet OF the people, FOR the people, and BY the people. They work for US, not the other way around. It only seems that way most of the time. And as for the Constitution being outdated, I think it shows the tremendous foresight of our founding fathers that it's NOT outdated at all. It's a Socialist, Left Wing viewpoint that the Constitution and Bill of Rights are living, breathing documents" that can be bent and shaped to suit the current trends. To the contrary, like the Holy Bible, these documents are valuable precisely because they are NOT bendable or liquid. They say what they say for a reason and the Federal Gov't has way overstepped the powers granted to it by them.
 
 The answer to gun crime isn't more laws or dividing weapons into classes and only banning the ones that sound most dangerous. The answer would be to enforce the laws already on the books. Those two scumbags who shot up Columbine H.S. already had broken more than a dozen weapons laws. What difference would one or two more have made? Criminals, you know, the ones who commint the crimes, break laws for a living. Making it harder for law abiding citizens to have access to the firearm(s) they need/want doesn't do squat for crime except, maybe, increasing its likelyhood. Putting a criminal behind bars or removing him/her from the genepool entirely at least ensures that that one person isn't out committing more crimes. An armed citizenry has also been instrumental in reducing crime. It's just that the Left Wing Liberal elites don't want us common folk to be armed because we cannot be trusted. Remeber the flap about Diane Fienstien(sp)? She's a big Liberal California Politician who has voted time and time again to erode our 2nd amendment freedoms and yet she carries a concealed weapon. How about Rosie O'Donnel? She gets Tom Selleck on her show under false pretenses and then proceeds to rip him a new one because he's an NRA member. But guess what, she has a paid, armed body guard for her adopted kids. So, because she can afford professional protection and Di Fi has clout to get a nearly impossible CCW in the People's Republic of California, they deserve to play by a different set of rules than the rest of us? I think not.

 Now, does anybody know where I can get a rifle scabboard for a GS500? :guns:

bump.