You'll get a puppet from the "other side"?


There ain't no "other side" my friend. Political conservatism and liberalism is just an illusion. It's smoke and mirrors.
Get it? There (in the political arena) is no "right and left". "They" who pull the puppet's strings couldn't care less.
The objective is the same. Just use the one............or the other to accomplish the agenda. The sheeple will
follow. Well..........most of them. You are about to become a "global citizen" and pay "global taxes". Oh.....you
think you do now? Well then,.....................you'll be paying MORE taxes than you are now. How 'bout that?
The global bankers are sitting up in the capstone............laughing at the sheeple at this moment. Get it?

Hey Revere2,

for a long time I've had the same idea that the 2 party system is to keep us citizens intertained.

If I remember right, all US presidents since Ike with the exception of Reagan where members of an organization with an interesting charter.

Any person who is a member of this organization has to resign from it if they become a head of state.

However, if you are a member of this thing, one would assume that you've baught into the ideoligy, so no matter which side of the political aisle you're on, you have the same goal in mind.

Rather interesting.

Besafe
PJ

Quote from: trumpetguy on October 10, 2008, 06:27:41 AM

Quote from: spc on October 09, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
We would never ever ever do such a thing as that would be a blatant disregard of EO12333 and its' subsequent amendments.

I just heard on NPR yesterday that exceptions are regularly made by Presidents, and would be easy in this case due to the "WAR ON TERROR" (add spooky reverb here).  We have done it forever.  It cannot be any MORE illegal than half the stuff we have done in Iraq, starting with the invasion and culminating in Abu Graib and other torture.

Besides the legality, it is TONS more ethical and moral than occupying another country.

and according to john murtha D-Pennsylvania, the soldiers are nothing more than KIllers of innocent civilians, and other suchg crap, and pbamas comment about air raiding villages, killing innocent civilians and shaZam!. hell TG sometimes Torture is necessary. sometimes the enemy does not /WILL not talk. sometimes, those people are the link between our soldiers/civilians safety and not. hell since the "torture" as you, and every other liberal spouts, no other act of terrorism has occured. think about that. torture needs to happen in some cases, cant wait for the courts to order wiretaps, or other actions nor can you count on them to keep their mouths shut. hell 9 times out of ten, i think the enemy gets their info form the clinton news network, err CNN as fast as we do. and those  soldiers in murthas case/accusation were acquitted, and have yet to hear an apology from him

Yama, LISTEN to what you are saying:

"Torture is sometimes necessary."   "Torture needs to happen in some cases."  Wrong. Torture is illegal, it is counter to every principle of civilization, and it is the province of dictators and fascists.  NOT AMERICANS.  I am ashamed that you would think such a thing.

Do you deny that, as war veteran Murtha said, there has been killing of innocent civilians?  War is a horrible and inexact science.  It should never again be a pre-emptive thing, only defensive.  Those who order war, especially an unnecessary war, bear the responsibility for ALL of it, including the actions of renegades and crazies in our armed forces. 

Cheney/Bush, all their co-conspirators, and all of their apologists share responsibility for the murder of innocent civilians.  No lies = no war.  After 9/11 we had the world on our side.  Now we have wasted American and Iraqi lives, at least $600 billion taxpayer dollars, and we have lost credibility.  Mission Accomplished, I guess.

Thank YOU puddle jumper! Absolutely!

Trumpet Guy..........there are times when one needs to extract information by any means necessary.

Yes, that might include being held in a backroom in Calcutta with 480 Volts AC applied to your testicles.

It's one of those things that we have to do in order to get "what we want". God forbid that it happens to any one of us.

But it could..............this old world has some strange shaZam! going on in it. Despite what the "tv" tells us and all the media........
we are NOT getting on "love train/peace train" or sitting around a campfire singing Kumbaya.............

There are very evil forceful entities in this world. Each of us has to be determined to deal with them when the time arises. The way to deal with "them" is MORE force than they apply to "you". They see kindness as a form of weakness and will exploit it to the maximum.
The fear OF the United States of America has been our saving grace in the past. It is dwindling due to liberalism and panty-waisted representatives that are bankrupting our system. There IS an agenda. And it's against US.

If you think for one moment that torture produces results, think again.  Our enemies are not going to give us useful information if we torture them.  They'll sing like a canary, but it will likely be all false.  And, as we have found out, whatever they say cannot be admitted in a court of law.

The worst result will be that every one of our troops who is captured will be tortured and they will feel justified in doing so.  It is wrong on every level.  And you wanted to call the ACLU anti-Christian?  What do you call torture?

What is ABSOLUTELY certain is that we are stooping to the same level as the terrorists (and the Japanese and Germans in WW2) by torturing and condoning torture.  We signed the Geneva Conventions, we have rules of honor in our military.  We insult those who came before us if we lower ourselves to that, no matter what the excuse.

Torture is a must ... I routinely torture all your carbs and they spill all y'all's dirty little secrets.

If torture is allowed, erase it form the blooming constitution, many countries have torture not mentioned. Do not circumvent it and say ooooh, we didn't think this was subject to constitution ... or, oh, that's OK I never read the damn coinstitution, I thought duck Cheney was following it and I was just going by what he said.
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: trumpetguy on October 11, 2008, 09:05:44 AM
Yama, LISTEN to what you are saying:

"Torture is sometimes necessary."   "Torture needs to happen in some cases."  Wrong. Torture is illegal, it is counter to every principle of civilization, and it is the province of dictators and fascists.  NOT AMERICANS.  I am ashamed that you would think such a thing.

Do you deny that, as war veteran Murtha said, there has been killing of innocent civilians?  War is a horrible and inexact science.  It should never again be a pre-emptive thing, only defensive.  Those who order war, especially an unnecessary war, bear the responsibility for ALL of it, including the actions of renegades and crazies in our armed forces. 

Cheney/Bush, all their co-conspirators, and all of their apologists share responsibility for the murder of innocent civilians.  No lies = no war.  After 9/11 we had the world on our side.  Now we have wasted American and Iraqi lives, at least $600 billion taxpayer dollars, and we have lost credibility.  Mission Accomplished, I guess.

taken out of context as i would expect. murtha accused a group of our soldiers of horrific crimes for which tehy were exhonerated. and as of yet no apology. im not denying his service at all. in fact im actually thankful for it. and kerrys and kenneddys and everyones alright, 1 if torure is illegal, where stated?, you said it so you can answer. not google. if i said it, id be expected to do the same. and if no torture, okay fine. how do you get the info from someone who has it. but will NOT divulge?
NVM i stand corrected, just remembered about teh geneva convention ( regarding torture)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention ( looking through it for reference to torture. hell im hurting like hell right now, and my searching is not up to par atm. if anyone finds it in thei GC excerpt, can yall let me know. im sure its there, but not sure where 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture damn i stand corrected again  frig, TG has two up on me  , if you feel that strongly, hell start a challenge in the court system if you must. even if it does nothign. it will at least get you heard 

Ummm, yeah. Nevermind that anyone 'tortured' by US personnel has been found to be an 'unlawful comabatant' by tribunal and thus not legally afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions.


TG, it could be just me but I got a kick out of the irony in you being so opposed to torture yet so ready to have a major ideological figure assassinated without a proper trial.  We afforded Saddam as much, why should OBL be afforded any less?

Frig terry i forgot about the unlawful combatant caluse. damn im down three today  , btw terry when you goin back in? i know you want to 

Whenever the hell St L forks over my 214........we're over 3 months and counting

I may end up back in the Army, in which case they can just run a REDD report for my RE and SPD so I'll be able to sign virtually same day.  I'm having quite a bit of fun getting back in shape for now though and if I end up going back in the Army I'll try to weasel into an 18X contract (Infantry school then Airborne the SFAS)

NICE man, if when you do go in, and more than likely deploy, before you go, we party  that is a- promise, adn one which i will NOT take no for an answer

Quote from: spc on October 11, 2008, 09:27:14 PM
Ummm, yeah. Nevermind that anyone 'tortured' by US personnel has been found to be an 'unlawful comabatant' by tribunal and thus not legally afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions.


TG, it could be just me but I got a kick out of the irony in you being so opposed to torture yet so ready to have a major ideological figure assassinated without a proper trial.  We afforded Saddam as much, why should OBL be afforded any less?

No one who has had a tribunal has been tortured to my knowledge.  It's all been suspects.  There have only been a few tribunals and even then torture-produced evidence has been suppressed.

My point about the assassination is -- which is more ethical:  getting 100,000-1,000,000 civilians killed and 4,000+ American soldiers or black ops assassinating the leader?

Quote from: trumpetguy on October 11, 2008, 10:42:48 PM

Quote from: spc on October 11, 2008, 09:27:14 PM
Ummm, yeah. Nevermind that anyone 'tortured' by US personnel has been found to be an 'unlawful comabatant' by tribunal and thus not legally afforded the protections of the Geneva Conventions.


TG, it could be just me but I got a kick out of the irony in you being so opposed to torture yet so ready to have a major ideological figure assassinated without a proper trial.  We afforded Saddam as much, why should OBL be afforded any less?

No one who has had a tribunal has been tortured to my knowledge.  It's all been suspects.  There have only been a few tribunals and even then torture-produced evidence has been suppressed.

My point about the assassination is -- which is more ethical:  getting 100,000-1,000,000 civilians killed and 4,000+ American soldiers or black ops assassinating the leader?

100k civvies killed BY WHOM and iwth evidence. prob is you can support the "liberal rant" with evidence. cause there is none. cant tell who killed em, either the coalition or the iraqis or the al-quaeda. and the high civvy count has been somewhat disproven before. although it is still there. but again cant tell/prove who killed em. and i respect the liberal POV, although many times i disagree with it. i still respect it

Quote from: Revere2 on October 08, 2008, 08:21:12 PM
Ron Paul was my pick. But I don't want this tinhorn (Obama) as Commander in Chief of our armed forces protecting the United States!

You can NOT have this kitty cat defending the UNITED STATES of AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't you "get it"?

haha. I'm in the Army and I DO want him as Commander in Chief. What now tough guy?

For those of you that think torturing people is ok I have three words

WRONG MOTHER FUCKER.

I'm not sure how America arrived at this idea that torturing people is ok. "We're the good guys and we just need information to save the world. A little harm for a greater good"

WRONG AGAIN.

Did you know that the United States has never tortured enemy combatants, ever. George Bush broke this tradition ending over 230 years of no torturing (Go Bush woot woot, make daddy proud).

Did you know that torturing people does NOT provide accurate information. People will say whatever they can think of to stop from being tortured.

Did you know that by torturing enemy combatants we legitimize terrorist tactics. Don't get upset when Joe Snuffy over in Iraq gets abducted, then terrible things are done to him. You better not cry foul because America is doing the same shaZam!. Oh yea doesn't seem like such a good idea when it's our soldiers being tortured but if it's the other side that's ok. Yea that makes sense.

And the FINAL reason torture is wrong is IT'S f%&ked UP. We're supposed to be civilized human beings. People were tortured during the dark ages. It's wrong, immoral, and unethical.

If you think it's ok to torture people then you are seriously f%&ked in the head and need some perspective. You can't torture another human being because your "War on Terror" is important.

 

Quote from: tussey on October 12, 2008, 01:35:09 AM
For those of you that think torturing people is ok I have three words

WRONG MOTHER f%$kER.

My opinion

Ill ask you like i asked TG, ( and am still awaiting his response.) i do not know your place in the army. but on a side note TY for your service as well. now that aside. if it were your position to "interview" those nmecombatants, and toture being wrong and you would NOT do it. how would you get the info or anyhting from them? ( hypothetically)

I think McCains stance on torture is the right one. No way No how.

Our Intel people in WWII were very good at getting Info from the enemy.
Although we like to paint the enemy as something less than human, They are very much like anyone else. If you are held captive you are scared, lonely, homesick, etc.

A good interviewer can use all these emotions as psychological tools to get info from someone without the torture.

I would like to also give a big Thank You to all of the service men here, My brother is in the service and looks to be deploying soon. This will be his third. He was in desert storm and wants to end his career with one more "Party" as he puts it.
You guys give more than the rest of us can imagine, and for that I thank you!

Besafe
PJ