I changed the magneto cover, tail light bulbs, etc,... One thing kept on coming into my mind. They must WANT things to break when your fixing them. Either that or it's just bad BAD engineering.  Twist out the bulb housing to replace the 1157 tailight bulb(as per official instructions)? Sure.. I tried. It wouldn't budge for anything. The rinkiy dink ground wire came off easily as it's flimsily soldered onto the housing. Soldered with nearly no solder! Never mind what I had to do to solve that since the housing is resistant to normal solder(just fallsright off when it cools). The screws that hold the guts of the alternator insider the magneto cover are tight as hell but they have to come out and be re-installed into the replacement cover(had a minor spill). Suzuki must have said "let's make these really really tight, and lets use soft as lead screws!" I stuck the philips head driver in there and they wouldn't budge. I apply some more pressure and the X in the head just carved right out of them. Unbelievable. I had to use needlenose vise grips to grasp the heads and twist them out. If you've got a GS500 get some visegrips.. you'll need them over and over again. BTW, every screw in there did the same thing. Ironically, because they were lead soft, the visegrips were able to dig in enough around the circular heads and get enough grip. Would it kill those morons to use some freaking steel instead of this alloy crap that they seem to LOVE to use in every important fastener? You name the task, it was Murphy's law all the way. I got so pissed I nealy kicked the bike over once... twice even. I worked as an auto mechanic for 10 years so I know what I'm doing when I use a screw driver. Procedures are a bit different for a particular bike but the overall corner cutting I saw made me sick. For all I know Honda and Yamaha do the same but I've worked on Honda cars and doubt they'd pull this nonsense. Ok, done with the rant.  :x

That's why the bike is so cheap. They don't build it to last, instead they use the cheapest parts possible.  
The engine is the bored up version of the GS450 (mid '70s), cheap suspension,  lots of parts that are used in other models, cheap bearings wich are open on 1 side (thus fail after only 20000 miles) or bearings with almost no grease on them (swingarm linkage bearings). Add a undercapacitated fuel system and  super-cheap lacquer for the bike wich can be removed with your fingernail, or falls of after a winter.

This way you end up with a bike that's cheap, rides really good in comparison to other bikes in its class but needs frequent attention once it's over 20000 miles.   (And it lasts only about 50000 miles).

Hondas are better designed, last longer, are much more reliable and are consequentially much more expensive.

I don't know if the buildquality of the bigger Suzuki's is also crap, but if I compare the build quality between my '93 GS and the Honda Nighthawk 650 of my dad wich is 10 years older than the GS, the Nighthawk is really superior to the GS.  

The difference can also be felt when servicing the bike. It doesn't need much service and when it needs service everything is much easier. You can pull the airfilter out without tearing the whole bike down for it and the oilfilter cover is tightened with one big bolt instead of 3 stupid little bolts wich snap after a few oil changes.


PS: I know the problem with the screws in the alternator cover.  They sometimes just won't loosen and are made of crappy soft steel or something. If the screwdriver slips just one time, the head of the screw is wasted.  :x

Welcome to the joys of budget bike ownership

Quote from: johnWelcome to the joys of budget bike ownership

heheh

Would you rather pay $7999 for a GS?

Not me. For that money I would buy a Diversion 900 or something, anyway, a heavy bike that's capable of high speed touring while being comfortable at the same time. (I make a lot of long trips, the GS doesn't like them and me neither, too uncomfortable).

Ok dont get me started on the nighthawk...
Cam chain tensioner... you should see that piece of crap, 1 you have to pull the valve cover and cam shafts to get at it, its got 1 tiny little spring pulling on the slipper unit, and it typically when it goes will drop that spring right into the motor. Also the starter clutch on the nighthawk, a $10 part needs the cases split to replace. In the early 80's all 4 jap bikes were better made and I believe the overall steel supply was better, It dropped in quality from ~85-90 and then picked back up again. BTW the bolts on the alternator... You are supposed to warm them with a soldering iron... cos they have loctite on them. My vulcan was the same way...BTW to remove the alternator in the vulcan you need to get the motor out of the frame. The shifter shaft on the vulcan has this nastu habit of disappearing into the motor, and its regulator was either burned up in heat or eaten up by battery acid in 5K miles.
Yamaha... My brothers FJ600 84... had that center bolt though the oil filter seized up so bad... we had to cut through it and grind it off to take off the hatch. The Virago 535 I own has the regulator fitted to the muffler collector... the eliminator 1000 is a misery in the rain cos it collects water on top of the valve cover (cam chain on the left and bike leans left so its like the great lakes there) and water gets into the spark plug holes... and when the bike gets hot.. the plug caps pop off. BTW all manufactirers have 1 side shield bearings in the wheels. In effect huge design flaws are not there in a GS, some cheap fasteners and perishables... I'd put up with it. All manufacturers higher end bikes are probably better. But I believe they are all comparable to each other... Like ZX/s and GSXR's and CBR's and YZF's are all equal... and the EX500 is worse than the GS.
Cool.
Srinath.

A design flaw of the GS would be the fuel system, if you scroll through the forum, something like 20 % of the problems come from that system.

I didn't mean that a Nighthawk has no flaws at all, the tensioner is a (pretty big) design flaw in that bike. But the general build quality is better.

I'm used to the build quality of cars.... apparently you can't compare that to the quality of a GS.  You can drive a car for thousands of miles before something breaks or needs replacing.

With the GS There's only a few weeks between replacing worn out or broken parts.
Like a turn signal. in a car you screw in a new bulb... with the GS be careful, after some years the plastic of the orange lens has become brittle! gently screw out the 3 screws that hold the lens..... oops! looks like we can buy a new turn signal! why? because the fitting of the bulb and everything else that's metal inside the turn signal has rotted away!!  :x

I hate that!!  :x  :x ...... happened on holiday in France..... bought duct-tape in local hardware store.... duct-taped the wires directly onto the new bulb, worked well for a few months(!) until I replaced them with new turn signals.


In the more sunny and dry areas of the world this probably won't happen. But there's also a large part of the world that's WET!!  In Holland there's 123 days in a year when it DOESN'T rain. This means that the majority of the days, it WILL rain.
And Holland isn't the worst. The United Kingdom is MUCH worse. A lot more rain than in Holland and the winters are even nicer for the bike. in Holland it takes 2 winters before a GS-exhaust has rotted away, in the UK it's gone after only 1 winter!!!  After 2 winters the frame will also look very bad.

Would you buy a car that rots away in only a couple of years??  Of course not! Why can't they make the bikes as durable as a car??  

[/u]

Its not really build quality or honda at all...
I have a 83 nitehawk with 38K that has minimal rust. I also have a 85 with 10K that is literally head to toe rusted. The world's steel supply quality dropped from 85-90 or so. My 83 kawi... no rust, my 85-87 bad rust. My 89 GS tons of rust, my 91... almost none but that's not a fair comparison my 89 was outside all the time and has 41K, and the 91 has 7K miles... But in general 85-90 bikes rusted easy.
Cool.
Srinath.

Something I have notice srinath is on my 91 there is almost no rust at all, as everyone can see from the pick in the Hall of Fame.  And the bike sat for quite awhile outside since I purchase it from a Junkyard.  It probly wasn't covered up until I owned it.  The bike has 17000 miles on it and the only thing I found that was rusted was the chain, front sprocket, and where the triple tree was on the forks.  Maybe the paint they used in those years on the frame was substandard and wore off quicker allowing the frame to rust? Don't really know, just a hypothetical guess.

Interesting point about the rust, because I have a '93 wich rusts, but not as bad and agressively as some older GS's. The older ones often have that bright red rust wich eats through everything really fast.  The '83 Nighthawk also barely rusts despite the fact that my dad rides to work with it everyday regardless of the weather. And when at work, it stands outside all day long.
So your theory seems to hold up pretty well.

BTW, Srinath, did that tensioner spring of the Nighthawk fall into the engine when the engine was running?? That would've been fun.
The tensioner in the Nighthawk of my dad needs to be replaced soon because especially when cold it has a deathrattle from the camchain between 2000-3500 rpm. Slowly it creeps up to 4000 rpm.

No that tensioner did not... But it stretched open when I was trying to replace it on my first n'hawk and when I took it back out.. it didn't contract back fully... . The new one I got was ridiculously tight for being such a tiny spring... Looked like it would break trying to put it in. That and the stupid clips that hold the pins on the slippers... hate the damn things. Besides on a nitehawks carbs...If you every let the bike sit for say a year... the O-rings between the crabs will dry up and leak... like a gusher. The GS can take years of sitting easy. The cure is to put the petcock in prime for a few mins every month or so... and let the gas into the crabs and have the o-rings always stay wet... But The bloody n'hawk has no prime setting in its petcock... .
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: seshadri_srinathThe new one I got was ridiculously tight for being such a tiny spring...

yep, they upraded the spring tension

Quote
Besides on a nitehawks carbs...If you every let the bike sit for say a year... the O-rings between the crabs will dry up and leak... like a gusher.

Tnx for the tip. Luckily it never stands still for more than 6 weeks. When you let it stand longer than that, it will be a real b*tch to start.  It is already noticable when you let it stand for 2 weeks or so.

But the hard starting thing has greatly improved since I screwed the mixture screws a bit further out. Nice system on the Nighthawk, thumbscrews as mixture screws
The Nighthawk is an imported bike from the U.S.  Now I understand why you are all busy swapping pilot jets.... When it was cold it would barely run.

My n'hawk was fine. Probably a bit lean but that tight exhaust and air filter so far away with long boots make the bike fairly rich. Never jetted my first 2, the third has a supertrapp so lets see what it is like (still a project).
Cool.
Srinath.

Damn! Not that whipping out the soldering gun and heating those stupid screws should have occured to me but I wish I'd known that. What's bugging me is that I didn't use Loctite when putting the screws back into the thing. Since it's a stionary part I didn't give it any thought. Hope they hold secure... Too late now, I'm not going to go through disassembly again not to mention waiting for yet another magneto cover gasket. Think it will hold Srinath?
 And only an idiot would think the GS should cost $7999 if it's going to be equipped with screws that don't carve out with a simple turn of a screwdriver. A real moron. :nana:

Are you a real duck Scott or do you just play one on the computer?

Go price the difference between cheapo low grade bolts and screws vs high grade ones and then count all the fasteners on the bike. Then if you knew anything about industrial processes and what it costs to build, oh for the sake of argument bucause thats what you seem to expect from Suzuki, aircraft grade wiring and electronics. And so on for all the other as-cheap-as-they-can-make-it components on the machine. It adds up quick...

Or maybe you should just shut the hell up and learn to work on your bike without tearing it up?

Quote from: JamesGAre you a real duck Scott or do you just play one on the computer?
Or maybe you should just shut the hell up and learn to work on your bike without tearing it up?

Damn James!!! who pissed in your post toastes today???

One of the cardinal rules of the universe is that you get more than 7 posts under your belt before you Buddha Loves You & moan and open fire on ppl you don't even know...

sheesh... I bet he even has an @aol account...

 added for those who don't recognise hyperbole when they see it...

Quote from: JamesGsheesh... I bet he even has an @aol account...

ROFLMFAO your probly right, I have worked in a plant that manufactured homes before.  Like you said, its the difference in the cost of the GS running 4299 rather than 7999 for them to use premium supplies.  Not only that it makes the GS that much more fun to work on or modify.  You can add what you want (to a degree).  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:

Quote from: seshadri_srinathThe world's steel supply quality dropped from 85-90 or so. ... But in general 85-90 bikes rusted easy.
Cool.
Srinath.

That's quite a generalized statement, based on nothing but very limited personal observation.  Maybe for some unknown reasons, the entire world steel production quality (from every steel mill in every country on the planet) really did drop for about 5 years...or maybe not.
I'm not quite sure how you would document and support a statement like this.
I DO know that there is another factor no one has yet mentioned, and living in New York's Adirondacks I am acutely aware of this: acid rain.  It was a hugh problem during much of the mid 80's until in the early 90's the Fed and a few state EPA's required a reduction in acid rain, mostly having to do with pollution controls in midwest power (and general industrial) plants...scrubbers and the like.  Now the acid rain is greatly reeduced, but it was a HUGE problem, and coincidentally, rampant during 85-90. Rust?  Yuo betcha!!