Quote from: Larry on September 27, 2006, 06:37:03 PM
I own both an ABS and non-ABS bike.  On the BMW I actuated it once in the rain on a hidden manhole lid while stopping. ABS kept the front wheel from locking up, and may have saved me from going down.  On the GS I locked up the rear wheel once during an emergency stop, had to stay on the brake and fight to stay up to avoid a high-side. ABS would have helped in that situation also.

In brief, I think that ABS is a great system on the street and especially in the rain.  Since my riding is 100% street (no off road or track) it fits my riding style and skills.  Sure it's more expensive, but so is going down.  Been there, done that, don't ever want to go back.

Does ABS on bikes come on both wheels or only front? Specialy on sv650.

Also i think ABS is like insurance. Sure it is not so good to pay every year and you might think you don't need it. But that one special day you will be very glad

So ABS is a $500 option that is rarely needed? Same thing could be said of helmets. As far as I know it will come on both front and rear brakes, but as long as it's on the front I'll be content. It's a lot easier to keep the rear brake pedal pressed in case of a lock up than modulate the front brake accordingly.

Quote from: werase643 on September 27, 2006, 05:20:19 PM
..... um
no more stoppies.....

Definitely not. The only time I managed to lift the rear wheel off the ground on a motorcycle is when I made test brakings on an ABS equippde F650.

And, boy, did that thing brake brutally on dry pavement. I know that I'd never have dared to clam the calipers this tight without it.

Quote from: WAP on September 28, 2006, 07:19:19 AM
So ABS is a $500 option that is rarely needed? Same thing could be said of helmets. As far as I know it will come on both front and rear brakes, but as long as it's on the front I'll be content. It's a lot easier to keep the rear brake pedal pressed in case of a lock up than modulate the front brake accordingly.

It's good on rear too. You just press it and forget it. The ABS gets max stopping power of rear brake and prevents Mr.Highside and Mr. Lowside from visiting you in that bad moment.

Domas?
You have been taken in by the spiel. ABS does not give max stopping power. ABS prevents the wheels locking thats all......It does not allow you to brake safely in corners, you can loose traction and hi/low side without wheel-lock, and furthermore ABS does not reduce stopping distances, it prevents wheel-lock and skidding and gives you the chance to swerve to avoid the obstruction without loosing control, which in itself takes experience. In certain circumstances dependent on the road surface it can actually increase braking distance.
I can imagine a lot of unknowing and inexperienced newbies taking the option in the belief that it will make them a better rider and let them push themselves and their bikes to the limit without the risk of accident which is simply not true. If safety is your no1 concern forget the ABS and spend the 500 on some top class leathers and helmet.

Assuming that the cost of bleeding the brakes is not in the hundreds of dollar range, (as it is reportedly on some BMW models) I would give an ABS equipped bike serious consideration.

ABS strives to prevent wheel lockup. On a bike, wheel lockup is generally a bad thing.

Most of the test that I have seen on ABS equipped vehicles show that the braking distance difference between locked wheel panic braking and ABS equipped panic stops is small.  The two scenarios that show a discernable difference is braking on loose gravel or loose snow. In these cases locked wheel braking was more effective than ABS, most likely because of built up snow or gravel wedges in front of a locked tire.  I don't generally drive on loose snow so it isn't a factor for me.

As far as newbies go, I can see the ability to brake fully with both brakes, without fear of a lock-up, as a good thing.  As far as fooling new riders into pressing their luck, isn't the sale of all those liter bikes more of a risk? At least here in the US most of the thrill seeking, risk taking, new riders I know  went right to the GSXR 1000.

Mac is totally right on this one.  ABS does not maximize braking, it just helps prevent locking up the brakes.  It seems that the only people who want ABS on a bike are the same people who think they can make biking 'safe.'  ABS might keep you upright under extreme braking, but it can very possibly lengthen you actual stopping distances. 

Add in the fact that it adds complexity, weight, and expense to a bike, and I see no reason for it to be on any bike of mine.  Riding bikes isn't safe, and many of us ride for that reason.  Its a rush to feel the exeleration of speed and the unfiltered connection to the road.  Why isolate yourself from what attracted many of us in the first place?

Introduction of new technologies always go through this trial/acceptance period both from the manufacturers and the users.  the good ones, that work and are accessible stick around and the ones that aren't, come and go (this applies to bike technology and technology in general).  Manufacturers are challenged with effectiveness and manufacturing costs, while consumers are challenged with change.  age old story...

this at the same time that traction control is starting to be avaialbe on consumer bikes, will surley have some split camp opinions.


At the end of the day, only time will tell and we'll see in years to come, whether ABS stays or goes.

Someone explain to me how ABS will increase stopping distances.  It only activates upon the start of wheel slippage.  Therefore, properly performed threshold braking will not cause ABS to activate.  So, the question is do you think you're talented enough to perform perfect threshold braking on any surface at any time without warning?

The only circumstance I've ever heard of that ABS can increase stopping distance is in the snow - not a likely situation for most riders. 

I bet you anti-ABS guys think MotoGP riders would turn better lap times without traction control too eh?

jeff

Quote from: Jeff P on September 29, 2006, 06:22:02 AM
Someone explain to me how ABS will increase stopping distances.  It only activates upon the start of wheel slippage.  Therefore, properly performed threshold braking will not cause ABS to activate.

That's right.  If you assume ABS gives you magic brakes and just grab a fistful of brake every time, you will have worse stopping distances than properly modulating your braking force.  Thus if you are a godly-expert rider and brake perfectly you will never notice you are equipped with ABS.  Until the one time that you make a mistake, or there's oil.  Then it might save your life.

Quote from: Jeff P on September 29, 2006, 06:22:02 AM
Someone explain to me how ABS will increase stopping distances.  It only activates upon the start of wheel slippage.  Therefore, properly performed threshold braking will not cause ABS to activate.  So, the question is do you think you're talented enough to perform perfect threshold braking on any surface at any time without warning?

The only circumstance I've ever heard of that ABS can increase stopping distance is in the snow - not a likely situation for most riders. 

I bet you anti-ABS guys think MotoGP riders would turn better lap times without traction control too eh?

jeff

Contrary to what people, like Chuck here, will tell you, ABS does not "only activate with threshold braking".  ABS operates by wheel sensors.  When these sensors detect a noticeable difference in the rate of decelleration under braking conditions between the two wheels, it activates.  It will also activate if the controller deams you to be decellerating faster than it feels is acceptible...even if both wheels remain at constant proportional velocities.

This means that ABS can activate during fairly routine events...such as braking over a bump or seam in a bridge or normal braking while opposing gravity (uphill...had it happen with a vfr).  It's also the kind of thing that will activate on you when you switch into "oh shaZam! stop fast mode" because some kid/critter ran out in front of you while you're boogying at full lean...or "backing it in" a curve, even.  That's where ABS really shines through for bikes; in the curves.

...just thought of a good example.  Friend of mine was putting around on a police issue harley...they came with ABS, but the system had been removed from this bike (recall).  He pulled to hot into a curve and ended up lowsiding.  By the time he went down he was aimed far enough back into his lane that his just slid down it.  It wasn't a bad accident...he got bruised and his bike only suffered a couple scratches.  Instead of allowing the bike to lay over and lock up the wheels the ABS controller would have allowed him to brake safely...right into oncoming traffic, or straight across the 15ft shoulder and over a 50ft drop...but hey, he wouldn't have lowsided and scratched his bike up.  The problem is that the system is designed to forcibly apply textbook braking proceedure to every situation...unfortunately, the textbook proceedure isn't always the best option...like when propper braking would try and force the bike out of a lean, which would pull you into oncoming traffic or over a cliff.  Human error can put you in that predicament.  ABS can make it your last predicament just as easily as make it one of many.

The bottom line is that ABS may be able to prevent certain incidents, but while being the culprit behind others.  There's enough possiblillities of danger when riding as it is.  I'd prefer to not add to it.  When ever they make it a system that plugs into the back of our head so that it knows when and when not to activate according to your actual surroundings...then I'll dig it.

whats fundamental about ABS is that it prevents wheel-lock in a panic situation and allows you to keep control of the bike that in a skid you cant always do. It will NOT always stop the bike quicker than a non-ABS equiped bike. That factor depends on you as a rider, your experience and the road conditions. The system is not foolproof and has shortfalls as stated earlier. It can be confused by loose surfaces like snow sand and gravel, by quickly passing over surfaces offering different degrees of traction while in operation, by an oil/grease/diesel patch picked up on the tyre itself and if the wheel momentarily leaves the ground. When this happens ABS is worthless and its up to you to stop the bike. Manufactures may quote test results and all the bull***t but tests are done under repeatable and monitored conditions, not real world conditions. In addition to all that its just something else to go wrong. ABS bikes here in the UK will fail the annual MOT inspection if the system is fitted and not functioning and I have heard of bikes like early FJ12s being scrapped or the ABS being removed because the system is faulty and costs more to repair than the bike is actually worth. Not a problem if its new and under warranty but I cant see many people wanting the bike if its say 5 years old and 2nd or 3rdhand when the ABS is likely to fail leaving you with a huge bill because only the dealers know how to fix it and set it up and test it properly, 2ndhand values will take a tumble particularly if the system proves troublesome......anyone else remember the saga of the CX500 and the camchain tensioners???  Probably not as the average age in here is low. Nah I will stick to the leathers and lid thank you, I think they are better value, offer more in the way of protection, AND are transferable between bikes.

I've heard that one before.  "I had to lay the bike down to avoid an accident." 

Quote from: Chuck on September 29, 2006, 10:48:24 AM
I've heard that one before. "I had to lay the bike down to avoid an accident."

Yeah...just like how ABS is the same thing as extreme fidgeting...I mean holy shaZam! it's like you're trying to prove how big an ass you are.  You're a luck son of a Buddha Loves You for never having had to chose the lesser of two damaging paths in life.

hey hey I got an idea...I'll buy an ABS system so my bike can magically sprout wings fly my ass out of any hairy situation.

Getting a little riled up there.  You possibly need a valium or two.  I'm just trying to keep people safe.  The people who ask "Is ABS any good?" are the exact people who should have it.  The people who need their wheels to lock up so that they can purposefully lowside to avoid travelling in the direction their bike is pointing need to not have it.

Quote from: Jarrett on September 27, 2006, 05:03:45 PMplease set me straight if I'm worng.

you are wrong 

Chuck, do you have/want a headlight modulator on your bike?