I have only been riding since July so am in need of some help diagnosing my trans. issue.

I bought a 2002 GS back in July; seemed in good shape with high milage (22K) and the price was right. All I have done is replaced the spark plugs, changed the oil and adjusted the idle.

A couple of times over te past month I have had trouble going into 1st gear from Neutral at a stop light. I have to wait patiently, than try again. eventually it slips in with hesitation.

When staring from a dead stop I rarely have an issue, but when the above problem occurs it seems to slip out of 1st gear when I start and into 4th or so. the bike revs very low as if if i was starting in 4th gear. I can not rev the RPMs or accelerate as normal. The bike still shifts gears and i can get to a safe place to stop, but i have not instant power.

Do I have a chipped or dropped gear?

any help is much appreciated.

the hard time between neutral and 1st is fairly common.


the other stuff... no idea.

It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.

Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 02:17:41 PM
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.

is it just me, or is that contradicting?

it is. But i know what he means.

Still curious about the other issue.

Hi brown,

In regads to your shifting "trouble", that's normal.  Because the bike has a wet clutch, it acts like a viscous coupling when the oil is cold and thick.  This keeps the transmission input shaft turning slowly, allowing the dogs to easily engage.

As the engine comes up to operating temperature the oil thins.  The clutch may no longer act as a viscous coupling and the input shaft may stop turning.  Sometimes the dogs are aligned when the shaft stops, sometimes not.  When they're not aligned you experience the "impossible to shift down to first" problem.

The solution is very simple.  If it won't shift into first, let the clutch all the way out for a second, then pull it in and simultaneously tap the shifter again.  The input shaft will still be spinning when you tap the shifter and will "find" first. 

A word of warning:  NEVER and I mean N-E-V-E-R shift to neutral when stopped at a light, intersection, driveway, etc.  Always be in first and looking all around you (especially directly behind).  Always have an escape route.  If a car behind you fails to stop you have only a second or two to get out of the way.  You don't want to be spending that time fiddling with finding first!   

Slipping out of first may be related to not being able to find it in the first place.   If first was hard to find, the dogs may not have completely engaged.  This can cause the bike to slip out of gear.  Also known as Lazy Left Toe, it's possible to find false neutrals all over the GS transmission if you don't have a positive shifting technique.  I haven't experienced a 1-4 shift, but I did get a 2-4 one night when I was tired and on my way home.

If you're not familiar with preloading the shifter before clutching, we'll go there next. 

GeeP,

THANKS for the information. I will try that next time I am out. I appreciate your tip about neutral at lights and the such. I find it hard/annoying to hold the clutch in for two or three minutes at the long lights during rush hour but I do try to stay in gear until everything is stacked up and stationary around me. I really appreciate the reminder though! I will keep it in mind.

I took the MSF course but do not recall "reloading" on the docket. Can you give me some insight so I cna improve my ride?

thanks again for all of your help.

Quote from: TragicImage on November 23, 2007, 02:45:02 PM

Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 02:17:41 PM
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.

is it just me, or is that contradicting?

Sorry sorry i got confused.... it should not be difficult to go from neutral to first gear. It SHOULD be difficult to go from 1st to neutral. sorry guys

preloading the shifter before shifts, is pretty much just holding the shifter with your toe like you're going to shift lightly applying pressure so taht when you pull the clutch in, your shift is instant and seamless.

I'd try a good 10-40 motorcycle specific oil.I had trans and clutch problems until I stopped using car oils and started using mc oils.Did you change the oil filter?May help.

Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 04:50:25 PM

Quote from: TragicImage on November 23, 2007, 02:45:02 PM

Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 02:17:41 PM
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.

is it just me, or is that contradicting?

Sorry sorry i got confused.... it should not be difficult to go from neutral to first gear. It SHOULD be difficult to go from 1st to neutral. sorry guys

wait, shouldn't it be the opposite? shifting from neutral to first you have to align the mechanism which sometimes requires to move the bike forward. shifting to neutral just takes a small tap 

I changed the oil and oil filter when I got the bike using cycle specific oil

New rider break-in period?  Sounds like the OP is attempting to downshift through too many gears at a standing stop and is opening up a false neutral.  OP should shift down to at least 2nd gear before rolling to a stop, then true neutral will be just a half-tap away. 

I agree with the above and suspect the OP is selecting the `wrong` neutral when stopping and attempting to move off in a high gear. I cant see how the bike can jump straight from 1st to 4th even if the selecter mechanism was faulty. Modern bike gearboxes are sequential and you cannot miss gears like you can in a car.

Quote from: CndnMax on November 23, 2007, 07:57:40 PM

Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 04:50:25 PM

Quote from: TragicImage on November 23, 2007, 02:45:02 PM

Quote from: Kasumi on November 23, 2007, 02:17:41 PM
It should be difficult from neutral TO first not the other way round. Should go into first easily from neutral.

is it just me, or is that contradicting?

Sorry sorry i got confused.... it should not be difficult to go from neutral to first gear. It SHOULD be difficult to go from 1st to neutral. sorry guys

wait, shouldn't it be the opposite? shifting from neutral to first you have to align the mechanism which sometimes requires to move the bike forward. shifting to neutral just takes a small tap 

No neutral is particularly harder to find than 1st purposefully. So as to make it more difficult to shift into it by accident. Some bikes this works on better than others. However if you have a POSITIVE shift movement from neutral to 1st it should go easily, When you get on your bike and start it and tap it into 1st if you look down you will see all the chain wobble as it catches into gear. No matter what position your in if you have the engine running it should be able to go into 1st easily. Sometimes with going from 1st to neutral you have to rock the bike but not usually from neutral to 1st. Thats in my experience on the bikes ive ridden.

The answer is simple.......Just make sure the green light is on 

Quote from: brown.rw on November 23, 2007, 04:08:33 PM
I took the MSF course but do not recall "reloading" on the docket. Can you give me some insight so I cna improve my ride?

Sure!

Preloading the shifter wasn't covered in the MSF, as it is a basic course designed to get you up and functional on a bike.  However, it's very easy to learn.

First, learn to limit the travel of your clutch lever.  With the clutch lever properly adjusted you should be able to completely disengage the clutch with about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the lever travel.  Pulling it all the way to the bars is not required and will mess up your timing.  You can limit the travel one of two ways.  Either use your ring and pinky finger behind the lever and your middle and index fingers to actuate the lever or, develop a muscle memory for "halfway" and use however many fingers you like.  (I use four fingers on the lever and a "memory" for about 1/3 to 1/4 travel.)

Now for the shift.  Let's say you've just taken off from a light and you're getting ready for second.  Put your toe under the shift lever and gently apply pressure.  Feel the slack come out of the shift mechanism?  Now, gently apply pressure to your clutch lever.  Feel the slack come out of the clutch mechanism?  In one smooth motion, pull the clutch halfway in as you flick your wrist to close the throttle and feel the shift lever snick up a gear.   Let the clutch out just as quickly as you pulled it in while coming back into the throttle.  If the clutch engagement was a little jerky, adjust your timing or the amount you pull the clutch in or the timing of your throttle.  The condition of your clutch cable and lever position can make a big difference in how smooth the shift is.  If you're doing it correctly you'll wonder if you've actually changed gears.   

Downshifting is similar, but requires throttle "blipping".  This gets a little more complicated.  It REALLY helps if your bike has a loud enough exhaust so you can hear what speed the engine is turning though your earplugs.

Preload the shifter in the down position this time an preload the clutch lever to take out the mechanical slack as before.  Now, in one smooth motion:

1)Snap the throttle closed with your right hand and pull in the clutch.

2)Feel the shifter snick down one gear.

3)Roll back into the throttle with the clutch still pulled in.  This is called blipping, the purpose is to match the engine speed to the new (higher) transmission input shaft speed.

4)Ease the clutch out.

Speed isn't as important to being smooth on the downshift, mainly because you have control over the engine RPM.  Just keep the throttle steady until the clutch is all the way out.

Rev matching takes a lot of practice.  Mainly, you need to learn what the bike sounds like at different speeds and RPM's.  That's just a matter of riding.  Also, it helps to set up a rhythm. 

Yeah Sledge, Green does not mean GO!   

Thanks for the quick lesson.

I will give all of this a try tomorrow when i get home from vacation. The N light is always on when I am in neutral and I always downshift when slowing down so I am in a power gear just in case. Hearing the exhaust is not problem, the V&H makes it quite easy.

I am not sure if it is a 1st to 4th slip, just felt something like that. If I continue to have issues I will let you all know.

As a side note about teh ear plugs...How does having speakers/ear buds in the hemet affect the ride? I am thinking about down the road when I am a better more experienced rider, but I see people riding around all the time (those with helmets) using ipods and the such. I know you can buy helmets with the hookup, so I am just curious about opinions.

Listening to music is fine but you need to be aware that you will use your hearing to help you to ride the bike, listening for cars around you, other bikes, screeching brakes and the like you need it to be able to ride. I would NEVER suggest having both ear buds in at once while riding, simply because if your listening on your earbuds in an already reduced sound environment you will not hear anything else other than the music and you will not be aware of the things around you. I have however on longer journeys' worn one earbud and one ear plug. This allows me to hear the music and still hear whats going on around me out of the non music side.

To be quite honest its a PITA. I wouldn't really recommend it at all if your driving in cities or towns because you really do need to be aware of traffic, if your out in the country then i suppose the sound isn't so much the problem but it can get distracting if your concentrating on riding through twisties and thinking about your technique. If i listen to music it is only ever  on long journeys to break the monotony of listening to the exhaust on the motorways (where you can't hear other traffic really anyway).

Another thing is to be able to hear the music over the bike engine traffic and wind noise you need the volume up high but when you stop at a traffic light its too loud, its very very difficult to adjust the volume with all your gloves on and the ipod tucked away in a pocket, also your stuck listening to the same music and can't skip a track easy, you've got wires going everywhere you have to route in your jackets and helmet and such.

I just think its way more effort than its worth, unless your going to be on the bike for a long time on a long journey where you need some "company" to pass your time then its just too much effort. Plus im quite happy listening to my exhaust tone and singing songs to myself in my head 

Geep?
I am gonna tell you a story about a pal of mine from the bike club.

About 5 years his 600 bandit developed a shift-fault, it would not always select 1st from neutral and needed 4 or 5 attempts to go in and then it would grind and sometimes jump out. He talked about it at club meetings and followed the usual suggestions...adjust clutch, change oil etc.

He is a competent guy and knows what he is doing and in the end he decided to bite the bullet and remove and dismantle the engine over the winter in an attempt to bottom the problem.

He rang me one weekend and told me the engine was apart and despite his best efforts he couldn't find anything that might cause a shift problem...ie. worn/bent selector forks, damaged engagement dogs, missing teeth etc etc. He went on to ask if he could borrow my Micrometers, Verniers, DTI, v-blocks etc to check the gearbox parts against service limits. I said sure and took them all round the next day.

I took my kit round and he asked me if I would stay and double check his readings, which I was happy to do......we found.....nothing!  every single component was within service limits. He had no option but to reassemble the engine but took the opportunity to replace a few gaskets, bearings and seals etc.

I ran into him a few weeks later and he took great delight in telling me he had found the problem and rectified it........when he was refitting the engine he discovered the shift lever was fouling on the belly-pan fairing, this was restricting the levers downward travel and preventing 1st gear from fully engaging. Seems the shift problem started around the time he refitted the fairing after cleaning the bike.......DOH!..... So what ended up as a 30 second no-cost fix, took him about 20 hours and £200+

I am sure there is a moral in there somewhere