Having more and more fun riding twisty roads - but have come up with a question that doesn't really arise in the city.

In town - slowing for a corner, I just slow under engine braking, use front n rear brakes as needed, clutch in, downshift to the right gear for the corner, then trail the rear whilst letting off the front so that I can blip the throttle as I let the clutch out... then tip into the corner. I'm used to using the throttle and levers with my full hand on each.

In the twisties, speeds are higher, revs are higher, grin is wider and when you're having fun you have a bit less time. When I try the same approach as in the city I'm a bit short of time for the "blip" - torn between letting go of the front brake and getting my hand fully around the throttle to blip properly. It seems you could do a few things:
- split control on the right hand; two fingers on the brake and two on the throttle to allow you to blip at the same time as braking (recommended technique for sports riders I believe)
- slow down, or release the clutch slowly to reduce the need for blipping (not so good for the flow, and the clutch plates)
- use the tips of your fingers to maintain brake whilst rolling your thumb under to blip the throttle - this is the technique that I've stumbled upon.

So - what's the drill from more experienced riders? Am I learning any bad habits?

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=38355.0

Thank you Dod#i for posting that. Very, very valuable information that could not only create a lot of fun but save gravel rash and maybe lives. Should have a sticky of its own here???

It already does over in "meet and greet"

Quote from: jawntybull on August 14, 2008, 02:31:07 AM

In town - slowing for a corner, I just slow under engine braking, use front n rear brakes as needed, clutch in, downshift to the right gear for the corner, then trail the rear whilst letting off the front so that I can blip the throttle as I let the clutch out... then tip into the corner. I'm used to using the throttle and levers with my full hand on each.

I would suggest downshifting into the corner with the clutch out so you can throttle up through the turn.  Turning with your clutch in is bad practice, you want to be able to use the throttle to adjust lean angle of the bike.  Stay away from the front brake as well in a turn, rear brake only.  Front brake only when bike is straight up coming to a stop.  Hope that helps  

Agree 100% with the pace. The pace is about riding smoothly and as you've noticed when your going slower, its easier for you to think about all those things to do with slowing, gear change, turn in, power on and out, when your going abit quicker it gets alot harder.

So the key point is take it slow. The aim is to be SMOOTH not fast. With smoothness comes speed. And as with The Pace speed isn't 120mph on the streight, its the overall.

Many riders use different techniques, i alternate (as you have to) depending on road conditions. I tend to go for the split hand technique, two fingers covering the brake and use the thumb and other fingers for blipping the throttle to ease a downchange. However it takes alot of practive and blipping the throttle is only another way of controlling how much engine braking you want. If you blip the throttle all the time then you will never utilise engine braking which is crutial for mainting stability of the bike. Everytime you pull hard on the front brake all the weight moves up front, if you utilise engine braking you reduce this and increase smoothness.

The way i suggest people practice is find a road with similar corners going left right left right. Try and find a gear you can use for all of them, then stick in that gear and focus on not braking at all and just letting the bike slow itself down and then power on, and then repeat. Then bring in gear changes, then step up to braking, gear change, corner speed set, tip in, look through the corner, and power on as early and smoothly as possible.

Key is always to start slow though.

Quote from: jawntybull on August 14, 2008, 02:31:07 AM
- split control on the right hand; two fingers on the brake and two on the throttle to allow you to blip at the same time as braking (recommended technique for sports riders I believe)

I came with quite a bit of experience tracking cars and was quite frustrated for a while learning to do the equivilent of the "heel toe" that I was so used to in a car, but this first option is the right answer. With practice... practice... practice, you can get it. I'm still have some room for improvement, but I use it all the time now, and of course it's quite necessary on the track.

It doesn't even mean you're riding hard or fast folks, I do it all the time, on my commute to work too. Again, more practice. In fact, if you want to ride "smooth", it can help with that too. A perfect blip IS smooth, braking lightly but consistently the whole time. Practice it in straight lines when you don't really "need" too before introducing speed and corners. Though you can choose to trail brake, braking into the corner, you MUST get the shift done before turning in. I also recommend while practicing it, or riding hard, just to not use the rear brake at all, one less thing to worry about.

I feel I must address two points I read here:

"Stay away from the front brake as well in a turn, rear brake only."
This is incorrect, please use only the front brake. Unless you plan on "backing it in" like the MotoGP guys.    And of course, I hope no-one is crazy enough to attempt this on the street. Through turn in and up to apex your front tire is heavily loaded and can do the most work. A little rear brake on the wrong pavement and a slight rear lock during a corner... well you might not even know what happened, you'll just be on the ground. This is all of course irrelevant if you're not working the tires at all, cruising around on good pavement, use whatever brake you like. 

"If you blip the throttle all the time then you will never utilise engine braking which is crutial for mainting stability of the bike."
Engine braking is letting off the throttle, engine engaged, engine compression slows you down. Counting on the clutch to bring the engine to the right speed, well yes, that slows you down too, but at the cost of the clutch. THAT'S not really "engine braking"... more like, "clutch braking"?

Shifting as quickly as possible, matching revs allows for the most engine braking and the least clutch wear. And, it's fun!

Quote from: ecpreston on August 14, 2008, 08:33:38 PM


"Stay away from the front brake as well in a turn, rear brake only."
This is incorrect, please use only the front brake. Unless you plan on "backing it in" like the MotoGP guys.    And of course, I hope no-one is crazy enough to attempt this on the street. Through turn in and up to apex your front tire is heavily loaded and can do the most work. A little rear brake on the wrong pavement and a slight rear lock during a corner... well you might not even know what happened, you'll just be on the ground. This is all of course irrelevant if you're not working the tires at all, cruising around on good pavement, use whatever brake you like. 

This is wrong, if you hit the front brake in a corner the you will automatically stand the bike up, forcing you to lose your line, go wide and plough into the ditch or oncoming traffic. The same as when you put power on the bike stands up when you brake with the front the front stands up OR it doesn't have enough friction for your lean angle AND your braking and you lowside. Absolutly dont use the front brake lent over. Rear brake gently to scrub small amounts of speed in the corner, use it gently but its better to set entry speed before teh corner.

Also if you hit the rear brake too much all that happens is the rear locks up, if you've ever ridden on dirt or ridden SM then all that happens is you slide, or drift and can be completely controlled, lock the front or lose traction up there and your f%&ked. Backing it into a corner is a result of all the weight being on the front and no weight on the back and no rear brake, coincidently when theres no weight on the rear it can slide out as you might imagine but looks like its still moving as its stil getting some friction from the road giving the impression of going sideways into the corner. Back brake in the corner, never front.

p.s. what i ment was by the blipping of the throttle to utilize engine braking is you can move smoothly from one gear to right one to get the best engine braking. Not clutch braking - altho they kinda go hand in hand sometimes.

Quote from: ecpreston on August 14, 2008, 08:33:38 PM

Quote from: jawntybull on August 14, 2008, 02:31:07 AM
-Engine braking is letting off the throttle, engine engaged, engine compression slows you down.

For my fellow gearheads:
Compression is not the main factor in providing engine braking: Energy put into compressing the air on the piston's upstroke is returned to the piston on the downstroke.  Rather, it is the pumping losses, that is, friction of the air moving through the intake ports, past valves, into cylinders, past more valves, through the exhaust ports, etc. that provides the braking effect.

Note that several cars now using cylinder deactivation close both the intake and exhaust valves, trapping some air in the deactivated cylinders and compressing it over and over again. No braking there! 

Yes only rear brake in turns, the front does have the majority of the traction which means it's closer to it's limit. You'll either straighten the bike up or exceed your front's traction limits and automatically lowside if you're leaning a lot. I make sure I do all my downshifting and brakeing before the turn. If you don't and aren't familiar with the terrain you can easily encounter the dreaded decreasing radius turn at high speed, then you'd better hope you weren't going too fast and overshoot and crash, because if you front brake you'lll do exactly that, either lowside or straighten up and overshoot. That's not even counting the fact that there could be junk on the road like leaves or gravel. I suggest practicing using the pace and you shouldn't have the problem of braking in turns.

Well I'm not going to argue with you guys really. If you read "Sport Riding Tequniques" by Nick Ienatsch, and/or maybe a few of the "Twist of the Wrist" series, then do a track event or two, (NESBA offers 2 free sessions for intro riders!) learn from and talk to people who have a whole lot more experience than any of us do, then come back here and have the same opinion, I'd be surprised. Have you already?

Clearly if you're fully leaned over, pegs and knee dragging, using 100% of both tires for cornering, there will be NO front or rear braking available unless you stand the bike up a little first. I hope no-one is doing that on the street. But if you're using 50%, having some fun on a country road you're familiar with and choose to do a little braking, (and no, you're not going to "hit" the brake) I recommend a little front brake. The front tire will have more safe braking available than the rear at any lean angle. In the thousands of times I've used some front brake in a corner, it never "automatically" stood up and put me in a ditch.

Kasumi, if you can lock up your rear tire on entering a corner on pavement, slide the rear of the bike out just right and "completely control" the drift, mad props, you clearly have much more track experience than me.    For most, I don't recommend it without a WHOLE lot of practice, and yes, a dirt bike is the way to learn.

I think when people lock the rear up they believe there in the shaZam! completely. Rear wheel locked up is not a problem unless it unlocks too far away from the centreline direction the bike is traveling because it will grip and highside you. If your under heavy braking and the rear wheel lifts off the ground or has very little weight so little traction it will drift out. Perfectly controllable so long as you dont suddenly let go of the front brake in which case the balence will equalise with the rear off centre and your going in the shaZam!. This is how you ride supermotos on the circuit anywhos

Quote from: Kasumi on August 15, 2008, 11:37:18 AM

Quote from: ecpreston on August 14, 2008, 08:33:38 PM


"Stay away from the front brake as well in a turn, rear brake only."
This is incorrect, please use only the front brake. Unless you plan on "backing it in" like the MotoGP guys.    And of course, I hope no-one is crazy enough to attempt this on the street. Through turn in and up to apex your front tire is heavily loaded and can do the most work. A little rear brake on the wrong pavement and a slight rear lock during a corner... well you might not even know what happened, you'll just be on the ground. This is all of course irrelevant if you're not working the tires at all, cruising around on good pavement, use whatever brake you like. 

This is wrong, if you hit the front brake in a corner the you will automatically stand the bike up, forcing you to lose your line, go wide and plough into the ditch or oncoming traffic. The same as when you put power on the bike stands up when you brake with the front the front stands up OR it doesn't have enough friction for your lean angle AND your braking and you lowside. Absolutly dont use the front brake lent over. Rear brake gently to scrub small amounts of speed in the corner, use it gently but its better to set entry speed before teh corner.

Also if you hit the rear brake too much all that happens is the rear locks up, if you've ever ridden on dirt or ridden SM then all that happens is you slide, or drift and can be completely controlled, lock the front or lose traction up there and your f%$ked. Backing it into a corner is a result of all the weight being on the front and no weight on the back and no rear brake, coincidently when theres no weight on the rear it can slide out as you might imagine but looks like its still moving as its stil getting some friction from the road giving the impression of going sideways into the corner. Back brake in the corner, never front.

p.s. what i ment was by the blipping of the throttle to utilize engine braking is you can move smoothly from one gear to right one to get the best engine braking. Not clutch braking - altho they kinda go hand in hand sometimes.

I disagree. Using the front brakes in a turn will not automatically stand the bike up. Some tires are not good for corner braking, Dunlop 207 were bad. I have been front braking through turns for several decades. Racers have been doing for much longer. The fastest way through a turn is to brake to the apex and accelerate out of the turn. Excessive braking can make the bike unstable (especially harsh braking), but with experience along with throttle & brake control it is not a problem.

I rarely use the rear brake. Too much rear brake in a turn can make you go wide. Rear braking will unload weight on the front tire by squatting the rear. Poor rear suspension and accelerating out of a turn gives the same wide exit.

Quote from: Kasumi on August 17, 2008, 10:42:45 AM
I think when people lock the rear up they believe there in the shaZam! completely. Rear wheel locked up is not a problem unless it unlocks too far away from the centreline direction the bike is traveling because it will grip and highside you.

Yeah maybe we're not talking about the same thing here. Locking the rear in a straight line usually isn't a big deal. We're on that same page. But locking it while cornering is! Unless you REALLY have a lot of experience (way more than me and likely most here), not responding fast enough and keeping it locked will result in a lowside, and responding kind of fast, but still not fast enough results in the rear regaining grip unpredictably as you mention and it's highside time!    And yes, locking the front in a corner would be bad too, but I think it would be less likely to result in a highside, AND there's more braking available, so it's less likely to lock in the first place, AND since your hand is usually more sensitive than your foot, it's easier to be gentle and progressive on the brake.