I brought my religion into this discussion as a basis of who I am and what I believe in, not to be criticized.  The candidates' religious beliefs can be strayed from mine, however, that is not the thing that I've been talking about in most of this thread.  I've been talking about his extreme Socialistic views.  That is purely political, and hence, IS what the Constitution says to test a candidate on.

I'll take your word for it that you are not attacking my religion, however, with comments like you have made, you inadvertently are, so I will ask you to curve what you say when you are talking about my savior.

The thing is, this war, no matter how you look at it, or what anyone says, IS A RELIGIOUS WAR.  It's been going on for a very long time (not 7 years, 1000's of years), and it will continue until Israel demolishes their attackers.  It's all prophesied in the Bible.  So yes, these things are representative of my Christianity.

In the beginning of this thread, I do admit that I had a few misunderstandings about some things.  I heard things, or read them, and did not take note of their source, and did not research to verify their accuracy.  Since about page 2, however, I have tried to verify any findings that I have had, and for the most part, included the source.  My findings are not ludicrous; they are my opinions made from the sum of what I have found and presented here in this thread.  I have given strong evidence in this thread as to what I base my thoughts off of.

QuoteI don't want you to represent that BECAUSE you are a Christian you cannot vote for Obama.

I know you don't, because you want Obama in office.  But the fact is BECAUSE I AM CHRISTIAN, I CANNOT VOTE FOR OBAMA.  It's as simple as that.  For the most part, liberal views are very anti-Christian.

Same to you

Quotebut I hope that you will be more selective about what you choose to read and listen to -- you're being fed a lot of BS and you're believing it.

Quote from: quiktaco on August 06, 2008, 10:47:10 AM
I brought my religion into this discussion as a basis of who I am and what I believe in, not to be criticized.  The candidates' religious beliefs can be strayed from mine, however, that is not the thing that I've been talking about in most of this thread.  I've been talking about his extreme Socialistic views.  That is purely political, and hence, IS what the Constitution says to test a candidate on.

I'll take your word for it that you are not attacking my religion, however, with comments like you have made, you inadvertently are, so I will ask you to curve what you say when you are talking about my savior.

Go ahead and re-read all my comments.  Please let me know which ones attack your religion.  There aren't any.

QuoteBut the fact is BECAUSE I AM CHRISTIAN, I CANNOT VOTE FOR OBAMA.  It's as simple as that.  For the most part, liberal views are very anti-Christian.

Wow.  Whatever you say.  It must be great to have all the answers, dude.  Congratulations!

Quote from: quiktaco on August 06, 2008, 10:47:10 AM

The thing is, this war, no matter how you look at it, or what anyone says, IS A RELIGIOUS WAR.  It's been going on for a very long time (not 7 years, 1000's of years), and it will continue until Israel demolishes their attackers.  It's all prophesied in the Bible.  So yes, these things are representative of my Christianity.

What?  Sometimes in an argument there's a point where you look into the other person's eyes and realize that rational and compassionate discourse are no longer possible; that zealous insanity has taken hold and will crush out anything else. 

I think we just crossed that line here.  I'm backing away . . . slowly. 

Quote from: Mandres on August 06, 2008, 12:35:49 PM

Quote from: quiktaco on August 06, 2008, 10:47:10 AM

The thing is, this war, no matter how you look at it, or what anyone says, IS A RELIGIOUS WAR.  It's been going on for a very long time (not 7 years, 1000's of years), and it will continue until Israel demolishes their attackers.  It's all prophesied in the Bible.  So yes, these things are representative of my Christianity.

What?  Sometimes in an argument there's a point where you look into the other person's eyes and realize that rational and compassionate discourse are no longer possible; that zealous insanity has taken hold and will crush out anything else. 

I think we just crossed that line here.  I'm backing away . . . slowly. 

That's fine, but I hope at some point in your life that you will come to know God and invite Jesus into your heart, then you will see that it all makes since.

Let's get back on topic now and discuss less about religion.  That was a very small part of the original discussion, and I think it's got blown out of proportion since you guys found out that I'm Christian.

If anything that I say now is just going to be passed off as false, then that's fine.  However, I hope that everyone will look at the content of this thread and see the facts that are in here, and make up your own decision on who this person (Obama) is, and what he will really do if he gets voted into office.  I just don't see how someone can dismiss all of these things about him.

Also, I know Christianity, or any religion really, can be something that many don't want to hear about, because it scares them (although they don't admit that), or they have just been so corrupted, that they oppose it completely and try to fight against it.  I hope that I can at least open one person's eyes to see who Jesus really is.  Please PM me if you have any questions.  I'd love to help.  I'm not a Theological Scholar, but I'll do my best.

same here 

I'm voting for Paris Hilton.

I will not vote for Obama. 

He has had a terrible record of voting on the things that matter to the constituents of his own state.  I do not trust him to obey the his constituents if he becomes the next POTUS. The man has talked a LOT about the "Hope" that he has to "Change" things, and has said relatively little about what he would change and how.

Obama supporters say that His reverend and other past influences shouldn't mar his identity.  If that is true, then others in McCain's past (specifically Bush who was brought up before) should not mar McCain's identity.  It's a two way street.

I don't think ANY of the three two candidates that we have had are perfect for the job.  I can think of someone close who I would have voted for had they made the primary, and that man was Fred Thompson.

If Obama makes it into office, I hope he can change things for the better and that he realizes what a great country he is in charge of, performs the will of the people of the United States, and not of any political agenda, and overall makes the world a safer place to live.  Can this actually happen when we have terrorist groups all over the world that hate us because of the way we live.  Are we going to change he way we live to appease these people so they lay off?  Should we kill off Hannah Montana and Silence Paris Hilton because they show too much skin or act out in public?  No.  in AMERICA, these people have a right to act that way.  A right that was given to them by the founding fathers of this country, and a right protected for them by our kick-ass armed forces who protect us every single day.

I will not sit idly by and watch our freedoms erode one by one with a person of questionable ilk at the helm of a desperately sinking ship.  I will instead back the person whose background and positions I can quantify.

Obama's voting record in the Illinois Congress shows his unwillingness to participate or at least face the issues.  In votes asking for "Ayes" or "Nays" Barack has over 130 times voted "Present" which is a way of saying "I'm here but not going to vote on that issue" and is a way of sidestepping any political fallout.  What will he do with the issues that matter to US the most?

I live in Illinois and do not feel that Barack has represented his constituents effectively.  But Mayor Daley like him.....   

Quote from: laserred97gt on August 06, 2008, 09:44:28 PM
I will not sit idly by and watch our freedoms erode one by one with a person of questionable ilk at the helm of a desperately sinking ship.  I will instead back the person whose background and positions I can quantify.

So I take it you have been out for seven years protesting the Bush/Cheney regime's antics?

Seeing freedoms erode is precisely the reason I cannot vote Republican this time around.  The party of wiretaps, torture, denial of habeas corpus, governmental incompetence at every turn, no-bid contracts for political cronies, etc. etc does not deserve my vote.  These are observed and reported facts, not rumors or slander.

Has anyone noticed that McCain's primary method of campaigning is to slander or distort Obama's positions?  It's almost as if he has no positions of his own to offer.  Maybe he just can't remember which side he's on this week.

anyone else know that halliburton was a favourite of teh clinton administration as well, and that teh contracts were bid out before iraq began, ( cannot remember the term for it, but the data is out there. and why is it Obama plays the race card, when there is no racism apparent?, hell even bill clinton brought that up  , this election year is screwy 

Quote from: Mandres on August 06, 2008, 12:35:49 PM

Quote from: quiktaco on August 06, 2008, 10:47:10 AM

The thing is, this war, no matter how you look at it, or what anyone says, IS A RELIGIOUS WAR.  It's been going on for a very long time (not 7 years, 1000's of years), and it will continue until Israel demolishes their attackers.  It's all prophesied in the Bible.  So yes, these things are representative of my Christianity.

What?  Sometimes in an argument there's a point where you look into the other person's eyes and realize that rational and compassionate discourse are no longer possible; that zealous insanity has taken hold and will crush out anything else. 

I think we just crossed that line here.  I'm backing away . . . slowly. 

I must say i have to agree with Mandres here, religion doesn't scare me but when religion clouding anything rational from the followers eyes - thats what scares me. Thats what makes for dangerous people. And it doesn't have to be just religion it can be uncontrolled and unrational belief in anything but at the moment it appears to be religion.

yup religion acting toward the non religious, or vice-versa

elections are a waste of time. we've been burning up bandwidth, energy (TONS OF IT!), time, news-space, and generally everything on this election.

if as much energy and money were put into actually solving problems instead of electing another stooge to an office that doesn't matter, things might actually change.

1/2 the gov't of the US, and make them get a real job.

my 2 cents

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on August 06, 2008, 10:51:53 PM
anyone else know that halliburton was a favourite of teh clinton administration as well, and that teh contracts were bid out before iraq began, ( cannot remember the term for it, but the data is out there. and why is it Obama plays the race card, when there is no racism apparent?, hell even bill clinton brought that up  , this election year is screwy 

Perhaps Halliburton was the favorite of Clinton as well, BUT (and this is a big but) Clinton didn't take us into a five year (and counting) war based on intentional lies.

Even without the no-bid contract issue (which may be the REAL reason we went to Iraq) the list I gave leaves plenty of reasons never to vote Republican again, unless they have some major change in party philosophy.

Yeah, it's completely fair to judge an entire party by one man's actions.  In that case, let's go ahead and call Mr. Starr in, If Obama wins he's gonna be busy.

SPC, it wasn't one man, it was his entire administration, enabled later by the Supreme Court (with a new majority installed by Bush), and rubberstamped by a Republican Congress (until the American people began to catch on and removed their majority).  It's also the party of Richard Nixon, GHW Bush, and Ronald Reagan (subject of the book, Sleepwalking Through History).  Each led to huge deficits in spite of their talk about balancing budgets, deception of the public, etc.  Just to refresh your memory, Nixon=Watergate, Reagan/GHW Bush=Iran-Contra and Gulf War I.  Cheney was involved in all those administrations except Nixon's.  So was Rumsfeld.

McCain was a willing participant in the runup to the Iraq War, and backed Bush at every turn, despite how he has tried in his campaign to revise history to distance himself from the disastrous policies.

BTW, seven years ago today, Bush received (in his daily briefing) a memo entitled, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside US."  Result of his receiving the memo:  zippo (it was a good golf day, though).  Imagine if someone competent had been in charge.

Quote from: trumpetguy on August 06, 2008, 09:51:34 PM
Seeing freedoms erode is precisely the reason I cannot vote Republican this time around.  The party of wiretaps, torture, denial of habeas corpus, governmental incompetence at every turn, no-bid contracts for political cronies, etc. etc does not deserve my vote.  These are observed and reported facts, not rumors or slander.

You're very ignorant and naive if you think that these types of things haven't gone on in every administration.

QuoteI must say i have to agree with Mandres here, religion doesn't scare me but when religion clouding anything rational from the followers eyes - thats what scares me. Thats what makes for dangerous people. And it doesn't have to be just religion it can be uncontrolled and unrational belief in anything but at the moment it appears to be religion.

That's fine.  Rational is relative.  I don't like this war, and I'd like it to come to an end; at least our involvement at this time.  Like I had said, this 'war' has been going on for a very long time, weather we're involved or not.  It's always about the same issues, and always having to do with religion.  I don't see any unrational thinking in this.  Please explain, so that I can explain my thinking.  Maybe I'm speaking too general, let me know.

Quoteif as much energy and money were put into actually solving problems instead of electing another stooge to an office that doesn't matter, things might actually change. Sad
1/2 the gov't of the US, and make them get a real job.  my 2 cents

Sounds good with me.

QuotePerhaps Halliburton was the favorite of Clinton as well, BUT (and this is a big but) Clinton didn't take us into a five year (and counting) war based on intentional lies.
Even without the no-bid contract issue (which may be the REAL reason we went to Iraq) the list I gave leaves plenty of reasons never to vote Republican again, unless they have some major change in party philosophy.

It sounds like you've never voted Repulican.  You also are saying that there has been no good that's come from the war, however, I haven't seen anymore terrorist attacks on our soil, and the suppression of the Iraqi people has been lifted from their Terrorist Dictator Saddam Hussein.  We've also captured many other terrorist heads and their people have tried them.  We've brought a democratic form of government to the people there so that they can decide for themselves how they want to live.  I don't see all that much that has been bad about this war.  Yes it's drawn on, and yes, many lives have been lost, but not unnecessarily...IT'S WAR...$**T HAPPENS.  The men and women that have died out there, died doing a great thing for this country and this world.  So I ask you to tell the families of the deceased men and women that they died for nothing.  I didn't think so.

QuoteSPC, it wasn't one man, it was his entire administration, enabled later by the Supreme Court (with a new majority installed by Bush), and rubberstamped by a Republican Congress (until the American people began to catch on and removed their majority).  It's also the party of Richard Nixon, GHW Bush, and Ronald Reagan (subject of the book, Sleepwalking Through History).  Each led to huge deficits in spite of their talk about balancing budgets, deception of the public, etc.  Just to refresh your memory, Nixon=Watergate, Reagan/GHW Bush=Iran-Contra and Gulf War I.  Cheney was involved in all those administrations except Nixon's.  So was Rumsfeld.

McCain was a willing participant in the runup to the Iraq War, and backed Bush at every turn, despite how he has tried in his campaign to revise history to distance himself from the disastrous policies.

BTW, seven years ago today, Bush received (in his daily briefing) a memo entitled, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside US."  Result of his receiving the memo:  zippo (it was a good golf day, though).  Imagine if someone competent had been in charge.

You've stated in past parts of this thread that we shouldn't Judge Obama for who he has spent time around and what he learned in school, and the teachings from his church, and his voting record, but you'll judge the Repulican side with the same things. 

QuoteIt's a two way street.

Quiktaco,

You have a habit (apparently) of ascribing quotes and motives to things that people say.  You are free to do that, although it's untrue.

Some good has come from the war.  However (and I speak as the stepfather of an Iraq war veteran here) NOTHING we did was worth the loss of one American soldier.  You're of military age -- why are YOU not there?  You support it and the liars that sent us there, don't you?  Show us how much -- oh, you already have.

I have never voted Republican.  I guess I'm just not "moral" enough.  I tend to care about all people, not just rich people.  I care about the environment, civil rights, and a host of other things that Jesus would care about.  I have never seen Republicans (and I've been around this earth over twice as long as you have) care about those things.  That's why I have not voted for them.   I have voted libertarian many times -- I only registered as a Democrat after W came to office.  I don't think the Democrats are perfect -- I'm very irritated they have not shown a backbone and stopped the evil done by W -- but they are the best alternative, fiscally and socially.

Quote from: trumpetguy on August 07, 2008, 11:11:06 AM
Quiktaco,

You have a habit (apparently) of ascribing quotes and motives to things that people say.  You are free to do that, although it's untrue.

Some good has come from the war.  However (and I speak as the stepfather of an Iraq war veteran here) NOTHING we did was worth the loss of one American soldier.  You're of military age -- why are YOU not there?  You support it and the liars that sent us there, don't you?  Show us how much -- oh, you already have.

I have never voted Republican.  I guess I'm just not "moral" enough.  I tend to care about all people, not just rich people.  I care about the environment, civil rights, and a host of other things that Jesus would care about.  I have never seen Republicans (and I've been around this earth over twice as long as you have) care about those things.  That's why I have not voted for them.   I have voted libertarian many times -- I only registered as a Democrat after W came to office.  I don't think the Democrats are perfect -- I'm very irritated they have not shown a backbone and stopped the evil done by W -- but they are the best alternative, fiscally and socially.

I'm surprised that you've voted libertarian (although libertarians have many different views across the spectrum, other than just less government).  I have a lot of libertarian views.  I'd prefer a libertarian in the presidency, but they don't have a fighting chance, so I vote to one of the two that will count (not going to be a grassroots supporter).  The problem that I have with the Democrat and Liberal side is that they tend to initiate all these programs (not very libertarian if you as me).  I don't want my tax dollars going to anyone.  I'm sorry if that's mean, but I work for my money, and I don't want to support programs that I don't want to support.  These programs are fine, in and of themselves.  They just don't need to be funded by tax dollars and created by the government.  They can collect donations from independent people that want to make contributions.  If it succeeds, then it's a viable program that has support.  If not, then it wasn't needed in the first place.

religion is fiction and does not belong in political debate.  no more than the tooth fairy or santa claus  so let just keep it to the candidates huh?