Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 01:45:42 AMhow would you get the info or anything from them? ( hypothetically)

Torturing people doesn't "get you the info". Firstly, I would hold people against their rights in a prison outside US soil with no scrutiny, no oversight no accountability. Also did it ever occur to you that you can interrogate people with out using violence? Cops seem to do it everyday. Maybe we should ask them.

You can't offer them candy or especially money. You "could" offer them protection from those who WILL KILL THEM if they talk.

If while under torture, one gives the incorrect information (and it truly is deemed incorrect--a lie) just to "stop" the torture, the next "session" will be even more brutal or it will result in your demise. All these things are known beforehand or should be known before "going to war" or even joining the military. In ages past soldiers (esp. ones with a high clearance and knowledge) going into very hot zones with a likelyhood of being captured were given "pills". You knew good and damn well "what they were for".

Face it. It's a part of inhumanity. "What does the future look like? A jackboot stomping the face of mankind forever"--Orson Wells (I think)

Get used to it. Prepare yourself. The people that you hated in High School are now your leaders.

You should ask SPC on this issue...........he probably can "give it to you straight".......

WHAT? The military doesn't torture people? Are you CRAZY?? Of COURSE we torture people. We always have. I guess it must have "different names" or has been "redefined".

Quote from: tussey on October 12, 2008, 08:17:41 AM

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 01:45:42 AMhow would you get the info or anything from them? ( hypothetically)

Torturing people doesn't "get you the info". Firstly, I would hold people against their rights in a prison outside US soil with no scrutiny, no oversight no accountability. Also did it ever occur to you that you can interrogate people with out using violence? Cops seem to do it everyday. Maybe we should ask them.

we cant hold them outside the us anymore, ( as you say). some on the left got them constitutional rights

yeah i'm all for fairness but it is hard to crack down on crime when the criminals abuse the rights they have thereby tying our judicial systems hands.

Quote from: Revere2 on October 12, 2008, 10:38:41 AM
In ages past soldiers (esp. ones with a high clearance and knowledge) going into very hot zones with a likelyhood of being captured were given "pills". You knew good and damn well "what they were for".

Source?

Quote from: Revere2 on October 12, 2008, 10:43:55 AM
WHAT? The military doesn't torture people? Are you CRAZY?? Of COURSE we torture people. We always have. I guess it must have "different names" or has been "redefined".

Dude I don't want to insult your intelligence but you need to get your facts straight. The US does NOT torture (until recently). Our armed forces abide by the Geneva convention which prohibits mistreatment of prisoners of war. In the Nuremberg trials we sentenced individuals to death for waterboarding, one of the torture methods we use in Guantanamo today.  Very sad how hypocritical we have become.

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
we cant hold them outside the us anymore, ( as you say).

We certainly can and do hold them (which is wrong). Guantanamo Bay has many prisoners.

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
some on the left got them constitutional rights

Oh you mean those rights which are INHERENT in any human being? Let me quote, from the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence

Declaration of Independence
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Let me define unalienable for you.
Natural rights (or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society or political organizations.
i.e. They apply to EVERY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH.

5th Amendment (para phrased)
"No person...shall be be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

Consider this a lesson.

so our constitution and bill of rights, and Declaration of independance  apllies to not only us citizens but every personon the face of the earth. ? wow i never knew, heh ill be damned and btw no need ot be an ass about it  and gitmo was/is a place where people considered enemies of this country arent on its soil. , essentially they cannot do us any more harm 

I'm sorry I'm sorry. I apologize..............
Torture was the wrong word. The word "interrogate" was the one I was looking for! Under "interrogation, would being beaten by a strop that was cut to a specific length with a double handed handle specifically built for it be considered "just interrogation"?
I'm just wondering and wandering here........thinking back.............
If a man had a goatee (chin whiskers) and was held and a guy pulled out a large tuft of it with a pair of pliers and it bled profusely, would that be interrogation or torture?
If I was on an elevator headed up to a cell and the elevator was stopped and I was beaten by 3 men with batons until I was a crumpled mass on the floor, is that "a form" of torture?

I think all the aforementioned is pretty mild compared to what would happen to someone being "interrogated" that was a  known enemy combatant and meant to do you and your country great harm.

All these lightweight examples just happened to common citizens that had it done to them or were performed/aided by them.

Edit: Mr. Tussey,
I think we (meaning the US) wrote the book on torture. I think back in '96? President Clinton's Oversight Committee forced the Pentagon to release/declassify the owner's manual for torture. It's methods ran the gamut from nudity to brutality to coersion to execution and all in betweens. I believe the school was in Florida and moved to Georgia and I think it is scheduled to be closed a couple of weeks after this next election. I think it is called the School of the Americas. It probably had something to do with operation Phoenix as well. I was reading something about Vietnam having around 40 "interrogation centers". But I believe that we've been doing it for a lot longer than that. It ain't something that makes the evening news, that's for sure. All this recent stuff (being naked and cold and awakened at night (hell that happens to me NOW!! hahahaha) and being led around by a leash and exposed to live pigs seems like a walk in the park compared to "old school stuff". Peace, love, and sweet dreams

If you still don't believe that torture has been going on long before now, allow me to direct you to a partial showing of the book "A Question of Torture". Please read the last paragraph on page 67 continuing onto page 68. It's here............

http://books.google.com/books?id=-sa-nUI3HGMC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=K.+Barton+Osborn&source=web&ots=FLlAlDYZ-4&sig=AjvSU3D-6u7hqaDj1Y3xS6IKT3c&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA67,M1

Quote from: tussey on October 12, 2008, 09:28:15 PM

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
we cant hold them outside the us anymore, ( as you say).

We certainly can and do hold them (which is wrong). Guantanamo Bay has many prisoners.

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on October 12, 2008, 12:02:52 PM
some on the left got them constitutional rights

Oh you mean those rights which are INHERENT in any human being? Let me quote, from the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence

Declaration of Independence
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Let me define unalienable for you.
Natural rights (or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs or a particular society or political organizations.
i.e. They apply to EVERY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH.

5th Amendment (para phrased)
"No person...shall be be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

Consider this a lesson.

do teh alquaeda fall under the uniform clause of the geneva convention?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E4D71E30F933A25750C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

America has certainly lost its standing.  the dollar is low, our deficit is high.  we have been exposed as a white elephant super power.  we are in another Vietnam and getting our asses kicked.  the greed that has led to our economic decline also shows the world that we do not have a grip on our internal affairs.  so what if it takes 15 years, more or less, to become a citizen.  we have more people in jail per capita than any other country 1 in 100.  we also are the only "developed" country to have a death penalty.  we try children as adults and those with mental illness as sane.  our health care is in shambles and we have over 2 million uninsured.  even if you are insured you can't afford your medications.  we live in a police state that allows citizens to be wire tapped with no court order and allows for detention for "security".   we think we are all that and a bag of chips when in reality we are a fat undereducated society of idiot.  we have no idea what goes on in the rest of the world.  we get our news in bits from so called "news services" that are more entertainment than news.   our standing is truly flawed.

Frank, I agree with your post about 99%. We can talk about the health care later. Now.....................will you please inform some on this forum that the United States (military and black ops) DOES torture people...........AND they have done it for a long long long time.
Thanks man. I realize you were an Lt. Commander and you might not be able to "come right out" and might have to "dance around it",
but..................could you please inform some of these people about their flawed perceptions vs. the truth. Thank you.

yup that economic greed as you call it frankie, has been going on for several decades. we are so f%&ked no matter who is in power. someone or somehting will always have us by the balls