http://youtube.com/watch?v=xZg-tANNSys

thats a good video. very eye opening.  my opinion is cager suck

She has a terrible speaking voice. She's trying to speak slowly, but ends up coming off like she thinks she's talking to a idiots. Nice video though, it would be cool to see the next part and see what her conclusions are.

there was only 2 references to where/how the data was collect....not good enough for a university paper let alone to take as fact

Where can I find Dangerous Designs, Part 2.  Currious viewers want to know how the story ends... 

from what I know, DD pt 2 is still in the making.... it comes from a blog



http://moonrider.journalspace.com/




you can thank Hawkster... who occasionally visits this board.... for this though.... he provides me with an excellent source for knowledge about motorcycle safety...

Wow.  Spent about an hour getting a sense of MoonRider -- aka Wendy Moon.  She seems to be very anti-MSF, believing them to be a power-mad organization, bent on cornering the Motorcycle Training world (well, America at least). 

She pulls a lot of data out of a hat.  Agree with Frankie -- not sure the quality of the analysis is there.  The problem of greater fatalities is rather vexing.  Personally I believe it is not one factor but a series of them.

I've done some reading of the research in Michigan.  What I offer below is primarily from a recent study, "Motorcycle Crash Trends in Michigan, 2001-2005"

My Readers Digest summary:

• The ridership is getting older.  Between 1997 and 2005 the largest rider group went from 30-44 (47.1 to 28.8%) to the next older group 45-64 (40.2 to 56.8%).  The 65+ crowd moved from 4.3% to 7.6% in the same time period.  In 2005, only 6.8% of licensed motorcyclists were under 30.  Men and Women motorcyclists are equally represented by age.  Women are roughly 10% of the ridership.
  
• In 2004, some 39% of those who have accidents do not have Motorcycle endorsements, suggesting no formal training or skills testing.  This is actually down some from 2001 when it was 43%.
  
• Another fact affecting the above point is that between 2001 & 2004 there have been a 32% increase in motorcycle registrations, but only a 9% increase in motorcycle endorsements.  Suggests that there are more multi-bike garages out there, or more unlicensed riders.  I suspect the latter.
  
• Not surprisingly for a largely recreational sport, most accidents during the week happen between Friday & Sunday.
  
• Time of day is a factor, as accidents occur more frequently in the afternoon, peaking by 6:00pm.  One quarter of all accidents happen between 3:00pm and 6:00pm, and nearly half occur between 3:00pm and 9:00pm.  Your best chance to avoid an accident seems to be between sun-up and mid-afternoon.
  
• In 2005, most accidents (93.8%) occurred on Dry Pavement, then Wet (3.8%), then Debris (1.1%).  It was generally Clear sky (78.8%) rather than Cloudy (18.2%).  It was overwhelmingly Daylight (71.3%) rather than Dark (23%) [lighted (10.5%) & unlighted (12%)].
  
• There were equal percentages of single versus multi-vehicle accidents (~51:49).  Multi-vehicle were usually with a car (64-67%) and less likely with a truck (22-25%).
  
• In determining the causes of single-vehicle accidents, those that are known (~50%) site Speed too Fast as the largest reason (11-15%), followed by "Failing to maintain a Clear Distance" at 7-9%, with Careless/negligent or Reckless driving amounting to 6-10%.
  
• Although Michigan Law requires helmet use, almost 4% of accident victims were not wearing.  Severity of injury was statistically greater for non-Helmet victims.
  
  

What do you do to have the best chance at staying alive? 

• Wear good gear,
  
• keep your eyes open and your mind focused on what you're doing,
  
• Get off the roads by mid-afternoon,
  
• Watch out for the other guy, especially at intersections and other places other vehicles gather.
  

Regardless of the underlying causes, be careful.  It's a jungle out there...

I agree with MSF being bent on taking over the training world...but it's because no one cares.  I never took MSF because of how much they think it's worth.  I just can't justify $300 for the $4 insurance break it'll get me...

in my ever so humble opinion... the MSF is NEAR pointless.... some of what they teach can be applied to safely operating a motorcycle, but I don't believe its anywhere near good enough for getting people on the road.

i can say that the only real benefit to MSF I've ever personally witnessed is that they taught my brother how to handle an emergency while turning...and their guidance saved his life not two months later (stay off the brake, lean don't be afraid to lean more into it, etc).  Some kid blew by him on a mountain road with a 70 ft cliff off one side and he went wide trying to avoid said 'kid'.  Ground the pillion pegs and exhaust on his new Sportster pretty good haha.  But Bobby went up to them and specifically asked to be taught how to handle the situation...otherwise they'd have never really covered it.

Outside of that they're only good for people who've never touched a bike and have no one to show them the ropes.  I've heard that some places you can take the course for like $50...I'd do it then just for the insurance break and to throw around a little 125 for a couple days.

Crappy voice-over chick...     I'd rather read the info than listen to Mic pops...   



Oh and...  HOLY CRAP:  http://youtube.com/watch?v=iJU93Ontel4

   The guy in the car didn't stand a chance.    

Getting back to subject, the MSF program is intended to teach the novice rider the basic skills of how to "safely begin gaining experience on the street".  It's not a whole lot different to what cagers get from Drivers Ed. 

Evasive maneuvers and situational training is covered, but like everything, if you don't practice or otherwise remember, you aren't prepared when you need it.  Refresher range training is offered in the Experienced RiderCourse.  It's offered at the same price as the ERC, $25 here in Michigan.  And there are frequently no-shows at that price.

Mac, glad that your bro did the right thing to stay healthy.  There are a lot of michigan riders that are self-taught.  Hope that given the same situation they get it right the first time.   

I'm probably one of the few people that's taken both a private instruction course and the MSF BRC course in the process of becoming a rider.

In comparison, the MSF comes off looking very good. The private course I took was almost completely useless. Those who more-or-less knew how to ride going in came out with a little more parking lot experience and a much better idea of what to expect in the state rider's test. Those who couldn't ride going in, couldn't ride afterwards either.

I have mixed feelings about the MSF. On the one hand, many of the criticisms are valid, the training could certainly be better in many repsects (and more available), and they do seem to be increasingly intent on increasing profits and becoming a government-mandated monopoly. Students go in thinking that they'll come out ready to ride on the streets, and IMHO, the training is sadly inadequate for that- unless they have previous riding experience (and many do, either from riding legally or illegally on the streets, or riding on dirt) they are still in GREAT danger for that first one or two hundred miles on the actual streets.

On the other hand, it seems to be the best that we have. That's really too bad.

It seems to me that part of the problem is the rather primitive approach of mixed "yak-in-the-box" book-based classroom instruction, and just dumping beginners right onto motorcycles in a parking lot. Going into the 21st century, it seems clear to me that it's time for some wide-scale introduction of simulator technology, so that students can master the basic controls and concepts safely and without fear, and develop some of the reflexes needed to simply control the motorcycle before having to divide their concentration to cover all the other "situational awareness" required on a real motorcycle amongst other riders.

In the beginning the simulation doesn't have to be very advanced, ANY familiarity with the non-intuitive controls of a motorcycle would be an advantage before tossing the student into more complex situations. Once the concept of simulation training takes hold, of course, things will probably improve at a rapid pace, and more and more complex scenarios can be acted out int he simulator before they are encountered in real life. Someone who's been through hundreds of inexpensive, risk-free runs on a simulator may not have the advantage of "real world" experience, but they have a tremendous advantage over the beginner with neither- which is what we put out on the roads now.

We do this for jet pilots because the government is risking tens of millions of dollars on every one of them.. but the technology is getting steadily cheaper and more available, and the lives at risk on motorcycles are no less valuable. IMHO, we have the technology to save a lot of those lives, and it's time.

Quote from: RedShift on June 24, 2007, 07:46:21 PMWhat do you do to have the best chance at staying alive? 

• Wear good gear,
  
• keep your eyes open and your mind focused on what you're doing,
  
• Get off the roads by mid-afternoon,
  
• Watch out for the other guy, especially at intersections and other places other vehicles gather.
  

Regardless of the underlying causes, be careful.  It's a jungle out there...

Great post Red Shift... I do want to add what I think is the most important bullet point to your list:

• Everyone, STOP SPEEDING
  

Johnny, you did well to point that out.  I was clumping the whole idea of speed, outside-inside-outside path of travel and all the other good riding traits in the point:

Quote from: RedShift on June 24, 2007, 07:46:21 PM

...

• keep your eyes open and your mind focused on what you're doing,
  ...
  

If you're thinking on riding and playing the "What If" game, your're properly engaged in being safe.[/list]