Quote from: spcterry on July 24, 2007, 03:16:40 PM
One example: If you have the appropriate resources a Kel-tec .380 can be modified to contain no metal parts.  .380 ammunition can be packed into composite casings.  You can hide it in your underwear.

Anyone heard of high tensile carbon composites???  Make great razor sharp knives.  Even in a bag they would have almost no signature in the X-ray.

There are dozens of possibilities.

We spent 2 weeks briefing on this 2 years back before G8.   No planes but very similar security procedures.

Nobody said it couldn't be done, but why make it easy for them? Now, go try those 2 examples at 3 airports and let us know.

Items:

Small plastic pipe.  PVC is ok.
Two end caps, one with a small hole for a fuse.
Matchheads, as many as possible.
Fuse
Matches (for lighting)

Pack the matchheads as tightly as possible into the pipe, add end caps and fuse.  Light... Boom

Matches are not allowed on planes... But, they're not metal...  They could be packed into a neck pillow or any other normal item...  The fuse is also not metal, could be packed in...  Your pocket.  The pipe could be a toothbrush holder or some other normal item.  Now, an assembled PVC pipe would probably get caught on X-Ray and get you searched.....  But, disassembled?  Doubtful.

You could easily assemble the parts in a bathroom stall before your flight left...  You could easily light the bomb in the airplane bathroom and toss it out the door...  The explosion will NOT be like dynamite, but it will be loud, it will smoke, and it will scare the piss out of people and potentially injure people on the plane (more than nail clipper will... By FAR).



Next...  High Proof Alcohol + Match = Lots of fire that's hard to put out.  You're only allowed 3oz bottles, but you can have enough little bottles to fill a Qt ziplock bag...  With 99% alcohol, that's enough to light a seat, the floor, or a person on fire... Very much on fire.  (Although a person would probably be hard)...  You could probably come up with a way to spray it as well...



Next...  Small razor blade + plastic comb (or other flat plastic item) = Knife (aka boxcutter, the exact item used to take the planes on 9-11).  Small amounts of metal will most likely not set off the metal detector...  And if they're placed in a location where there is known to be metal (as in, taped to the inside of your zipper or button fly), you will get through the metal detector.  The weapon could be assembled before take off or in the plane bathroom.

Next...  Non-metal items can be very, very sharp (sharper than metal)...  A non-metal knife taped to your leg (or other areas of your body) will NOT be detected...  Again, like a boxcutter.

Next...  A garrote can be made out of anything stronger than a human can tear...

Now, this one is out there, but possible...  Have you seen "In the Line of Fire" where John Malkovich makes his plastic gun?





Anyway...  I could keep going...  But, here's the point:

If you pulled any of these stunts on a plane (including pulling a REAL gun), you'd be beaten and dead on the ground before you know what hit you.    So, what the f%$k is the point of taking away people's nail clippers?

+1000

My point exactly.  Taking away a penknife is pointless, as are many of the things done in the name of security at airports.  Scanning checked luggage is GOOD, but has only recently started happening and doesn't happen everywhere.

I have NEVER once been asked to turn on my laptop.  I have flown with it maybe twenty times. 

My point about the penknife is why take away a 1.5" knife but allow 4" scissors?  I have some hair scissors that are less than a 4" blade but would be a mean weapon. 

Why ban lighters one day and not the next?  Why allow 3 ozs. of liquids but ONLY if they're in a ziplock bag?

My trumpet valve oil was confiscated shortly after the no-liquid thing started.  It is always in my trumpet case (naturally) and I didn't think about it.  It is in a 2 oz. container.  The SS found it and offered to let me keep it IF I went to the beginning of the security line again and put it in a ziplock.  Does THAT make me or you safer?

Kev: I've worked with NSA boys before who where tasked with attempting to bring a very wide range of weapons aboard an aircraft, posing as a civilian.
Everything from the very easily concealed options above to a completely unmodified m1911 filled with black talons.   They succeded every time.   A little ingenuity can be a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands.

Trumpet value oil OUT of a ziplock bag is one of the deadliest devices in the world, but IN a ziplock bag it's harmless...  Don't you know that?  Geeze! 

I've seen many things allowed through at one airport, but confiscated at another...
I've seen one airport stop people from using a certain type of ziplock bag...  They HAD to use this one type...  But, both were the same size...
I've seen a half-full 4oz container (with 2oz in it) taken away, but a full 3oz container is allowed...
Some places let you keep your laptop in the case and not turn it on, while others make you take it out and turn it on...
Burbank wanted me to turn on my little MP3 player, but nowhere else has ever asked...

Meanwhile, before the shoe law I walked through a metal detector with steel toe boots on...  It didn't go off...  When I told them I was wearing steel toes, they didn't seem to care...




Like I said before...  It's for show...  The appearance of safety makes certain people feel better.

On my way to CA, I had to take my dog out of her carrier and walk through the metal detector with her.  I forgot to take her collar off.  She has 2 tags on her collar, plus the metal in the collar.  She didn't set off the alarm.  That's plenty of shrapnel to put in RVert's pvc bomb.

But they did confiscate my sister's perfume that she inadvertently put in her carry-on. 

I feel safer

Sure, security is necessary.  It keeps most guns and large metal objects off of planes.  However, confiscating a bottle of Dasani isn't going to do crap to make planes safer.

all window dressing that could easily lead to a police state

- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
- "Live Free or Die."

The best statments I heard in a long time. These hold true for every thing in life.

Quote from: Crucialval on July 24, 2007, 08:48:33 PM
- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
- "Live Free or Die."

The best statments I heard in a long time. These hold true for every thing in life.

Let's not forget that during Franklin's life this country had more than just a little terrorist problem.  The most powerful government in the world wanted nothing more than to maintan control of "her" colonies.

America is still a very young country, and thus prone to overreaction.  However, we must remember that the most important thing we have is our freedom.  If we must sacrifice our freedom to the fight then what are we fighting for?

Unfortunately, it has gone far beyond increased airport security.  At the very heart of it all is a president who does not feel bound by the checks and balances set forth in the constitution.  Remember, what we do today sets a precedent for tomorrow.  If we allow x to happen today fully expect y and z to happen tomorrow.

personal freedom in america is a myth perpetrated by the ultra right.  you are free to a police beating, free to be spied on, free to be put in jail for speeding, free to be executed is mentally ill, free to fight die or be wounded for your country and have to fight for benefits,  free to die from illness because you don't have money to pay for health care, free to be poor, free to be poisoned by corporations actions. 

a society that does not spread its resources to the people and ensure their health, welfare and education.   america is by no means the most advanced society on this world with the one exception....weapons or war.  education, health and welfare should be a joint state and federal priority.  divert money from the military, the 28 spy agencies and police and there will be more than enough to accomplish this.

Woowwww^^^^^^

Hey let's give socilaism a try!!!! Yeah because we care more we can make it work this time!!!!

Please note 2 lines above this one do not in anyway reflect my true feelings. Unless you have prorerly interperted them as sarcasm in which case you undestand.

28 spy agencies???   Care to list those??  I'm privy to some less than 'public' knowledge and I've never heard of 28.    You don't happen to be a scientologist, also, do you frankie, because obviously you've been led into believing some complete bullshit.

I used to work the for the FAA before I went to law school.  Once that had me try to sneak a fake gun through security.  This was way before 9/11.   That was fun!!

Anyway, okay the bomb made of matches. . . I still think they would catch that in your bag.  I flew through Atlanta once and they took a q-tip and ran it around the zipper of my suitcase.  Doesn't anyone know why they did that?

As far as the guns that aren't made of metal: they are supposed to be trained to spot this stuff.  But there is a chance I suppose it could slip by.

And sure, maybe there isn't a point to taking away your pin knife.   But it is a knife. They have to take it away. 

Sounds like a gun powder or drug residue test swab.

While there is gun powder in a fuse, there is none in a match head...  PLUS, if you're not stupid, you'd be quite careful about what you touched after touching explosives...  AND you'd wear gloves when touching the explosives.

And... Match heads could be "beads" in your neck pillow...  Or you could put them in a money belt... Or in your damn pocket...   

So........  Can I bring a 3oz jar of petroleum jelly?  'cause petroleum jelly + powdered potassium nitrate = KABOOM!  I'm sure 3oz would be plenty.
And, again.......  If you were smart about it, your bag would contain no explosive material on the outside.



The point is:  If someone wants it bad enough, they'll get *something* through security.  If your average Joe can get a lighter through security, then someone truly craft could get many far more dangerous items through.



And again...  How far would they really get on the plane?  They'd stand up and say, "I'm taking over this pla..." **SMACK** Dead on the floor...   


(Jeeze, I'm gonna end up on a watch list after this thread.)

You've been on the watch list for years, commie. 

Quote from: Jake D on July 24, 2007, 01:40:27 PM
I totally understood where you were coming from.  I don't take issue with that at all and I agree that there should be 24 hour security.

I take issue with the following statements:

So called terrorist attacks.
So called security.
Loss of personal freedom as a result of airport security.
Security measures are a waste of money.
Security measures are easy to defeat.
There has been 1 terrorist attack in 12 years, so why worry.

Sometimes I forget that this is the intenet, and I shouldn't assume that everyone here is sane.

I think one point is that in the grand scheme of things terrorist attacks should not be on the top of our worry list.

Absolutely there should be intelligence trying to catch and prevent terrorist, and we should be aware of suspicious activity and so on.  But, there were about 3,000 people killed on 9/11.  The previous terror attack on US soil was years before that, and it wasn't as devastating.  There are far more people killed by drunk drivers or cigarettes each year.

The money and efforts need to go to GOOD intelligence.  Right now, one of our biggest lines of defense is a bunch of people making a little over minimum wage who are just waiting to go home.  If an attack is well planned, they can probably figure out ways around airport security.

So to sum up... Airport security isn't realistically effective (3oz of liquid is OK, but 4oz isnt!).  And the gov and everyone else is playing on our fears.

Our fears give them jobs. I heard the attacks on 9/11 where something they knew about but did nothing. I don't know maybe they though it was 

no not religious at all just a lefty    i believe that a society should not live in fear and should take care of the less fortunate.  i ran and was elected on that same platform. i am business friendly too having been president of the chamber of commerce so i don't want to run things into the ground.  i just believe that the right used unjustified fear to sell  weapons, expand military budget and spending.  i was just a diving officer in the navy but i know first hand about military abuse of its own and veterans affairs contempt for us.  i'm rambling i know i'm not too sure where i am going with this.   i guess my main point is i believe this country has its spending priorities all wrong.  #1 should be universal health care followed by education. not weapons of war and bullying other countries.

Weapons of war/bullying other counties on one hand.  Homeland security on the other.  With the exception of the legitmate pursuit of Al-Queda, those are apples and oranges.