I have been running through some of the threads discussion on safe riding, msf and other techniques. I have not bought the recommended reference material yet, but after reading "Nick Ienatsch's article on The Pace" posted by Pantablo was wondering if anyone can offer some advise on the best method to teach myself to brake effectively at high speed.

Quote: If you routinely go 100 mph, we hope you routinely practice emergency stops from that speed.

good point.  i need to do that.  i typically go pretty fast since most of our roads are highways around here.  in fact, the other day i  could have easily bit it when everyone braked for a cop on the side of the road.  i almost grabbed too much front brake, and it was pretty scarry realizing what almost happened!

both brakes, progressive squeeze/pressure, hard. Same time you should be downshifting to 1st with clutch in (to be prepared to move once stopped)...per msf and my memory.

You need to practice in order to achieve 2 things: 1-you need to make the motions automatic and, 2-you need to know how hard and fast to squeeze and still prevent the wheels locking up, and also to get used to what it feels like if they do.

[also, if you do not plan on taking the MSF read Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough-covers all that stuff. If you are taking MSF but not for a while then at least check out the book at local library!]

If it's dry, as above, both brakes evenly, if it's wet, more front than back. Over here you are taught not to declutch or change down until stopped, or almost so. A "real" emergency stop can be a very hairy experience. I have only ever done two and they were about ten minutes apart for totally seperate incidents at about 30mph (the limit) in the wet. First some plonker decides he's going to turn into his drive no matter what other road users are about and the car in front of me just managed to stop, as did I inches behind him, I then ride on fairly shaken up and a kid with a dog on a lead charges out into the road, missed them too but it does concentrate the mind. Practice everything and hope you never need it.

The first time I had to do that (a cager abruptly switched lane) was really scary. I can feel my heart missed a few beats.  As per Pantablo's I normally downshift and apply both brakes instinctly, but when I am focussing on the obstacle in front I cannot seems to let go of the brake lever and this caused the rear wheel to fishtailed violently.

Quote from: kyzee... but when I am focussing on the obstacle in front .

Focus on where you want to go in case you need to make evasive manuvers. Dont fixate on the obstacle (called target fixation).

Case in point: When I almost crashed my friends sv650 ...I came into parking lot too hot and locked up rear on gravel, quickly assessed that I was not going to stop before hitting parked bikes so I let go of brakes completely and looked through my "turn", or the path clearing the bikes...and I missed the last bike by inches.

My friend was not amused.

Point being with more practice you'll less likely freeze up. Also be hyper aware of what you are focusing on. If you were in a curve and thougth you were going wide you wouldnt want to look at the outer edge of road (you'll end up going where you look-target fixation).

Focus on your path-not the obstruction.

Force your attention atleast 2 places at once all the time, never settle in one spot. i know this sounds silly and contradicts what msf says, i realy dont care whats behind me while im going down the road. im traveling away from it. only time im lookin behindme is when changing lanes,slowing down, or im stopped at a light. my attention is focused more to the front andsides of me then anything else when on highway.  being as i dont wonder around inmy lane folks seem to feel they can pass me in my lane safly enough.  :dunno: go figure

When emergency braking, it's the best to focus on the front brake. Forget the rear brake, it won't work anyway because you're braking so hard that the rear is probably almost off the ground. Forget downshifting too. It prevents you to focus on braking hard.

The hardest part is while braking, looking for a place to get past the obstacle. Try to look a bit around instead of focusing on the "target".

You guys, this is just what i needed to read. I was out most of yesterday riding and a rear wheel skid 10 blocks from home almost ruined a sunny 64 degree 80 mile trip. I remember seeing the light turn yellow and it was my fault that i was going way to fast, but i decided to stop and ending up skidding into the intersection    before finally & completly stopping, it was a long skid with steering adjustments and if i had more experience or practice it would not have happened.   So i will read and practice and hopefully execute emergency braking the right way.

One more tip: you can actually practise emergency braking when not on your bike. Sure it's no substitute for actual experience, but this can help build up the muscle memory involved. You need to concentrate on squeezing the front brake progressively, IE take at least a full second between when you first squeeze it, and before you squeeze it in completely. Make a psuedo-front brake with your index finger and thumb of your left hand. Practise squeezing your finger against your tumb and counting out a full "one-one-thousand" before you squeeze to "full-brake".

This is completely stolen from Hough's "Proficient Motorcycyling", which is chock-full of similarly useful tips.

Hey Cozy

Is Chris DiPinto any relation to the guitar makers of the same name?

Quote from: bbanjoHey Cozy

Is Chris DiPinto any relation to the guitar makers of the same name?

Yepper, sounds like five degrees and counting...

Thought the name sounded familiar. I fronted for a band called Later That Day way back and have heard the name before.  

There are quite a few views on vision (pardon the pun) or where to look or how. When racing you're always looking for a way to get around the guy in front of you, you pick a line around that guy and follow it past him. Have your exit routes. It is easier to swerve than brake. But when it's not safe to swerve, where you look is where you're gonna go. There is two ways to look at this (had to do it again). You will stop where you look. Go to a parking lot to practice, pick a spot on the ground, this will be your stopping point, drive towards it and emergency stop. You will usually stop before it. On the street, you want to stop before you hit the car. Don't look at the bumper of the car, look at a spot on the ground where you want to stop. Gradually increasing pressure on the brake(s) til you stop. Remember, this is if you can not swerve. The other is taught by MSF, which is to keep your head up, and straight ahead, looking at the horizon. This works exceptionally well when the rear wheel locks up. Because you no longer have traction at the rear, you have less control, steering inputs cause the rear to slide out. Fishtailing is corrective steering inputs, back and forth (er, right and left). Steering inputs are usually what happens when you look in that direction. You steer where you are looking.

Quote from: pantablo...I came into parking lot too hot and locked up rear on gravel, quickly assessed that I was not going to stop before hitting parked bikes so I let go of brakes completely and looked through my "turn", or the path clearing the bikes...and I missed the last bike by inches.

Focus on your path-not the obstruction.

msf taught us not to release the rear break if we lock it up.  makes me think i need a dirt bike too.    ratialization for it....need to learn what it feels like to have the rear sliding around under me all the time. ( ....saying that to myself 100 times....need dirt bike...need dirt bike...)

Think about the physics - but do this when you're sitting at home with a beer, otherwise it takes too long!  

When you apply the brake, the force between the front tyre's contact patch and the road acts backwards, trying to slow the bike down.  You want it to do this.  This force is exerted on the road which is below the level of the front wheel axle (so far - if you're still upright).  At the same time, because of momentum, your centre of gravity (CG) still wants to go forwards - this force is exerted above the wheel axle because the CG is higher.  The result is a combination of forces that try to rotate you forwards over the front axle, lifting the back of the bike up in the air.

With your back wheel in the air, the rear brake can easily lock the back wheel.  Wheel stops spinning, you loose the gyroscopic force that keeps it upright, so now it's just a dead weight up in the air looking for any way to get down.  One easy way to do this, because of the geometry of the steering head, is to fold forwards and down, rotating around the front forks.  Remember, like you, it's got a whole lot of forward momentum to try and shed somehow, and it can do this and fall at the same time by coming around.  If while doing this it can wrench the whole bike over you will soon be kissing the road.

The trick is to try and brake with both brakes to the maximum extent for maximum effect without locking either of the wheels - "keep them gyros rollin' " or it's "rawhide" for you.  How much pressure you exert on each brake, front or back, is going to depend on the circumstances of the stop.

two words. parking lot!, downshifting can help a great deal, as far as msf went, (mine anyway), 2nd gear, downshift to 1st, while simultaneously applying firm pressure to both brakes. works damn good if you practice.

Quote from: yamahonkawazukitwo words. parking lot!, downshifting can help a great deal, as far as msf went, (mine anyway), 2nd gear, downshift to 1st, while simultaneously applying firm pressure to both brakes. works damn good if you practice.

If you're near your traction limit in an emergency stop, you really wouldn't want to clutch out while downshifting, right?  Downshift to be ready to go... but no power I would think.

Parking lots... has anyone taken the MSF experienced rider course and found that they should have been practicing their skills every once in a while?

Umm, gyroscopic forces are not what keeps a bike upright, so locking up the rear won't cause a problem that way. Gyroscopic forces are a very second order effect, and not really that important in the scheme of things. Lightweight wheels would be bad if gyro was important, and the carbon fiber wheel guys don't seem to be having any problems.

The typical rear brake accident is to lock it up, it slides out, then the rear brakes is released and the tire regains traction, and launches the rider in a high side. Lots of cruiser accidents like that, since most of them over-use the rear.

I typically just concentrate on the front in the dry, since I know I can get the rear wheel off the ground, and I will just lock the rear with my clumsy left foot. But at high speeds, leading with the rear brake will get some weight shift onto the front tire before applying the front. The front has less load on it at high speeds, because the aero drag center is quite high, and this force is rasing the front wheel. Many bikes top out their forks at high speeds.

And contrary to another comment above, in the wet I use more rear brake. Since the overall braking force available in the wet is lower, you have less weight transfer onto the front tire, leaving the rear tire with more load and hence more braking capability. This applies to gravel or any other low traction surface.

i still practice to check brakes tires&myskill. when i referred to the downshifting, adjust accordingly to your situation. if traction is an issue. also the 2 to 1 is usually done at slow speeds where traction is usually not an issue. i used it (going down from 6th @80ish)to avoid blowing a stop light firm  pressure on both levers, whilst downshifting.