Hello. So I am trying to test my sidestand relay and I'm not sure I'm doing it right.

I've never used a multi meter before so I figure its got to be something I'm doing wrong. Here are my results. I tested the sidestand relay according to the Clymer manual. first I tested with the ohmmeter between the number 1 and number 2 terminals of the diode and got a reading of infinity just like the book said I should. I then connected the battery positive lead to number 3 and the negative to number 4 and took an ohmmeter reading between the number 2 and number 3 terminals. This also gave me a reading of infinity which according to the book is a fail.

I should mention that I have the ohmmeter set on the audio setting so if there is no continuity the ohmmeter reads 1 or infinity and if there is continuity the ohmmeter reads less than 1 and gives an audible sound. I should also mention that I am testing with a known good battery.

Since the relay failed the test I went ahead and got a new one. Well come to find that the new relay fails the test too. I figure I must be doing something wrong.

Has anyone performed this test before? are there any glaring issues with my method? any ideas or input are appreciated.

thanks.

d

I cross referenced the procedure against Haynes to make sure there wasn't a typo in the Clymer manual (they matched).

Based on your description, it sounds like you followed the procedure correctly.

What made you suspect that the relay might be faulty?

Quote from: dchrist on May 21, 2008, 06:56:32 PM
first I tested with the ohmmeter between the number 1 and number 2 terminals of the diode and got a reading of infinity just like the book said I should.

ok

QuoteI then connected the battery positive lead to number 3 and the negative to number 4 and took an ohmmeter reading between the number 2 and number 3 terminals. This also gave me a reading of infinity which according to the book is a fail.

I'm sure you know this, but be really careful if you are using the motorcycle battery; they've got a lot of juice!

Are you sure you've got the relay oriented the right way? Maybe you're looking at it upside down and mixing up 1/2 with 3/4?

Quote
I should mention that I have the ohmmeter set on the audio setting so if there is no continuity the ohmmeter reads 1 or infinity and if there is continuity the ohmmeter reads less than 1 and gives an audible sound. I should also mention that I am testing with a known good battery.

OK. I originally assumed you must have had the multimeter on the wrong setting, but this is the correct setting. Could the multimeter be faulty? What do you get if you switch to the Resistance (Ohm) setting? It should read zero.

My next guess was that the battery was bad, but you've addressed that too! 

Quote
Since the relay failed the test I went ahead and got a new one. Well come to find that the new relay fails the test too. I figure I must be doing something wrong.

I agree that it is unlikely both relays are bad; this is most likely a problem with your testing method. I can only suggest that you double check each step. Perhaps post some photos?

It would help if you could tell us what each of the terminals represents (I dont have my bike here to look at) - ie which pins go to the coil and which go to the latching contacts.  Because if you were trying to measure continuity between the coil and one of the latching contacts, obviously you would get an open circuit.  This information should be written or imprinted on the relay.

Quote from: beRto on May 21, 2008, 09:21:43 PM
I cross referenced the procedure against Haynes to make sure there wasn't a typo in the Clymer manual (they matched).

Based on your description, it sounds like you followed the procedure correctly.

What made you suspect that the relay might be faulty?

Thanks for cross referencing the Haynes manual. I only have Clymer and while I hear its good, sometimes it feel a little like flying blind.

I suspected the sidestand relay because of this post. I had the exact same symptoms as Phaedrus describes.

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=24981.0

Plus in reading up a bit on the relay I learned that they are known to fail over time due to internal rust or corrosion so at first you'll get an intermittent cutting out and then a complete failure which is exactly what happened to me starting end of last season and then complete failure of electrical systems this season. I figured it was a good place to start.

QuoteI'm sure you know this, but be really careful if you are using the motorcycle battery; they've got a lot of juice!

Are you sure you've got the relay oriented the right way? Maybe you're looking at it upside down and mixing up 1/2 with 3/4?

When I performed the test, I crossed positive and negative leads for a few seconds and in no time the clamps were almost white hot!... so yeah, a lot of juice! sparks everywhere. not good.

I also suspected I had the relay oriented incorrectly but after close study of the Clymer illustration I'm pretty confident I had it right side up...

I'll test again and take some pics. hopefully that will give a better chance of figuring out whether or not I did something obviously wrong.

QuoteOK. I originally assumed you must have had the multimeter on the wrong setting, but this is the correct setting. Could the multimeter be faulty? What do you get if you switch to the Resistance (Ohm) setting? It should read zero.

I'm pretty sure its set right but not 100% sure at all. as I said, I've never used one before. I had it on the Ohm setting and when I cross the sensors it zero's out and give a good tone so I hope its not faulty.

QuoteI agree that it is unlikely both relays are bad; this is most likely a problem with your testing method. I can only suggest that you double check each step. Perhaps post some photos?

I'll be retesting and taking photo's tonight I hope. Thanks for the input beRto.

Quote from: philward on May 21, 2008, 10:30:43 PM
It would help if you could tell us what each of the terminals represents (I dont have my bike here to look at) - ie which pins go to the coil and which go to the latching contacts.  Because if you were trying to measure continuity between the coil and one of the latching contacts, obviously you would get an open circuit.  This information should be written or imprinted on the relay.

Thanks, philward. I didn't see any info printed on the relay as to which terminals were to the coil and which were for contacts... so I'm not sure exactly what I was testing there. I was just following the manual instructions. I must admit I am a big time electrical novice...

I'll try and update with this info later when i have access to wiring diagrams and the manual...

d

Quote from: dchrist on May 22, 2008, 09:03:33 AM
Thanks for cross referencing the Haynes manual. I only have Clymer and while I hear its good, sometimes it feel a little like flying blind.

Yep, I own both manuals exactly for this reason. I find that an unclear explanation in one manual is often clear once I read the other manual.

Quote
I suspected the sidestand relay because of this post. I had the exact same symptoms as Phaedrus describes.

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=24981.0

Maybe I misunderstood, but that thread says that Phaedrus' problem was a battery. He ended up reusing the same sidestand relay. 

Did you check your fuse and battery?

Quote
... you'll get an intermittent cutting out and then a complete failure which is exactly what happened to me starting end of last season and then complete failure of electrical systems this season. I figured it was a good place to start.

I think these symptoms could also be the result of a weak/failing battery. Did you try charging the battery first? Or better yet, having it load tested at a shop (often free)? You mentioned that the battery is known good... how? Is the battery new? I think your description sounds more like a battery problem than a relay problem.

QuoteWhen I performed the test, I crossed positive and negative leads for a few seconds and in no time the clamps were almost white hot!... so yeah, a lot of juice! sparks everywhere. not good.

Hard to say, but this may invalidate your "known good battery" assumption

Quote
I'll test again and take some pics. hopefully that will give a better chance of figuring out whether or not I did something obviously wrong.

OK. Although at this point it is mostly for learning. If you've replaced the relay anyways, there is little need to test the brand new part. Does the bike start with the new relay?!

Quote
I'm pretty sure its set right but not 100% sure at all. as I said, I've never used one before. I had it on the Ohm setting and when I cross the sensors it zero's out and give a good tone so I hope its not faulty.

Your description sounds like the multimeter is working fine.

Quote from: beRto on May 22, 2008, 09:19:04 AM

Maybe I misunderstood, but that thread says that Phaedrus' problem was a battery. He ended up reusing the same sidestand relay. 

Did you check your fuse and battery?

I don't think you misunderstood. his problem was the battery but the symptoms started in the relay. For this reason I pulled the relay to test it and when it failed the test I assumed it was bad... now I'm not so sure but I have the part so... interestingly enough it failed with an uncertain battery and what I think is a known good battery. although even my confidence in that is quickly eroding. again, leading me to beleive I did something wrong in the test.

QuoteI think these symptoms could also be the result of a weak/failing battery. Did you try charging the battery first? Or better yet, having it load tested at a shop (often free)? You mentioned that the battery is known good... how? Is the battery new? I think your description sounds more like a battery problem than a relay problem.

yep. I had my battery tested at the shop (a whole other adventure) they told me it was good. 105 life (not sure what that means) and 30% charge so I charged it up and ended up cooking it. oops. I started it charging on the trickle charger at .5 amps per hour. when I came back mabye 6 hours later it was charging at 4.5 amps... and the cells were empty  my bad... it was three years old and had been abused (not stored properly for winter) anyway so I thought best to go new.

ended up with the purchase of a brand new stealership battery. (would you beleive there is not a single YUASA YB10L-B2 battery on the North American continent? I wouldn't either but thats what several internet retailers told me... back ordered.... so being really impatient. I shelled out the 100 bucks 

charged it up and here we are.

QuoteHard to say, but this may invalidate your "known good battery" assumption

Please someone tell me that crossing like that can't kill a brand new battery... it was only for a second!

QuoteOK. Although at this point it is mostly for learning. If you've replaced the relay anyways, there is little need to test the brand new part. Does the bike start with the new relay?!

True. but thats what I'm trying to do. hopefully getting the bike running will be a byproduct of education. I'm still stumped on why the new part would fail the test... perhaps I should just give it up and put it on the bike...


d

Quote from: dchrist on May 22, 2008, 10:02:56 AM
I don't think you misunderstood. his problem was the battery but the symptoms started in the relay. For this reason I pulled the relay to test it and when it failed the test I assumed it was bad... now I'm not so sure but I have the part so... interestingly enough it failed with an uncertain battery and what I think is a known good battery. although even my confidence in that is quickly eroding. again, leading me to beleive I did something wrong in the test.

OK, so you heard the same clicking in the relay?

Quoteended up with the purchase of a brand new stealership battery. (would you beleive there is not a single YUASA YB10L-B2 battery on the North American continent? I wouldn't either but thats what several internet retailers told me... back ordered.... so being really impatient. I shelled out the 100 bucks 

charged it up and here we are.

I thought the dealership/OEM battery was Yuasa? 
Either way, new battery fully charged is a good start!

QuotePlease someone tell me that crossing like that can't kill a brand new battery... it was only for a second!

Probably wouldn't kill the battery, but may require a recharge. What does the voltage across the battery terminals read (set you multimeter to Vdc 0-20V and measure)?

QuoteTrue. but thats what I'm trying to do. hopefully getting the bike running will be a byproduct of education. I'm still stumped on why the new part would fail the test... perhaps I should just give it up and put it on the bike...

I'm all for learning; it's definitely worthwhile in the long run. It is probably useful to install the new relay on the bike and see if it starts. This will give us more information for further testing.

Quote from: beRto on May 22, 2008, 10:17:06 AM
OK, so you heard the same clicking in the relay?

yup. the bike would click (but not like a dead battery.... you know? click click click click click....) not like that just one loud click and then the lights all die. I felt it coming from the relay just as Phaedrus had described. then I would hear it click back and the lights would come back on and I could try the starter button again. then one day the elecricals were dead except for left side dash lights.

QuoteI thought the dealership/OEM battery was Yuasa? 
Either way, new battery fully charged is a good start!

you are correct. none of the online retailers I talked to could get one. but the dealership had 5 and they cost twice as much... go figure.

QuoteProbably wouldn't kill the battery, but may require a recharge. What does the voltage across the battery terminals read (set you multimeter to Vdc 0-20V and measure)?

reads 12.6. but so did the old one... I was told by a couple of people that the volt reading isn't necessarily an indicator of the battery's charge.

QuoteI'm all for learning; it's definitely worthwhile in the long run. It is probably useful to install the new relay on the bike and see if it starts. This will give us more information for further testing.

If its not raining when I get home tonight I'm going to install both parts and see if it lights up. keep your fingers crossed. I'm not feeling that lucky though.

d

well I think I figured out what I was doing wrong in the relay test... after reading up a bit on what relays do and how they work, and consulting a friends klr650 clymer manual for relay tests I'm convinced there is a typo in the instructions in our clymer manuals and possably also in the hayens manual (as beRto cross referenced the haynes instructions for his response to this thread and they were identical).

The gs500 Clymer manual instructed us to test from the #3 and #2 terminals while supplying a current to #3 and #4. The klr650 manual instructed us to test between #1 and #2 which makes more sense... a relay test is a relay test right? so it shouldn't really matter which book you take it out of. the trick is to understand the principles involved with a relays functionality. I hope I've got it at this point but to be honest I still don't have a whole lot of confidence. anyway here's my thinking.

If you look at the side stand relay in the wiring diagram, imagine the terminal numbers running from left to right (1, 2, 3, 4). it's in the upper right corner of the diagram.

http://cgi.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/gs500/Main/USEKModel

You can see there that it is the 1 and 2 terminals that you are supposed to test. the current flows internally from 2 to 3 and so there is no connectivity externally between the 2 and 3 terminals... anyone who has expertise here please correct me if my logic is faulty.

amazingly enough the relay fails when I test between 2 and 3 but passes when I test between 1 and 2. so at this point I'm going to say thanks Clymer, for leading me astray and way to go Dave for purchasing a new side stand relay before really understanding what it was I was testing or why it failed... totally unnecessary and non refundable purchase....

sweet.

at any rate I'll be posting photos of my testing procedure in a separate topic post at some point (once I figure out how to use image shack...)

Quote from: dchrist on May 23, 2008, 07:47:26 AM
well I think I figured out what I was doing wrong in the relay test... after reading up a bit on what relays do and how they work, and consulting a friends klr650 clymer manual for relay tests I'm convinced there is a typo in the instructions in our clymer manuals and possably also in the hayens manual (as beRto cross referenced the haynes instructions for his response to this thread and they were identical).

The gs500 Clymer manual instructed us to test from the #3 and #2 terminals while supplying a current to #3 and #4. The klr650 manual instructed us to test between #1 and #2 which makes more sense... a relay test is a relay test right? so it shouldn't really matter which book you take it out of. the trick is to understand the principles involved with a relays functionality. I hope I've got it at this point but to be honest I still don't have a whole lot of confidence. anyway here's my thinking.

If you look at the side stand relay in the wiring diagram, imagine the terminal numbers running from left to right (1, 2, 3, 4). it's in the upper right corner of the diagram.

http://cgi.stanford.edu/~sanjayd/gs500/Main/USEKModel

You can see there that it is the 1 and 2 terminals that you are supposed to test. the current flows internally from 2 to 3 and so there is no connectivity externally between the 2 and 3 terminals... anyone who has expertise here please correct me if my logic is faulty.

amazingly enough the relay fails when I test between 2 and 3 but passes when I test between 1 and 2. so at this point I'm going to say thanks Clymer, for leading me astray and way to go Dave for purchasing a new side stand relay before really understanding what it was I was testing or why it failed... totally unnecessary and non refundable purchase....

sweet.

at any rate I'll be posting photos of my testing procedure in a separate topic post at some point (once I figure out how to use image shack...)

You are absolutely right... the Haynes does in fact say to test between #1 and #2 in both cases. I'm sorry, I misread the Haynes manual when I "verified" the procedure.

Here's a screen capture from the Suzuki manual (I just checked it now as a third reference source; I wish I had looked at it in the first place):



Thanks for your persistence!

Does the bike start now?

sorry beRto. didn't mean to call you out there.... 

just goes to show one has to double check at all time i guess. measure twice cut once right?

it was pouring rain last night so I recreated the test for photo's rather than installing the parts on the bike so I don't know if it works yet... keep your fingers crossed for me. I'm too much of a skeptic to hope that a new battery will solve my issue... but all things are possible I guess...

the problem with finding my sidestand relay to be in good condition after having thought that was the issue is that I'm right back at square one! at least now i have a good battery and can rule out 2 components of the electrical system as causes of the issue. next up? ignition switch!

Quote from: dchrist on May 23, 2008, 09:28:22 AM
sorry beRto. didn't mean to call you out there.... 

just goes to show one has to double check at all time i guess. measure twice cut once right?

it was pouring rain last night so I recreated the test for photo's rather than installing the parts on the bike so I don't know if it works yet... keep your fingers crossed for me. I'm too much of a skeptic to hope that a new battery will solve my issue... but all things are possible I guess...

the problem with finding my sidestand relay to be in good condition after having thought that was the issue is that I'm right back at square one! at least now i have a good battery and can rule out 2 components of the electrical system as causes of the issue. next up? ignition switch!

No worries... once again, sorry I needlessly prolonged the troubleshooting process.

I still think your problem component was/is the battery. I would definitely install the new parts and test the bike before moving on to further components (ignition switch etc).

Keep us posted!

Have you looked over this simplified diagram?

CLICK HERE

If you are comfortable with schematics, John Bates did a great job on it and it calls out many of the wire colors also.

What is the symptom that began this troubleshooting odyssey?

Quote from: starwalt on May 24, 2008, 06:54:52 PM
What is the symptom that began this troubleshooting odyssey?

Quote from: dchrist on May 22, 2008, 09:03:33 AM
I suspected the sidestand relay because of this post. I had the exact same symptoms as Phaedrus describes.

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=24981.0

The symptoms described by Phaedrus were:

• No lights, no power, would not start
• Battery reading (at the terminals) of 11.7 V
• Fuse OK
• Bump starting not successful
• Clicking sound originating at sidestand relay

Quote from: starwalt on May 24, 2008, 06:54:52 PM
What is the symptom that began this troubleshooting odyssey?

Just like beRto says, I searched on my symptoms and came up with Phaedrus's post where he had a lot of the same symptoms as mine. I would press the starter button and something would short out or it sounded like a circuit breaker would trip and there would be no power to anything except the left side dash panel. I figured the sidestand relay was as good a place as any to start testing... turns out the test as outlined by clymer was inaccurate and I got a false fail. the part was actually good...

I ended up getting a new battery because it was nearing the end of its life if it wasn't there already and it wouldn't hold a good charge. I then went yesterday and installed the new battery and sidestand relay on the bike and.... no change. so I set out testing all the switches. I tested the ignition switch and it passed, I tested the ignition relay and it passed. I tested the sidetand switch and it failed!

Because I'm impatient and don't want to get a new sidestand switch I bypassed it and presto! bike runs. I can't tell you how great it was to hear the engine going. the last time the bike ran was last September! I have a hand full of maintenance Items to take care of before its in ridable shape but I'm right around the corner now from that first ride of the season....

I'm very psyched.


d